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Platypus Rex

Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

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29 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Actually by her own account, her memories of Braavos or not completely in tact:

Yes, there is also this:

"Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door …"

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, it's in Braavos.

The red door marked that house as house of Red dragons/Targaryens, and the house itself, probably, was a courtesy of Illyrio (or Varys), who gave a place to live for little Targaryens and their caretaker, to be able to control them, and use them later. Though Willem Darry tried to get them out, and thus collaborated with Martells. He was planning to marry Viserys to Arianne. So that lemon tree was sort of an engagement present from Martells to Targaryens. It's a tradition in some cultures to plant an evergreen plant/tree when people get married, or engaged, or the baby is born. Lemon is an evergreen tree.

I don't know if I agree with you on anything else in this statement, but I do agree that Varys was the benefactor who provided a place for the Targaryen children. The clues we have in the text are Varys paid for Gendry's apprenticeship and was the one who got Edric Storm his presents from his "father". Why? That is a subject for debate elsewhere.

ETA: After posting this I went back a read the rest of the thread. I have to say I don't think they were staying under the Sealord's protection. Because even if they were kicked out, I doubt he would have let the servants steal from them.

Edited by bent branch

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YES, the house is in Dorne. I think it is super obvious based on the lemon tree memory + quote from Sharna in ASOS.

I am open to the possibility that Dany grew up not in Dorne, even maybe in Braavos, but I'm pretty sure if they were staying at the Sealord's palace Dany would have some memories of the FUCKING ZOO and not just a boring-ass lemon tree and some carvings on the walls. :P 

Quote

"Hear me. The ships of Braavos sail as far as the winds blow, to lands strange and wonderful, and when they return their captains fetch queer animals to the Sealord's menagerie. Such animals as you have never seen, striped horses, great spotted things with necks as long as stilts, hairy mouse-pigs as big as cows, stinging manticores, tigers that carry their cubs in a pouch, terrible walking lizards with scythes for claws. Syrio Forel has seen these things.

Also why wouldn't they put their money in a bank, like the Iron Bank... across the street. No, literally... across the street...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/6d/4d/ed6d4da002d784d5f1442f9c7cedde77.jpg

It just doesn't match up with the descriptions from Dany's memory at all.

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2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Nobody questions that there was textual evidence that they lived in Braavos.  The question is whether the discrepancy with other textual evidence means anything.  GRRM seemed to strongly hint that the discrepancy DOES mean something.  So, what does it mean?

One thing it means is that the letter Quentyn gave to Dany was fake. She didn't inspect those seals. She has no method of verifying the authenticity of the document and Doran knows this. And Jon told us explicitly in ADWD that non-lords do not have the authority to make marriage pacts.

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Right now, I’m going to go with yes, it’s in Dorne just because I like it better and it ties the story together more since there’s so many connections to Dorne (Varys, Elia, Viserys’ marriage contract, Oberyn as a Second Son, Doran’s mysterious plans, lemons are so tied to Dorne, more). I also don’t see a reason to cast doubts on Dany’s memories for no reason. Despite this, I think Dany is who she thinks she is. 

 

She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them.

I'm actually more interested in this than the lemons. Large trees and carved faces of animals is very specific and unusual. Great beams and carved faces points to First Men stuff. Carved faces might point to Braavos, but Arya notes there are no trees, so great wooden beams seems odd here. 

 

AFFC The Queenmaker

They found the boat half a league downstream, hidden beneath the drooping branches of a great green willow. Low of roof and wide abeam, the poleboats had hardly any draft to speak of; the Young Dragon had disparaged them as "hovels built on rafts," but that was hardly fair. All but the poorest orphan boats were wonderfully carved and painted. This one was done in shades of green, with a curved wooden tiller shaped like a mermaid, and fish faces peering through her rails. Poles and ropes and jars of olive oil cluttered her decks, and iron lanterns swung fore and aft. Arianne saw no orphans. Where is her crew? she wondered.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne

Most of the First Men who chose to remain in Dorne, instead of wandering north in search of sweeter lands, settled close to the banks of the Greenblood, digging canals and ditches to bring its life-giving waters to the trees and crops they planted.

 

AFFC Arya I

They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

 

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1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

YES, the house is in Dorne. I think it is super obvious based on the lemon tree memory + quote from Sharna in ASOS.

I am open to the possibility that Dany grew up not in Dorne, even maybe in Braavos, but I'm pretty sure if they were staying at the Sealord's palace Dany would have some memories of the FUCKING ZOO and not just a boring-ass lemon tree and some carvings on the walls. :P 

Also why wouldn't they put their money in a bank, like the Iron Bank... across the street. No, literally... across the street...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/6d/4d/ed6d4da002d784d5f1442f9c7cedde77.jpg

It just doesn't match up with the descriptions from Dany's memory at all.

Thank you for busting out the map. I see A LOT of trees in the Sealord's Palace along with a few short buildings (like a house).

TMOIAF is canon right?

The fact that I see trees at the Palace proves that trees can thrive in Braavos in a private garden. Maybe Dany stayed at the Sealord's Palace, maybe it is somewhere else in Braavos.

But the fact that Oberyn, Williem Darry, and the Sealord were in the same room at one time when Dany was ~5 years old, proves that Dany was in Braavos at an age where she can recall things.

If Dany was in Dorne at age 5 with Darry, I doubt the Sealord of Braavos would travel so far to witness a marriage pact.

It makes more sense that Oberyn went to Braavos alone to meet Darry, Dany, Viserys and the Sealord.

He probably brought a lemon tree from Dorne as a gift to them too.

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1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

But the fact that Oberyn, Williem Darry, and the Sealord were in the same room at one time when Dany was ~5 years old, proves that Dany was in Braavos at an age where she can recall things.

But . . . . why assume that pact is real? Dany's got no one to vouch for it. No signature to compare. Why assume it's real?

At present, all we have is a document that benefits Doran's plans. Seems like there's an excellent chance it could be fake. Thus proving none of the above.

Quote

If Dany was in Dorne at age 5 with Darry, I doubt the Sealord of Braavos would travel so far to witness a marriage pact.

Very true.

Quote

It makes more sense that Oberyn went to Braavos alone to meet Darry, Dany, Viserys and the Sealord.

Oberyn was known to be a world traveller.

But Martin also named Oberyn after a very famous character that steals children. If Dany is not the original child Rhaella gave birth to, Oberyn could have gone to Braavos for an entirely different reason.

Quote

He probably brought a lemon tree from Dorne as a gift to them too.

That would be very thoughtful--though Oberyn seems the sort to bring poisons, not lemons.. And far as I can remember, Martin gives no hint at all that the Martells have any history of  lemon gifting--happy to be corrected if I'm misremembering this.

But we are told no lemon trees in Braavos. 

Edited by Sly Wren
Lemon gifting

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54 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But . . . . why assume that pact is real? Dany's got no one to vouch for it. No signature to compare. Why assume it's real?

The lemon tree that was imported from Dorne was the proof.

 

*Daenerys finally arrives in Dorne*
Doran: Daenerys Targaryen, welcome home my Queen. We have been praying for your return since our secret Martell-Targaryen alliance we set up since you were 5 years old in Braavos.
Dany: What Martell-Targaryen alliance? The one between Viserys and Arianne that no one knows about? How do I know it is even real and that we had it for so long?
Doran: The Sealord of Braavos witnessed Sir Willem Darry and my brother Oberyn signing the marriage pact. Oberyn even brought over a lemon tree from Dorne as a gift to signify our alliance.
Dany: Lemon tree?? I remember this lemon tree vividly!
Doran: And you know how the saying goes ... 'Lemon trees don't grow in Braavos!' hahaha
Dany: Yes, I hear that a lot ... no wonder why this lemon tree was special and unique to me.
Doran: Didn't Quentyn tell you about the lemon tree......aww shitttt....i forgot to tell him about it before he left.

 

B+A=J and R+L=D ... debunked

 

Edited by The Map Guy

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If she was staying with the Sealord the servants would not just run off. They work for him. She was def. not staying at his palace. 

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I can imagine a number of scenarios where it's quite revealing if the servants hired for caring for these special guests started to steal from them and basically abandoned them. Old Sealord who made all the agreements died, his successor found that he had put them knee-deep in a plot to destabilize Westeros and got spooked, and basically used an impolite way to usher them out (shades of Xaro's treatment of Dany when he was done with her)? Darry too ill and the servants told they can be dismissive in the wake of it as a means of driving them from Braavos in a way that pulled suspicion away from the Braavosi? Darry poisoned and servants paid off by co-conspirators of the Braavosi who wanted to end the Sealord's involvement in the affairs of the Targaryens? 

Lots of possibilities.

Edited by Ran

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6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But . . . . why assume that pact is real? Dany's got no one to vouch for it. No signature to compare. Why assume it's real?

At present, all we have is a document that benefits Doran's plans. Seems like there's an excellent chance it could be fake. Thus proving none of the above.

One hell of a conspiracy theory, my friend. Doran is lying to his daughter. Doran has manufactured evidence that would get him killed if it ever gets in the hands of Robert. Not only his death but it would start a war against Dorne and bring the deaths of thousands of his subjects. And his motive is what? He has heard rumors from half a world a way that Dany may have dragons? Which prompts him to send his son on this dangerous and top secret voyage that gets him killed? A voyage that if discovered would result in all the above even if no written pact was discovered. 

And what evidence do we have that this is faked? None. Only that it is inconvenient to a theory that also has no evidence. May I ask why you think Quentyn would not know his own uncle's signature? Or do you think Oberyn helped in the forgery before his death? No, this idea is shot full of holes.

9 minutes ago, Impbread said:

If she was staying with the Sealord the servants would not just run off. They work for him. She was def. not staying at his palace. 

The servants are under Ser Willem's control. I see no reason to assume they are under the Sealord's control. We don't even know if Braavos is the first port of call for the Targaryens once they left Dragonstone. The servants could have been from Dragonstone or anyplace they travelled after. Ser Willem isn't likely going to want to do all the tasks entailed in their daily living. Especially once he is sick. 

What seems likely is that the house with the Red Door is on the grounds of the Sealord's Palace, and that he has extended his protection to the Targaryens and their entourage by letting them live there. The lemon tree indicates a wealthy patron capable of caring for the tree in Braavos's climate.

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1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

One hell of a conspiracy theory, my friend. Doran is lying to his daughter. Doran has manufactured evidence that would get him killed if it ever gets in the hands of Robert. Not only his death but it would start a war against Dorne and bring the deaths of thousands of his subjects. And his motive is what? He has heard rumors from half a world a way that Dany may have dragons? Which prompts him to send his son on this dangerous and top secret voyage that gets him killed? A voyage that if discovered would result in all the above even if no written pact was discovered. 

And what evidence do we have that this is faked? None. Only that it is inconvenient to a theory that also has no evidence. May I ask why you think Quentyn would not know his own uncle's signature? Or do you think Oberyn helped in the forgery before his death? No, this idea is shot full of holes.

The servants are under Ser Willem's control. I see no reason to assume they are under the Sealord's control. We don't even know if Braavos is the first port of call for the Targaryens once they left Dragonstone. The servants could have been from Dragonstone or anyplace they travelled after. Ser Willem isn't likely going to want to do all the tasks entailed in their daily living. Especially once he is sick. 

What seems likely is that the house with the Red Door is on the grounds of the Sealord's Palace, and that he has extended his protection to the Targaryens and their entourage by letting them live there. The lemon tree indicates a wealthy patron capable of caring for the tree in Braavos's climate.

You dont think that Danny would remember all the animals the Sea Lord had? I think she would remember living on palace grounds. There would be servants and guards everywhere. Just my humble opinion.

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8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Thank you for busting out the map. I see A LOT of trees in the Sealord's Palace along with a few short buildings (like a house).

TMOIAF is canon right?

The fact that I see trees at the Palace proves that trees can thrive in Braavos in a private garden. Maybe Dany stayed at the Sealord's Palace, maybe it is somewhere else in Braavos.

But the fact that Oberyn, Williem Darry, and the Sealord were in the same room at one time when Dany was ~5 years old, proves that Dany was in Braavos at an age where she can recall things.

If Dany was in Dorne at age 5 with Darry, I doubt the Sealord of Braavos would travel so far to witness a marriage pact.

It makes more sense that Oberyn went to Braavos alone to meet Darry, Dany, Viserys and the Sealord.

He probably brought a lemon tree from Dorne as a gift to them too.

Aaah, but you and most other people have been tricked by grrm. The marriage pact document is probably fake. We have no proof it is authentic, Oberyn and Darry weren't lords which means they lack the authority to make a marriage pact according to Jon in ADWD, and it would make no sense if master schemer Doran simply waited 20 years for Viserys to get an army and then present him with a secret pact. So we have no proof Dany was in Braavos at that point in time. Again, if she was staying in that palace, I would think she would remember the ZOO...

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

I can imagine a number of scenarios where it's quite revealing if the servants hired for caring for these special guests started to steal from them and basically abandoned them. Old Sealord who made all the agreements died, his successor found that he had put them knee-deep in a plot to destabilize Westeros and got spooked, and basically used an impolite way to usher them out (shades of Xaro's treatment of Dany when he was done with her)? Darry too ill and the servants told they can be dismissive in the wake of it as a means of driving them from Braavos in a way that pulled suspicion away from the Braavosi? Darry poisoned and servants paid off by co-conspirators of the Braavosi who wanted to end the Sealord's involvement in the affairs of the Targaryens? 

Lots of possibilities.

 

While we don't know anything of the Sealord's (or his possible replacement) temperament or attitudes, this seems an unlikely scenario to me. If the new Sealord was worried about garnering the wrath of Robert and Westeros, wouldn't he have simply turned Dany and Viserys over to them, thereby making a powerful ally (and probably a tidy reward as well)? It makes no sense just to cut them loose if you have them safely in custody. If Robert finds out you let them walk off, won't he be just as wroth?

Given the (admittedly sparse) evidence, it seems to me that the Sealord allowed them to stay in Braavos, but was consciously and purposely absent from their care and oversight. This was probably to make sure that if hit with accusations of conspiracy, he could deny all charges and point to the marriage pact document (if found) as him just being the administrative witness to an agreement requiring a highborn signature. Or... he really was just that and it was his only involvement.

If they were being succored in Braavos, why was no one in power informed that they were being evicted? Why did Viserys or Dany feel that there was nobody to turn to if they knew their benefactor was not far away? And most importantly, why didn't Williem Darry, knowing full well he was sick and probably wouldn't be able to ward the two of them to adulthood, not make proper arrangements for their disposition after his death? If the old Sealord had died and was replaced by a less sympathetic man, Darry would have known this before his death, no?

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5 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Again, if she was staying in that palace, I would think she would remember the ZOO

Dany doesn't have to stay at the actual Palace. That would actually be a stupid place to harbor Dany and Viserys if the Sealord got caught by Robert's spies.

The Sealord can easily own several buildings and houses in Braavos. Perhaps Dany stayed at one of the safe-houses that were sponsored by the Sealord, and it had a red door. Darry was given his own servants. After the marriage pact with Dorne, Oberyn brought a baby lemon tree from Dorne and placed in the private garden, to remind Darry, Dany, and Viserys that Dorne is with them.

And if people say bringing a lemon tree from Dorne is out-of-character for Oberyn, well he did this because it is part of the long-term revenge plot for Elia.

Edited by The Map Guy

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13 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

The lemon tree that was imported from Dorne was the proof.

This seems like somewhat circular reasoning.

Or, since we are discussing lemons, perhaps more like an oval.

So far, in all the novels, only mentions of a lemon tree outside Dany's chapters is Sharna. That's it. Seems like there's a decent chance her take is telling.

All that said--I do think there's a decent chance Oberyn and the Sealord had some kind of a pact. No lemons involved.

13 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

*Daenerys finally arrives in Dorne*
Doran: Daenerys Targaryen, welcome home my Queen. We have been praying for your return since our secret Martell-Targaryen alliance we set up since you were 5 years old in Braavos.
Dany: What Martell-Targaryen alliance? The one between Viserys and Arianne that no one knows about? How do I know it is even real and that we had it for so long?
Doran: The Sealord of Braavos witnessed Sir Willem Darry and my brother Oberyn signing the marriage pact. Oberyn even brought over a lemon tree from Dorne as a gift to signify our alliance.
Dany: Lemon tree?? I remember this lemon tree vividly!
Doran: And you know how the saying goes ... 'Lemon trees don't grow in Braavos!' hahaha
Dany: Yes, I hear that a lot ... no wonder why this lemon tree was special and unique to me.
Doran: Didn't Quentyn tell you about the lemon tree......aww shitttt....i forgot to tell him about it before he left.

Bravo, ser! Better writing than HBO.

13 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

B+A=J and R+L=D ... debunked

Not exactly--though I don't either of these is likely.

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