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Platypus Rex

Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

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In Deep Geek did a great video about the house with the red door actually being the Sealord's palace. I highly recommend watching his channel. 

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On 1/31/2019 at 8:22 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, When we see lemons, things don't usually end well...

<snip>

I like this post, there's a lot of truth in it. But it's too soon to say lemons are bad, avoid lemons, because it's possible the opposite is true, and lemons are just what you need to get you through the longest winter.

Lemons could be the ultimate summer fruit: yellow, like the sun; and when cut: round like the sun, and with an internal structure that is radiant like the sun. And like the sun, lemons are in retreat from the north - places that once saw lemons no longer see them.

There are still lemons in their natural home in the sunny south, and I think that's where lemons meet pain. In Dorne there's a place called Hellholt. The Prince of Dorne suffers constant, horrible pain (lots of fruit references too). Oberyn's weapon is a poison causing death in absolute agony. And then there's  Quentyn, who got hit with dragonfire and had to wait 3 days to die. And their sigil is not a lemon, but the sun.

Conclusion: lemons mean the sun, and the sun is fire, and fire is life. Life hurts. The alternative is floating away in an imaginary sea of warm milk, peaceful like.

(Dornish pain quotes below...)

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The prince turned his chair laboriously to face her. Though he was but two-and-fifty, Doran Martell seemed much older. His body was soft and shapeless beneath his linen robes, and his legs were hard to look upon. The gout had swollen and reddened his joints grotesquely; his left knee was an apple, his right a melon, and his toes had turned to dark red grapes, so ripe it seemed as though a touch would burst them. Even the weight of a coverlet could make him shudder, though he bore the pain without complaint.... [AFFC - THE CAPTAIN OF GUARDS]

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[Qyburn] "He is dying of the venom, but slowly, and in exquisite agony. My efforts to ease his pain have proved as fruitless as Pycelle's...." [AFFC - CERSEI II]

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... Fire is a hideous way to die.... So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus.... [ADWD - THE QUEEN'S HAND]

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 2:52 PM, Back door hodor said:

I live in Wilmington DE, which is North of parts of southern NJ, cultivated lemon trees grow here, specifically on some of the old Dupont Estates that are now tourist attractions, the fruit dies in winter but not the tree.

Most likely, the tree is moved indoors for the winter, and/or is given other artificial help.

What sometimes happens, when an indoor plant is moved outside, is that the UV radiation kills the leaves, and then UV resistant leaves grow in and replace them.

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On 1/30/2019 at 10:35 PM, SFDanny said:

It is a clue. Just not that the house with the red door is in Dorne, and certainly not that Dany is not Daenerys, the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. It is a early and subtle clue that Dany's belief that she and her brother were without support from Westeros is not true. Most particularly it is a clue of Dornish support for the Targaryens that is later confirmed by the revelation of the secret marriage pact between Viserys and Arianne. This has critical relevance for the story when we see the Dornish chapters and effects the entire arc of the story as both Daenerys and "Aegon" return to Westeros to stake their claims to the Iron Throne. If you are one of the few who caught the hints Martin left about the lemon tree, then congratulations. Just don't make the lemon tree to be more than what it is. The house with the red door is in Braavos where Dany remembers it. The pact proves it. And she is the trueborn daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, and Viserys's heir. The birth of the dragons, among many other things, prove that.

Actually, I think it's the birth of dragons that actually disproves the idea that Dany is the "trueborn" daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. Being "trueborn" is a legal fiction, what really matters is bloodlines (whether trueborn or baseborn) and the genes they pass along.

You seem to to make much of the idea of being a "legitimate" child of a royal family.  But in actuality, being a trueborn Targaryen at the time of Robert's rebellion has no real connection to the birth of dragons.  

In fact the Targaryen have been unable to hatch dragons since the conclusion of the Dance.  And the Targaryen line as it existed after the Dance and up until the rebellion was descended from Viserys II, (who's dragon egg never hatched and who never rode a dragon) and Larra Rogare, the daughter of a Lysian banking clan, who never had any ties to dragons.  This is a far cry from the bloodline of Aegon I and his sister-wives who came from an incestuous line of dragon lords.

So it's not being a "trueborn" Targaryen that matters in hatching a dragon, it's sharing the bloodlines of Aegon I and Visenya and Rhaenys that's really critical.  

After all Viserys, the beggar king, was a trueborn Targaryen, and what do we know about him?  

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The sound Viserys Targaryen made when that hideous iron helmet covered his face was like nothing human.  His feet hammered a frantic beat against the dirt floor, slowed, stopped.  Thick globs of molten gold dripped down onto his chest, setting the scarlet silk to smoldering ... yet no drop of blood was spilled.

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm.  Fire cannot kill a dragon.

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"He sounds an utter fool."

"Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so.  Daenerys ... Daenerys is quite different."

Now after the Worldbook and Fire and Blood, GRRM has given us a pretty good picture of where the bloodlines of the actual dragon riders and dragon hatchers have gone, and it's not in the royal line of House Targaryen.

Let's take a look at the last of the dragon riders and see where their progeny actually branched off to.

First we have Viserys III.  While his sons had no descendants, he had two daughters that did.

Daena the defiant, who started the Blackfyre line after her affair with her cousin Aegon IV.

Then we have Elaena Targaryen who started House Longwater through her two bastard children with Alyn Velaryon.  Then Elaena's alleged affair with Aegon IV descended into House Plumm through the birth of Viserys Plumm.  Then four children with Ronnel Penrose.  

Then we have Baela Targaryen who hatched and rode the dragon Moondancer.  She married Alyn Velaryon and House Velaryon is descended from them.  

Then we have Rhaena Targaryen, (who hatched Morning) who had six daughters through Garmund Hightower.

And of course we have Nettles, (who tamed Sheepstealer) who may or may not have had descendants).

So if Dany is a return to the bloodlines of the dragon lords, then my guess is that we shouldn't look to House Targaryen, (the line of the dragonless Viserys II and House Rogare).  Instead we should probably look to the descendants of the above named dragon riders, and it shouldn't matter genetically, if those descendants were true born or not.

 

Edited by Frey family reunion

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On January 30, 2019 at 3:44 PM, SFDanny said:

In all alliances there is some use of the other side, so in that we don't disagree. But this an alliance of great risk. Especially for the Martells. If found out it likely spells the end of their rule in Sunspear, as well as the end of any hope of any restoration.

True--but we know the Martells--especially Oberyn--are willing to risk. Oberyn tells Tyrion the Martells are considering crowning Myrcella--thus using her as a puppet to take down Tywin. Even promising to instill Dornish Law over Casterly Rock to let Cersei inherit--to get her on their side.

It's nuts to bring up. It's treason. And he says it right to the face of a member of the ruling family. Doran isn't as blatant as Oberyn, but he is bold if he was willing to make any kind of pact in the first place.

I'd add that the Myrcella plot seems to bolster both of our points: argues that a pact was made at some point (your point) and that is wasn't about Targ restoration but about the Martells using the Targs to get power--while taking the Targs down (my point). 

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As to Tyene's mother being Lemore, I think we have proof that this is not so, or that she is not in contact with the Martells. Why? Because if the Martells knew of Young Griff claim to be Aegon and they believed it then we would see two very different things in our story. They would not be interested in marrying Arianne to Viserys, nor would they send Arianne out to verify the claim. All effort would be to place Elia's child on the throne.

1. This assumes they actually wanted her to marry Viserys and have Viserys rule. I seriously doubt, pact or no pact, that Oberyn would allow that--poison would fly. 

2. And they may very well be intending to put Young Griff on the throne--or at least use him against Dany. ETA: Or to get in the way of YG and Dany--make sure that they don't "bond" without Martell influence--the Martells would want to be the power brokers here.

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If they are in on a plot to pass a known pretender off as Elia's son, then they would not, again, be sending Arianne out to verify the claim. No, if Lemore is Tyene's mother then she is not working with or communicating with Doran.

Or she could have been placed there by Oberyn. . . we know the Martells are willing to work behind each others' backs. And it might all depend on how Doran wants to use the kid.

ETA: Plus there are other Dornishmen on the Shy Maid--Ysilla and Yandry are both Orphans--though their ship has no carvings, unusual for Orphans. So, more than a few ways Doran could have a presence with Young Griff.

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Revenge, the restoration of Dornish power and influence, and the prospect of a half-Dornish king all hinge on the Targaryen restoration. Old angers concerning Rhaegar's treatment of Elia have no impact on those goals.

Hmmmm. . . given what we've seen of Oberyn's ability to multi-task his anger and prioritize whom to kill/expose first before moving on to the next target--I think he could do both at the same time. 

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Yes, there is a big difference, and we don't know much about the reasons the old Sealord of Braavos had for supporting the Targaryen children in exile. Perhaps he didn't believe Robert could hold onto power as long as he did. Perhaps the Iron Bank held Targaryen debts that wouldn't be paid if the were not restored to power. Perhaps they liked the relationship the Targaryens and Braavos had cultivated over the years since the conquest. Perhaps the Martells had a special relationship with this Sealord. Or perhaps the Sealord just didn't like usurpers. We don't know, but the pact shows that he, at least, was willing to host the Targaryens and be wiling to sign his name to a pact that could bring Robert and Braavos into war.

Or--he was willing to go along with the Martells. And use the Targs for vengeance and then obliteration--I just can't buy that Oberyn would go for Viserys on the throne when he could kill him and have Arianne rule with Doran or Oberyn as Hand.

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Perhaps we see the Braavosi differently. I see them as a merchant city based on sea trade. That they have a bias against slavery is something both they and Westeros agree upon, including the Targaryens. Outside of that, I don't see Braavos as exporter of revolution against autocrats. As long as they make money, they seem perfectly happy to coexist with despots and monarch of all kinds. The Targaryens are no different. Now, the rebirth of Dragons may change that, but the history of the Targaryens  with the Braavosi is in essence a peaceful and mutually beneficial one. Certainly, when the pact was made there were no ideals that would prevent them from working together.

Very possible--though I'm not sure we have the full picture on the Braavosi and their motives. Jon notes that he gets the loan from Tychos way too easily. And Jon's no genius--not an idiot, but hardly "shrewd." Why are they backing the Watch? Why do they tell a Watchman they are anti-dragon? That plus the Faceless Men--they know something and are up to something. And I don't think it's about restoring dragons.

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I have no problem in looking for a Dornish connection to the lemon tree in Braavos. I just think jumping to idea that the house with the Red Door must be in Dorne or that Dany is not Dany because of this clue is the height of tinfoil thinking. We have independent confirmation of Ser Willem secreting Viserys and Dany out of Dragonstone and on to the Free Cities. We have nothing that points to them going to Dorne and every reason to believe it would have been a disaster if they had been found there. And Robert seemed to know where they where when he tells Ned, "I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you." (AGoT125)

Right--but we also have extensive evidence that Dany's memories have holes. And that Martin took time to establish discrepancies. Yes, it's character development. But it's right from the first chapter. We have good reason, right from the start to doubt her at least a bit.

And if (if) Dany's a changeling, like Gilly and Dalla's baby (fathered by Mance, full of Rhaegar imagery), Robert may never have known about the switch. Sees two kids. Period.

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I do think Oberyn brings the tree to Braavos when he goes there as a gift to the Targaryens, not to the Sealord. A visual reminder that Dorne is with them. Obviously I don't have proof this is so, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. It just makes sense, and I think it likely.

As you are well aware from my posts, I'm happy to dive down all kinds of rabbit holes. So down I go--question: if they want to remind them that Dorne is with them, why keep the pact secret? Wouldn't the memory of the pact be a better reminder? And if the point is to keep it secret (which it was kept from Dany) might they fear telling Viserys anything? Or are you thinking Viserys was able to keep the secret?

Might work better as a gift to the Sealord--though given the Braavosi's access to trade and lemons from multiple places, seems like bringing him a particularly rare Dornish snake or something might be more fitting--to go in the menagerie.

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I think I've answer this above, but let me add again that Oberyn's "hatred" towards Rhaegar and his treatment of Elia is insignificant towards his burning desire to kill the murderers of his sister and her children. Viserys and Daenerys have nothing to do with any of this, but they do provide a means to get his revenge.

I dunno--Oberyn seems willing to go in for multiple kinds of revenge . . . and we don't have evidence that he's not still angry at Rhaegar. I'm assuming that if Rhaegar were still alive, he'd be poisoned to death  by now--and yes, I realize that sentence makes no sense, but hopefully you get my drift.

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Because Dany's memories are verified by other evidence, such as the pact. There is nothing that points to the Targaryen children going to Dorne from Dragonstone, and many reasons for them not to go there.

Oh! I don't think they did this. No--if Dany is a changeling, she was never at Dragonstone (I don't think). Viserys and his original sister most likely did not flee to Dorne--but Dany's memories of both lemon tree and carved faces on beams hint at Dorne and the Orphans.

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We are talking about whether or not Dany's memories of Ser Willem, Viserys, the servants, the lemon tree, etc. are from Dorne or Braavos. Meaning when she was old enough to remember these things, not when she was a newborn babe at her wet nurses breast. Again, her memories of three or four or five years old of these things are verified by the pact and other things including the reports to Robert that they had escaped to the Free Cities. There really is no reason to make up Potemkin villages in Dorne on the basis of lemon trees being native there.

But they aren't "verified" by the pact if she was swapped out as a young kid. She has no memory of that pact. And I agree on the Potemkin villages--but it's not just that lemon tree. It's also the carved animal faces, the discrepancies in her memory, her Darry's hands and sweet smell, etc. If she's not the original Dany but a changeling, the mixes in her memory would make sense. 

And even fit with the potential echo of Mance's son being changeling-ed out. Though the motives would be rather different. . . . 

Edited by Sly Wren
I really can't spell. Oy.

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10 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Most likely, the tree is moved indoors for the winter, and/or is given other artificial help.

What sometimes happens, when an indoor plant is moved outside, is that the UV radiation kills the leaves, and then UV resistant leaves grow in and replace them.

The ones I've seen seem honestly too big to be moved in and out of doors, perhaps they are wrapped or otherwise covered in the winter though......

In regards to ASOIAF, it's been summer for nine years...

To me the lemon tree in a non tropical climate is not a problem in any way.

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On 2/2/2019 at 10:01 AM, Springwatch said:

I like this post, there's a lot of truth in it. But it's too soon to say lemons are bad, avoid lemons, because it's possible the opposite is true, and lemons are just what you need to get you through the longest winter.

Lemons could be the ultimate summer fruit: yellow, like the sun; and when cut: round like the sun, and with an internal structure that is radiant like the sun. And like the sun, lemons are in retreat from the north - places that once saw lemons no longer see them.

There are still lemons in their natural home in the sunny south, and I think that's where lemons meet pain. In Dorne there's a place called Hellholt. The Prince of Dorne suffers constant, horrible pain (lots of fruit references too). Oberyn's weapon is a poison causing death in absolute agony. And then there's  Quentyn, who got hit with dragonfire and had to wait 3 days to die. And their sigil is not a lemon, but the sun.

Conclusion: lemons mean the sun, and the sun is fire, and fire is life. Life hurts. The alternative is floating away in an imaginary sea of warm milk, peaceful like.

(Dornish pain quotes below...)

When ASOIAF gives you lemons, you go ahead and make lemons. Me? I'll be getting the [email protected]# out of Dodge. ;)

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 8:31 PM, EvanSol919 said:

In Deep Geek did a great video about the house with the red door actually being the Sealord's palace. I highly recommend watching his channel. 

Should I count this as a "No"?

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No.

For the record: I don't think the red door is purely symbolic. Yes it does symbolize something but that doesn't mean that there never was a house with a red door and a lemon tree in her childhood.

A blind alley street sign is a symbol too. Doesn't mean there isn't a real blind alley there.

The problem I have with Dorne is that an alternative early childhood location for Dany doesn't really make sense to me unless Dany isn't really Dany but got somehow switched too as a baby or toddler. I have long thought about all these scenarios but for the life of me never found one that brings all the pieces together in a compelling way.

So I have reluctantly come back to square one and think there is a good chance Dany may actually be who we were told she is. If that's the case though I don't see why she should have had her early childhood in Dorne.

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No I think the red door is in Braavos. Although the lemon tree could be a gift from the Martells to the Sealord.

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