Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

[Gertrude]

No. 

 

I don't think it's totally impossible she got her memories mixed up, but I think it's no more than that. There are no deeper conspiracies or deceptions, so no reason to think it's anything but Braavos.

[Ran]

No.

[Gertrude]

I was reading the earlier poster talking about citrus trees in his neighborhood, where they are not native I assume. I just remembered a local garden tour I took a few years ago. The owner had a patch of large cactus, including one saguaro - this is in Iowa where we have harsh winters. He cultivates it outside during the warm months, and then each year he digs it up and transfers it to a greenhouse for the winter. The saguaro was fairly small (don't know how old), but it was doing just fine. So if there can be a fucking saguaro cactus thriving in Iowa, I have no qualms about a lemon tree in Braavos.

[Frey family reunion]

No, Dany is conflating the two places she lived before being brought over to Braavos.  The house with the red door is probably Chataya’s brothel in King’s Landing, the one with the secret passage into the Red Keep:

Quote

The house was two stories tall, stone below and timber above.  A round turret rose from one corner of the structure.  Many of the windows were leaded.  Over the door swung an ornate lamp, a globe of gilded metal and scarlet glass.

”A brothel,” Bronn said.  “What do you mean to do here?”

The memories of the red door coming from the red lamp over the door.  (Credit to Some Pig No Doubt)

Dany’s memories of the lemon tree probably came after she was moved from the brothel to a house boats on the Greenblood:

Quote

Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider’s web of old canals.  Grain was the first to spy the river glimmering green.  He gave a shout and raced ahead...

They found the boat half a league downstream, hidden beneath the drooping branches of a green willow. .. 

All but the poorest orphan boats were wonderfully carved and painted.

In other words, Dany’s origin probably isn’t too dissimilar from Young Griff’s origin (assuming Young Griff is indeed Serra’s son).  Started out in a pillow house, Dany is moved to a Houseboat, before she is brought over to Braavos, to play the part of Viserys sister.  Later she is brought to Illyrio’s manse.  

Young Griff also starts in a pillow house, but he is brought straight to Illyrio’s manse, where he is given the cover story of being Rhaegar’s son, Aegon.  He is then moved to the Dornish styled House boat.

Dany was so young when she was brought over, however, she doesn’t really have a good memory of where she started.  She is brought up being told by Viserys that she was born on Dragonstone, as a princess and brought to Braavos.  So her actual, albeit spotty memories of her early years gets melded into the false background given to her by Viserys.

[Frey family reunion]

In other words, ask yourselves how to genetically engineer the “blood of the dragon?”  The Targaryen line is no longer the same bloodline possessed by Aegon I and his two sisters.  The Targaryens were dragonless for over a hundred years.  How do you go about bringing back the pure bloodline of Aegon I?  

It seems in Westeros, there are two ways of trying to genetically engineer a bloodline.  The first is through royal marriages.  But another way is through the brothels.  Think of the lesson of the Black Pearl.  A maternal line mother to daughter, carrying on a Targaryen gene.  In Westeros, those who control the brothels can take baseborn girls, dragonseeds, and selectively breed them over the generations, to Targaryens, or Plumms, or Longwaters, or Velaryons, to try and recapture the lost magic of Aegon I and his sisters.

[bent branch]

No.

So many people had start debating the matter I had forgotten what your question was - lol. Anyhow, when the children are driven out of the house they appear to be somewhere on the continent of Essos.

[Platypus Rex]

14 against to 1 in favor, so far.

I know Lemongaters are out there.  Come on out of the woodwork, and brave the collective contempt of the forum.  No guts, no glory!

[Sly Wren]

5 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

14 against to 1 in favor, so far.

I know Lemongaters are out there.  Come on out of the woodwork, and brave the collective contempt of the forum.  No guts, no glory!

Not sure I'm a lemongater.

But I do think that red door is mostly likely to be in Dorne. 

[Nezza86]

Yes. It's most likely in Dorne. Total Lemongater here.

The link to Sansa's Lemoncakes, which are mentioned in AGOT, as is the fact that they have to ship the lemons from Dorne, is too strong to be a mistake.

Daenerys story is the opposite of Jon's, he has no idea he is heir to the throne, she thinks she is but will learn later that she isn't. Jon is a legitimate Targaryen hidden as a bastard, whereas Dany could be a bastard hidden as a legitimate Targaryen. Though I think it won't matter as she will be queen by right of conquest.

She looks a lot like Ashara, and we know that someone dishonoured her yet Arthur Dayne did nothing about it. So that leads me to believe that Aerys forced her into bed, as the kings-guard couldn't remand the king. During the rebellion Arthur stayed with Rhaegar instead of protecting Aerys. Also, it may be tinfoil but her name is basically "Dayne-Aerys".

I think the red door in Dorne will lead her to discover who she really is, and we'll realise her journey has matched Quaithe's advice. "To go North, you must go South" could mean that for her to want to go to Jon, or choose Jon over Aegon, then she must go to the South and discover who she really is before wanting to travel North.

[Impbread]

15 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

I have to admit I'm a little lost as to why people think that Braavos is not suitable for lemons. Is there a map with an actual longitude on it to know for sure? From what I remember of the weather described there, it's not out of the range of possibility.

it is actually stated in the Mercy chapter that lemons do not grow in Braavos. It is farther North than KL. Lemons are known to be grown in Myr and Lys though.

[Impbread]

I also think it was Dorne, but I could be convinced otherwise.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Impbread said:

it is actually stated in the Mercy chapter that lemons do not grow in Braavos. It is farther North than KL. Lemons are known to be grown in Myr and Lys though.

 

It is my understanding that nothing grows naturally in Braavos anymore, except pine trees. But I don't think that is the issue here. I believe the question is whether a citrus plant could survive cultivation in that climate.

Given that these (ostensibly rare) plants would be kept by people with the will and means to try to keep the plant alive, and that the fruit of such a lone or small group of plants would be jealously guarded and kept for oneself, I don't find it hard to believe that the general populace might find a lemon an expensive, non-native treat.

However, that doesn't mean that lemon trees couldn't survive in Braavos. A winter freeze would definitely kill the fruit, but not necessarily the tree, although a prolonged freeze would kill the tree, eventually. It is my understanding that while Braavos gets frigidly cold from time to time, they are spared the worst of winter.

[Megorova]

No, it's in Braavos.

The red door marked that house as house of Red dragons/Targaryens, and the house itself, probably, was a courtesy of Illyrio (or Varys), who gave a place to live for little Targaryens and their caretaker, to be able to control them, and use them later. Though Willem Darry tried to get them out, and thus collaborated with Martells. He was planning to marry Viserys to Arianne. So that lemon tree was sort of an engagement present from Martells to Targaryens. It's a tradition in some cultures to plant an evergreen plant/tree when people get married, or engaged, or the baby is born. Lemon is an evergreen tree.

[Impbread]

42 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

It is my understanding that nothing grows naturally in Braavos anymore, except pine trees. But I don't think that is the issue here. I believe the question is whether a citrus plant could survive cultivation in that climate.

Given that these (ostensibly rare) plants would be kept by people with the will and means to try to keep the plant alive, and that the fruit of such a lone or small group of plants would be jealously guarded and kept for oneself, I don't find it hard to believe that the general populace might find a lemon an expensive, non-native treat.

However, that doesn't mean that lemon trees couldn't survive in Braavos. A winter freeze would definitely kill the fruit, but not necessarily the tree, although a prolonged freeze would kill the tree, eventually. It is my understanding that while Braavos gets frigidly cold from time to time, they are spared the worst of winter.

Fair point. I just feel like she is misremembering her childhood.

[Bael's Bastard]

No.

If she is remembering some place in Westeros, I think it is likelier that she is remembering Dragonstone than Dorne:

The doors to the Great Hall were set in the mouth of a stone dragon. He told the servants to leave him outside. It would be better to enter alone; he must not appear feeble. Leaning heavily on his cane, Cressen climbed the last few steps and hobbled beneath the gateway teeth. A pair of guardsmen opened the heavy red doors before him, unleashing a sudden blast of noise and light. Cressen stepped down into the dragon's maw.

- ACOK: Prologue

But most likely, she is remembering a place in Essos where she actually has memory of living.

[HelmHammerhand]

I'm a "No."  I'm not sure if she was in Braavos but I definitey don't think she was anywhere in Westeros.  Open to reading the arguments for a Dornish exile though.

[Frey family reunion]

The "nothing to see here, move along" crowd here really amuses me.  Especially since GRRM himself has basically said, that yes, there is something to this.

Quote

Q: Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos' cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to some future revelations about Dany's past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM: Very perceptive of you.  Yes it does point to ... well, that would be telling.

 

[Ran]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The "nothing to see here, move along" crowd here really amuses me.  Especially since GRRM himself has basically said, that yes, there is something to this.

 

Finding out that the house with the red door was part of the Sealord's palace complex, and that the Sealord had basically provided them asylum for ends that we do not know, would be a revelation to me.  It moves it beyond his just being a witness to a marriage treaty to explicitly having a stake in whatever was going on from the outset, which rather makes one wonder just what was on his mind.

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, Ran said:

Finding out that the house with the red door was part of the Sealord's palace complex, and that the Sealord had basically provided them asylum for ends that we do not know, would be a revelation to me.  It moves it beyond his just being a witness to a marriage treaty to explicitly having a stake in whatever was going on from the outset, which rather makes one wonder just what was on his mind.

The problem is that GRRM is coupling the fact that lemon trees don't grow in Braavos, with the idea that lemons come from Dorne.  In fact, if you include the WOW sample chapters, he's practically beating us over the head with these two ideas. 

Add to this mix, the fact that there is an alleged Dornish marriage pact signed in Braavos, I think it is at least very possible, that the Martells brought Dany with them when they went to Braavos.

As an aside, I really hate debating you, because I can never tell how much insider information  you may be armed with.  You should front it now if you know something you can't tell us. 

[Bael's Bastard]

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

The problem is that GRRM is coupling the fact that lemon trees don't grow in Braavos, with the idea that lemons come from Dorne.  In fact, if you include the WOW sample chapters, he's practically beating us over the head with these two ideas. 

Add to this mix, the fact that there is an alleged Dornish marriage pact signed in Braavos, I think it is at least very possible, that the Martells brought Dany with them when they went to Braavos.

As an aside, I really hate debating you, because I can never tell how much insider information  you may be armed with.  You should front it now if you know something you can't tell us. 

There is absolutely zero reason for the Martells to have ever had possession of Viserys and/or Daenerys. Their personal stake in the Targaryens was Rhaenys and Aegon, the children of their Martell sister, who were murdered in the sack of King's Landing. And it is clear that in the end Aerys did not trust the Martells, and believed they had betrayed Rhaegar and the royalist cause, and we have no reason to believe that Targaryen loyalists would entrust his alleged chosen heir Viserys to the Martells. At most we can say that after the deaths of all living adult Targaryens, the Martells, or at least Oberyn, eventually arranged to create a personal stake in the surviving Targaryens, by making the pact to wed Arianne to Viserys, but that marriage never materialized. The idea of the Martells ever having possession of, or even temporarily hosting in Dorne, the surviving Targaryens is without basis.