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Platypus Rex

Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

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On 1/26/2019 at 7:53 PM, Platypus Rex said:

This is a poll.  Please answer "Yes" or "No" to the following question:

Is the House with the Red Door, which Daenerys Remembers from her Childhood as being in Braavos, Actually Somewhere in Dorne?

No, the house is in Braavos where she remembers it.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The "nothing to see here, move along" crowd here really amuses me.  Especially since GRRM himself has basically said, that yes, there is something to this.

Rejecting theories based on next to nothing, in favor of what the story actually tells us doesn't mean one says "there is nothing to see here, move along." There is indeed a very important clue Martin leaves us in the existence of a lemon tree outside Dany's childhood bedroom in Braavos. A lemon tree is not a native plant to Braavos, and to those who picked up the importance of this fact pre-AFfC then they are among the few to do so. Bravo, but it is still in Braavos. The importance of this clue is that it tells us Dany's childhood was not as without allies and support as she remembers it. When we get to the reveal of the marriage contract in AFfC we finally have proof of that fact. Not only do the Targaryen children have powerful benefactors that will host them against Robert's will, but there are houses in Westeros who are planning, in reality not just in Viserys's fantasies, to put them back on the throne. The lemon tree is a clue that is meant to point the observant reader to a early hint of this reality.

Lemon trees are native to Dorne and the existence of the tree outside Dany's window is meant to tell the Targaryens that Dorne is still with them. It is likely a gift to them from Prince Oberyn's visit to Braavos when he signs the marriage pact with  Ser Willem which is witnessed by the Sealord himself. The fact such a tree would need special care to grow and thrive in Braavos's climate is meant to tell us that the Sealord has provided the sanctuary that allows those plots, as well as the tree, to flourish. The Targaryen's are not beggars going to one Free City after another. They have powerful allies that Robert cannot easily overcome.

None of this supports the wild idea that Dany isn't Daenerys Targaryen, the Stormborn, the third child and only daughter of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen.

Edited by SFDanny

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5 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Rejecting theories based on next to nothing, in favor of what the story actually tells us doesn't mean one says "there is nothing to see here, move along." There is indeed a very important clue Martin leaves us in the existence of a lemon tree outside Dany's childhood bedroom in Braavos. 

If you believe the lemon tree is an "important clue", then you are not one of the "nothing to see here, move along" people.  You are (if you really mean what you say) a lemongater, just not a Dornish one, 

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No, again, I understood what you were proposing, but it is without foundation in the books. As I said, Viserys was clearly never trusted with being informed of his wedding pact. He was clearly not "a part of it," as you propose. Daenerys, Quentyn, and Doran make clear that Viserys was not and would not have been informed of any such plans. The idea of sniveling brat Viserys being in on the plot is ridiculous.

Yup this has always been my problem with these theories. Viserys has neither the temperament or intelligence to be part of any said conspiracies.

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16 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

None of this supports the wild idea that Dany isn't Daenerys Targaryen, the Stormborn, the third child and only daughter of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen.

Not sure why it's a "wild idea" since it's basically the same scenario that we're seeing play out with Young Griff.  Someone with the suitable looks, and perhaps even certain bloodlines being represented as something he's not.  If it can happen with him, who's to say it cant' happen with Dany?

After all, we're given a scenario where Dany's childhood memories aren't necessarily adding up with her supposed origin. 

But, for arguments sake, do you think it would lessen Dany, to find out that she might not be an actual Targaryen princess? 

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Nope. It's in Braavos - most likely the Sealord's Palace. Given that he was the witness of the marriage pact between Viserys and Arianne, it makes sense.

Edited by Faera

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1 minute ago, Platypus Rex said:

If you believe the lemon tree is an "important clue", then you are not one of the "nothing to see here, move along" people.  You are (if you really mean what you say) a lemongater, just not a Dornish one, 

Not even close to one. Recognizing a clue as a clue doesn't mean supporting theories derived from the clue. The controversy over the lemon tree has grown in some parts of fandom to equal some of the craziest of theories in existence. None of which the text supports. You can read what I think of some of them in an old thread entitled "Is Dany really Dany?"

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One last science from me too:

1 hour ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

I've noticed that most plants couldn't care less about the temperature as long as it isn't extremely hot or extremely cold, i.e. no scorching or freezing temperatures. The two things that they seem to need the most/little of, if it is their particular need, are light and/or humidity. We have palm trees here too and they love the wet air even if it is cold. They grow just as tall/lush as in the tropics. It rarely freezes here, but it does get close at night in the winter, enough sometimes to have frost on the grass until the sun gets up. People have lost sensitive plants, especially fruit trees and rose bushes.

I agree: Most plants get along quite well, as long as it doesn't freeze for a too long period of time or gets really too cold for them. I would say it's colder here then where you live, but still I had my south African pelargonia outside this winter, and they were okay, as long as the temperature did not fall under -8°C for too long. Even after we forgot to take them in the last week, they still are alive; they sure were not happy about three days in between -8 and -13°C and lost a lot of their branches, but they are alive, even the little once. And we are not talking about trees here, which have a much better way to cope with not-so-ideal weather.

And just to give some other examples: Central Europe surely isn't the most warm of regions, but in the Upper Rhine Plain they grow fig and almonds, because the weather is mild, even if it can get quite frosty even there. And even here (much farther east from the Rhine) a friend of mine planted a fig in his garden: Sure, he has to cover the ground around it in winter and puts its lower trunk and larger branches in bubble wrap, but it's still a bady and it works well. Dany's lemon tree also stands in a sheltered garden with walls, so it has not to cope with too much winter winds.

1 hour ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

raavos can get colder as the canals occasionally freeze IIRC, but it doesn't seem to be the norm in any way. The only thing so far I can see in the way of the house not being in Braavos is what I stated before, the weather. It seems to me that Dany would remember the lemon tree in terms of being one of the bright spots in an otherwise windy, clammy and sometimes rainy place, at least in the "winterish months" before a proper winter, but I don't recall any passages like that off the top of my head.

Actually, I think Braavos could be compared to the northern Adria/the Balkans, climate wise, but somewhat milder, because they have more water around them and no Alps and Dinarides around them. And lemon trees DO grow quite well there, they even export them, at least Croatia does - here a random picture of winter in Croatia, on the coast (may not be soo often, but it happens; maybe someone from the Adriatic states can elaborate on this more):

Winter_bora_in_Senj.jpg

Dany was in Braavos in the summer, and as Planetos' season may last many years we don't get an impression of winter in Braavos from her, and also no picture of a leafless and packed up (or unburied even stored away) lemon tree. :)

P.S. Pictures not working :(

Edited by Morte
Edited pictures, did not work and typo

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What if the lemon tree was exported from Dorne to Braavos' Sealord Palace by Oberyn Martell, in recognition of the secret marriage pact?

Edited by The Map Guy

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There is no reason this was not in Braavos.

And Dany is exactly who she says she is. There is no mystery around who her parents were and where she was born. 

She names all the places she has lived in, Braavos, Myr, Tyrosh, Qohor, Volantis, Lys. She never mentions Dorne and she would have been old enough to remember it. The girl is not an idiot, she would know the difference between Dorne and Braavos, if for nothing else than the climate is completely different.

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7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

She never mentions Dorne and she would have been old enough to remember it. 

Would not that depend on how old she was when she was there?

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34 minutes ago, Morte said:

Actually, I think Braavos could be compared to the northern Adria/the Balkans, climate wise, but somewhat milder, because they have more water around them and no Alps and Dinarides around them. And lemon trees DO grow quite well there, they even export them, at least Croatia does -

Would it not me more appropriate to compare the Northern Adriatic to Slavers Bay?  Just across the sea from Sothyros (analogous to Africa)?  How often does seawater freeze in the Northern Adriatic?  I hear the brackish water of the canals of Venice (not even pure salt water) can freeze, but does so only a handful times in a century. 

If the northern Adriatic gets no almost no sunlight, because they have three types of weather, rain freezing rain (in the autumn), and fog; and if sunny days are rare; and if the shorelines are dominated by pine trees, then that might be comparable to Braavos.

But a more appropriate comparison would be those regions that have a lot of cloud cover, and very little sun.  Like the Farao Islands, or (less extreme) Dublin and Edinburgh.  But I doubt even these regions are as extreme as Braavos is described to be.

 

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On 1/27/2019 at 4:53 AM, Platypus Rex said:

This is a poll.  Please answer "Yes" or "No" to the following question:

Is the House with the Red Door, which Daenerys Remembers from her Childhood as being in Braavos, Actually Somewhere in Dorne?

For context, this obviously relates to an idea dubbed "Lemongate", "Lemongate", by itself, means only that the lemon-tree outside Dany's window, and its seeming inconsistency with the climate of Braavos, is a clue to some mystery or secret about Dany's past.  However, "the lemon tree means something", by itself, is not much of a theory.  Slightly braver theorists have guessed that the lemon tree is a signal that the house with the red door is actually somewhere far to the south of Braavos, such as Lys, or Myr or Tyrosh or Dorne (which, for various reasons, is the top suspect), or any other place whose climate might be more friendly to lemons.  Those who reject this idea prefer other explanations for the lemon tree, such as (for instance) Dany was staying at the Sealord's Palace, who maintains a garden, and a menagerie of exotic species.  Still others reject "Lemongate" entirely, arguing that the lemon-tree has no significance at all, and is (for instance) merely a discrepancy left over from an early draft, when her city of exile was situated in the South.

Even braver theorists, have connected these ideas with more elaborate theories, and guessed that Dany is not, as she believes, actually the daughter of Rhaella, born on Dragonstone, but the child of other parents, such as Ashara, or Lyanna, or some random Lysene prostitute or lowborn slave.  However, the above question does not ask you to take a position on such issues.  The question to be answered is simply as stated above in bold.

Please feel free to give reasons for your answers, or otherwise elaborate.  However, please do not argue with the reasons given by other posters for at least a couple of pages.  After that, have at it.

Thanks in advance to all voters.

EDIT:  5 in favor to 24 against, so far.

For "Yes":  TPTWP Timett, Sly Wren, Nezza86, Impbread, Sophia Wilson17.

For "No":  Wolf's Bane, chrisdaw. Back door hodor, Ygrain, King Aegon I Targaryen, Vaith, Bowen 747, White Ravens, Missing Benjen, Three-Fingered Pete, Gertrude, Ran, Frey family reunion, bent branch, Megavora, Bael's Bastard, HelmHammerhand, The Map Guy, Morte, SFDanny, Wolf of the Steppes, Faera, Alexis-something-Rose, OtherFromAnotherMother.

----------------------------------------------

Previous "Unpopular Theory" Polls:

"Did Summer See a Dragon?":  7 for to 36 against (16.3%).  Supported by:  Legitimate_Bastard, rustythesmith, TPTWP Timett, Remirem, kleevedge, Gertrude, and sweetsunray

"Did Jojen Die Off-Page in DANCE?":  12 for to 29 against (29.3%).  Supported by:  Gertrude, chrisdaw, WyldFyre, Penny's Got a Gun, Megavora, Back door hodor, Lost Melnibonean, Tucu, acwill07, Ibbison from Ibben, Son of Man, and Remiem. 

Yes, but it could also be somewhere else, other than Braavos. I think its a clue to some secret. Together with Barristan thinking that Dany has the same haunting eyes as Ashara Dayne and that looking at Dany feels like looking at Asharas daughter - which is a gem quite cleverly squeezed in between more interesting musings about Rhaegar towards the end of Dance, it looks like clues to me. 

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16 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Would not that depend on how old she was when she was there?

Age obviously factors in. But she remembers other things from that time. She remembers Willem Darry well enough. She tells us he half-blind, that the servants were scared of him, that he called her little princess, that he was so sick that he never left his bed and she tells us how he smelled because of his sickness.

And when she sees him in the HotU, he has a cane, so that's also something that's part of her memories. So Dany must have been old enough to remember all these things. These things in her life made an impression on her. She was happy in the house with the red door and Willem Darry was part of that, so she remembers him well enough as well. And when he died, she lost that.

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42 minutes ago, Morte said:

And just to give some other examples: Central Europe surely isn't the most warm of regions, but in the Upper Rhine Plain they grow fig and almonds, because the weather is mild, even if it can get quite frosty even there. And even here (much farther east from the Rhine) a friend of mine planted a fig in his garden: Sure, he has to cover the ground around it in winter and puts its lower trunk and larger branches in bubble wrap, but it's still a bady and it works well.

 

I'm a little surprised by that since I was in Rothenburg Germany (the middle of the country) in mid-July many, many moons ago and they were socked in like it was mid-January anywhere else. We asked the woman at our bed and breakfast if the sun ever came out there. She just stared at us, grim and unsmiling, and said, "No."

 

48 minutes ago, Morte said:

Dany was in Braavos in the summer, and as Planetos' season may last many years we don't get an impression of winter in Braavos from her, and also no picture of a leafless and packed up (or unburied even stored away) lemon tree. :)

 

Even though they have these extended "super-seasons", I always assumed that the planet has milder "regular" seasons on an cyclic basis. Otherwise no flowering plants could grow unless they were all like some form of century plant that could wait out unpredictably long droughts/tundra conditions and take advantage of overly long wet seasons. Grasses would be almost an impossibility. And fruits and nuts? Forget it. They need bees (or other pollinators) and bees need nectar for honey and nectar requires flowers that bloom every year. (I wasn't going to get all science-y again, look what you made me do!)

So, I'd at least expect that there was a rainy season (those pines don't grow on sea water) since the Sweetwater has to get replenished from somewhere. Just because Dany didn't recollect on it doesn't mean it didn't rain. She may just choose to remember the sunny, happy days there.

 

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Daenerys is clearly a secret Blackfyre originally from Tyrosh, the home-in-exile of House Blackfyre.

The merchant in Vaes Dothrak guesses that she is Tyroshi, and she acknowledges that her speech is Tyroshi, and she fondly remembers the baked honeyfingers she used to buy in Tyrosh as a little girl (AGOT: Daenerys VI).

It was Rohanne of Tyrosh, daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh, who wed Daemon Blackfyre in 184 AC and gave him seven sons and daughters.

It was to Tyrosh, their mother's home city, that the surviving sons of Daemon Blackfyre fled with Bittersteel after the failure of the First Blackfyre Rebellion in 196 AC.

It was presumably from Tyrosh that Daemon Blackfyre's third and eldest surviving son Daemon II crossed the narrow sea from in 212 AC.

It was presumably from Tyrosh that Daemon Blackfyre's fourth and eldest surviving son Haegon I and Bittersteel set off from to launch the Third Blackfyre Rebellion in 219 AC.

It was in Tyrosh that the escaped Bittersteel crowned Haegon's eldest son as Daemon III before the year was out in 219 AC.

It was from Tyrosh that Daemon Blackfyre's fifth and eldest surviving son Aenys wrote to put forth his case for the Great Council in 233 AC.

It was presumably from Tyrosh that Haegon's eldest son Daemon III, who had been crowned in 219 AC, and Bittersteel set off from to launch the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion in 236 AC.

Tyrosh was the home of the wife of Daemon Blackfyre, the mother of all Daemon Blackfyre's descendants, and appears to have operated as their home in exile for forty years after the defeat of the First Blackfyre Rebellion in 196 AC.

So Daenerys is clearly a secret Blackfyre from Tyrosh, the home-in-exile of House Blackfyre. :P

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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12 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Would it not me more appropriate to compare the Northern Adriatic to Slavers Bay?  Just across the sea from Sothyros (analogous to Africa)?  How often does seawater freeze in the Northern Adriatic?  I hear the brackish water of the canals of Venice (not even pure salt water) can freeze, but does so only a handful times in a century. 

If the northern Adriatic gets no almost no sunlight, because they have three types of weather, rain freezing rain (in the autumn), and fog; and if sunny days are rare; and if the shorelines are dominated by pine trees, then that might be comparable to Braavos.

Venice is on the southern shore of the Adria, and even there you get a autumn just as you described it; because this is what your description is about: autumn in Braavos: foggy, wet and "cold" (because people will feel cold much sooner then it is wet, it doesn't need to be even near the freezing point).

And Venice IS foggy and wet in last summer, autumn and winter; and it's not as warm and sunny as you would think, at least not in winter; and across the Adria it's simply is even a little bit colder.

Beside: This part was about lemon trees growing in cold places. ;)

16 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

But a more appropriate comparison would be those regions that have a lot of cloud cover, and very little sun.  Like the Farao Islands, or (less extreme) Dublin and Edinburgh.  But I doubt even these regions are as extreme as Braavos is described to be.

Depends if you are talking about Braavos in summer (Dany) or Braavos in late autumn (Arya and Sam), me thinks.

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Braavos.

Guess it depends on how far one wants to delve into the "red door" or "lemon tree" theory. Seems clear to me that besides Viserys' influencing of Danys memories the little girl remembers living in Braavos in a big house with a red door and there was lemon tree outside her window.      Oh me or my, faulty memory or mis-remembering or unreliable character --- depends what a reader believes and how far a person wants to go to dispute what was written to validate ones idea.

:dunno: Dany either remembers correctly or Dany remembers incorrectly. OR its a martin misdirection like Eddard's baby momma drama OR it is a mistake of editing like Tyrion's rewinding river voyage.

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I       She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long.       The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.      She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.     They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one./

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