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Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

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6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

One hell of a conspiracy theory, my friend.

My tinfoil palace is grand and mighty! And all my tinfoil hats have tassels! :P

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Doran is lying to his daughter.

Well, we know he does this--he's kept stuff from her. And he has incentive to lie--look at her plotting and reasoning. Doran has reason to not tell her the whole truth and to tell her a story to calm her down and hopefully limit any further interference.

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Doran has manufactured evidence that would get him killed if it ever gets in the hands of Robert.

One way or another, I do think Doran and Oberyn likely had some dealings in the fates of young Viserys and the current Dany, whether she's the original Dany or no. But given the amount of space between the so called pact and the reveal of it, seems like he's had plenty of time to manufacture it after Robert's death, assuming he feared him. He only reveals it after Robert's death.

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

And his motive is what? He has heard rumors from half a world a way that Dany may have dragons? Which prompts him to send his son on this dangerous and top secret voyage that gets him killed? A voyage that if discovered would result in all the above even if no written pact was discovered. 

Agreed. I think we don't yet have Doran's full motive. 

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

And what evidence do we have that this is faked? None. Only that it is inconvenient to a theory that also has no evidence.

No--we have the House of Black and White's "founding tale" to Arya, about Braavosi hatred of dragonlords. Which should make us suspicious of that pact.

And that suspicion is heightened when very purple Tycho shows up and tells Jon flat out that not only the Faceless Men, but also the Iron Bank despise dragonlords. Those alone tell us something is likely to be amok with Doran's current story.

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

May I ask why you think Quentyn would not know his own uncle's signature? Or do you think Oberyn helped in the forgery before his death?

Do we have any evidence Quentyn read the sig a lot?

And I do think Oberyn was involved in all of this early on--he's named after a very famous child stealer and poisoner. We seen the poison--where's the changing? I think there's a decent chance that pact with the sealord was about something else entirely. And the current Dany first lived in Dorne. 

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

No, this idea is shot full of holes.

Tycho and the Faceless Men tell us there's likely something wrong with that current pact. And we know Doran is willing to lie to his children--and has good reason to do so in Arianne's case.

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Is there any chance Daenerys and Viserys were housed in Dorne even if for a brief amount of time.

There is no evidence that Darry took the Targaryen children straight to Braavos from Dragonstone. Could he have taken them to Sunspear first?

Dorne was, in fact, willing to keep fighting against the Baratheon-controlled Iron Throne once the Rebellion ended. And they would have done so if they weren't visited by Jon Arryn. Jon Arryn's visit (we know next to nothing of this visit) only that Dorne laid down their spears but opted to politically and socially isolate themselves from the Seven Kingdoms. Something about Jon Arryn's visit spooked Doran which is why Darry, Viserys and Daenerys - who had to have been in hiding - had to leave. 

The pact signed between Oberyn, Darry and the Sealord could still have been signed in Braavos.

However, I'm not sure why Daenerys' discovery of this conspiracy makes her feel strange.

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15 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

But the fact that Oberyn, Williem Darry, and the Sealord were in the same room at one time when Dany was ~5 years old, proves that Dany was in Braavos at an age where she can recall things.

If Dany was in Dorne at age 5 with Darry, I doubt the Sealord of Braavos would travel so far to witness a marriage pact.

It makes more sense that Oberyn went to Braavos alone to meet Darry, Dany, Viserys and the Sealord

Assuming that the squiggle you put before 5, means that you acknowledge that Dany could be younger, say 4 years of age, when the marriage pact was signed.  The age of four is probably the age when we can first start to remember some events, though it's much more likely that our memories are spotty, and hazy.  Try to think back when you were four years of age, and consider how reliable those memories really are.

I don't have any reason to doubt that the marriage pact occurred.  I tend to think it was probably signed in Braavos, since the Sealord was a witness to the pact as opposed to one of the parties to the contract.  It would seem odd that the Sealord would have ventured into Dorne merely to witness a contract between two other parties. 

Assuming that Dany may have at least a memory of Dorne through her memory of the lemon tree, I think the most probable explanation is that Oberyn brought Dany with him when he signed the marriage contract with Darry.  My guess is that the contract was contingent on Viserys being able to bring his own army to the table.  Dany was brought to Darry, as a means of acquiring said army. 

Dany brought with her a memory of a lemon tree and a House with a red door, two apparently vivid images from her youth. 

Going back to the her vision in the House of the Undying, the first thing we have to establish is the source of this vision.  Is it a memory from Dany's own subconscious?  I'm not so sure of that.  If you look to some of the other visions, they could not have been from Dany's own memory. 

The image of Rhaegar, Elia, and Aegon could not have been from Dany's subconscious.  And the image of Aerys on the Iron Throne could not have come from her subconscious.  The possibility exists, however, that she's viewing someone else's memories of these events.  After all, at one point Rhaegar turns to acknowledge another presence in the room, Dany's unsure if he is acknowledging her or someone else.  My guess is, Dany may be receiving memories from someone else present with Rhaegar and Elia, someone that Rhaegar turned to when it was time to discuss the third head of the dragon.

If so, then it is highly possible, that this same person may be the source of Dany's vision of Darry.  Darry may not be actually communicating with Dany in the vision, but he may instead be communicating with the same person, who viewed Rhaegar and Elia, and the same person who viewed Aerys' conversation on the Iron Throne.  Someone who' s memories and consciousness Dany became privy to in the House of the Undying.

 

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22 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Even better would be if he brought lemon tree seeds to Braavos. Then they would literally be planting seeds to their plan. :P

Lemon tree seeds? Are we talking some sort of paste again? :D

Seriously, the big house w/ the red door is Dany remembering a few happy things from her childhood. She’s had a hard life from a very young age, and w/ a nutjob psycho of a brother to boot. The red door and the lemon tree are happy memories she can hang on to, a “happy place” she can revisit. And it’s location is Braavos. 

In a way, “lemongate” is similar to the direwolf pups not being covered in afterbirth when Robb and Jon find them. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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2 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Dany doesn't have to stay at the actual Palace. That would actually be a stupid place to harbor Dany and Viserys if the Sealord got caught by Robert's spies.

The Sealord can easily own several buildings and houses in Braavos. Perhaps Dany stayed at one of the safe-houses that were sponsored by the Sealord, and it had a red door. Darry was given his own servants. After the marriage pact with Dorne, Oberyn brought a baby lemon tree from Dorne and placed in the private garden, to remind Darry, Dany, and Viserys that Dorne is with them.

And if people say bringing a lemon tree from Dorne is out-of-character for Oberyn, well he did this because it is part of the long-term revenge plot for Elia.

Right, and that's why I said I'm open to the possibility that she really did grow up in Braavos, just not at the sealord's palace as many people suggest

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30 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

In a way, “lemongate” is similar to the direwolf pups not being covered in afterbirth when Robb and Jon find them. 

Like Dany being able to eat a horse's heart?

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

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6 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Like Dany being able to eat a horse's heart?

Hmm. Not sure? I would be able to eat a horse’s heart if my life depended on it, and I was born vegetarian. :D

I think the lemon tree may have been just a sort of “mistake”, like Martin not thinking through about what grows in which climate back in the early 90’s. Similar to not being around many canids’ births at the time he wrote the chapter where the direwof pups are found. :dunno:

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hmm. Not sure? I would be able to eat a horse’s heart if my life depended on it, and I was born vegetarian. :D

 

Horse hearts usually weigh between 8 and 9 pounds. Some (Secratatiat) can weigh up to 22. It is not possible for someone weighing, I dunno how much exactly, 100 pounds to eat that much without vomiting. 

I was trying to catch your meaning. I think the horse heart thing was a mistake by Martin. 

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1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

Horse hearts usually weigh between 8 and 9 pounds. Some (Secratatiat) can weigh up to 22. It is not possible for someone weighing, I dunno how much exactly, 100 pounds to eat that much without vomiting. 

I was trying to catch your meaning. I think the horse heart thing was a mistake by Martin. 

Oh, I see now!  I initially thought you were talking about the “ick” factor, not the logistics of consuming a horse’s heart.

I definitely see what you’re saying now. And I agree, I think the horse’s heart is very likely something he didn’t really think through. I mean, not w/ all the actual data on horses’ hearts at hand. So, in that sense, yes, exactly like the pups and the lemon tree.

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I definitely see what you’re saying now. And I agree, I think the horse’s heart is very likely something he didn’t really think through.

Did I just give someone a new crackpot theory that Dany must have some sort of super stomach? Because, of course, George could never make a mistake!:leaving:

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15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But we are told no lemon trees in Braavos. 

No, we are not.

We are told that bare bellied girls are not seen in Bravos, but are found in the other Free Cities further south. The same guard is also complaining that he hasn't seen any orange trees (or other citrus including lemons), which he expected.
That does not mean that there are none, just that they are not common because it is not their natural climate. And he hasn't seen any, yet.
 

Quote
The envoy from the Seven Kingdoms had taken two of his guards into his box to stand behind him and the Black Pearl, but the other two had been posted just outside the door to make certain he was not disturbed. They were talking quietly in the Common Tongue of Westeros as she slipped up silently behind them in the darkened passage. That was not a language Mercy knew.
"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?"
"Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis," the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. "I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is <i>north</i> of King's Landing, fool. Can't you read a bloody map?"

Lemon trees exist, thrive and flourish in colder climes similar to Bravos. They just aren't found there naturally, they've been imported (costly in a medieval society) and tend to be in small numbers privately well cared for, not large numbers as commercial fruit  or common local parkland trees.

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2 minutes ago, corbon said:

Lemon trees exist, thrive and flourish in colder climes similar to Bravos. They just aren't found there naturally, they've been imported (costly in a medieval society) and tend to be in small numbers privately well cared for, not large numbers as commercial fruit  or common local parkland trees.

This. Have a lemon tree in West Sussex (granted, not the harshest winters ever, but still) never brought it inside for the winter, and it’s fine and happy (I like to think) and we’ve even used its lemons to make  “caipirinhas” (don’t be lazy, look it up). :D

 

 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

This. Have a lemon tree in West Sussex (granted, not the harshest winters ever, but still) never brought it inside for the winter, and it’s fine and happy (I like to think) and we’ve even used its lemons to make  “caipirinhas” (don’t be lazy, look it up). :D

They are common in the backyards of older houses in Dunedin, NZ lat 45S. You'd never see one 'in public' though.

Coincidentally, lat 45N passes through a little region in north Italy known as Veneto...

 

ETA: Oh, and by the way, Dunedin has a colder climate than you'd expect from its latitiude. The deep water current that passes  unusually close to the coast there comes direct from Antartica. And the continental shelf is very steep and very close to the shore making it a prime spot for many marine biologists.

Edited by corbon

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1. GRRM uses gardening terminology. I heard someone suggest the Tyrell name came from a botanical garden/arboretum/something though I'm not sure I'm finding it offhand. They suggested this was the source of the name. And GRRM is from New Jersey and lived in Chicago so he has some awareness of what doesn't grow in colder climates. Thus, I don't think there's any mistake on GRRM's part in regards to the lemon tree and climate. That he connects lemons so thoroughly with Dorne as opposed to more Northern climates in the South also tells me that GRRM knows what he's talking about here. 

2. I don't think GRRM would write the lemon tree in Braavos requiring the reader to jump through so many mental gymnastics to find an explanation ultimately for no significant purpose (it's just in a pot). That seems silly and like poor writing. 

3. It would also be bad writing to expect the reader to have expert knowledge of lemon trees and that some may have some cold tolerance in specific situations and with certain breeds without an explanation in novel as to this. Especially as he reinforces lemons/hot weather with his lemons in Dorne thing. 

Edited by Lollygag

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7 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

1. GRRM uses gardening terminology. I heard someone suggest the Tyrell name came from a botanical garden/arboretum/something though I'm not sure I'm finding it offhand. They suggested this was the source of the name. And GRRM is from New Jersey and lived in Chicago so he has some awareness of what doesn't grow in colder climates. Thus, I don't think there's any mistake on GRRM's part in regards to the lemon tree and climate. That he connects lemons so thoroughly with Dorne as opposed to more Northern climates in the South also tells me that GRRM knows what he's talking about here. 

2. I don't think GRRM would write the lemon tree in Braavos requiring the reader to jump through so many mental gymnastics to find an explanation ultimately for no significant purpose (it's just in a pot). That seems silly and like poor writing. 

3. It would also be bad writing to expect the reader to have expert knowledge of lemon trees and that some may have some cold tolerance in specific situations and with certain breeds without an explanation in novel as to this. Especially as he reinforces lemons/hot weather with his lemons in Dorne thing. 

And this means... what? Is  the house w the red door is in dorne? Or not? 

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

And this means... what? Is  the house w the red door is in dorne? Or not? 

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know but it's my top guess right now though def not married to or invested in that. The whole Dorne plot is being kept close to the chest and it's also possible that we just haven't been given enough info yet to piece it together kinda like the situation with the Daynes. 

But this along with the reader clearly intended to doubt Dany's memories means we're supposed to question...something. :dunno:

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23 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

1. GRRM uses gardening terminology. I heard someone suggest the Tyrell name came from a botanical garden/arboretum/something though I'm not sure I'm finding it offhand. They suggested this was the source of the name. And GRRM is from New Jersey and lived in Chicago so he has some awareness of what doesn't grow in colder climates. Thus, I don't think there's any mistake on GRRM's part in regards to the lemon tree and climate. That he connects lemons so thoroughly with Dorne as opposed to more Northern climates in the South also tells me that GRRM knows what he's talking about here. 

He does not connect them thoroughly with Dorne. There is one reference, by a riverlands peasant who only knows that they are a luxury item from warmer clime, so Dorne, to her and one reference by Baelish, a trader in effect (he got his start in customs remember).
There is also a reference to Meereen, and the southern Free cities, as well as several Dany referneces to Bravos.

The key point is that outside their 'natural' areas they are always connected to wealth. To Rich men, big houses, Lords and nobles. Which is entirely as you would expect.

23 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

2. I don't think GRRM would write the lemon tree in Braavos requiring the reader to jump through so many mental gymnastics to find an explanation ultimately for no significant purpose (it's just in a pot). That seems silly and like poor writing. 

There are no mental gymnastics required, except by people trying to say its out of place. 

Lemons are found in as diverse places as the Wall, Winterfell, Bravos and The Twins as well as their more natural climes such as Dorn, Meereen, the southern Free cities etc. 

The big house with the red door in Bravos that Dany lived in when she and Viserys still had money and status was clearly a place of wealth. So a lemon tree is not at all out of place.

23 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

3. It would also be bad writing to expect the reader to have expert knowledge of lemon trees and that some may have some cold tolerance in specific situations and with certain breeds without an explanation in novel as to this. Especially as he reinforces lemons/hot weather with his lemons in Dorne thing. 

Nothing of relevance here. Lemons trees are common in private gardens in all sorts of completely unnatural real world locations because we are an incredibly wealthy society. And lemons in AsoIaF are clearly connected to wealth and luxury outside their natural climes. Nothing complicated and no special knowledge needed.

Just some very perverse thinking to find a lemon tree in a big house in Bravos 'out of place'.
Plus ignoring her other memories of wandering from Bravos to Myr and more after being kicked out of the big house. 

Its right there in black and white, there is no reason to lie or deceive by the data giver, its backed up by other data points and there is nothing at all out of place.

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know but it's my top guess right now though def not married to or invested in that. The whole Dorne plot is being kept close to the chest and it's also possible that we just haven't been given enough info yet to piece it together kinda like the situation with the Daynes. 

But this along with the reader clearly intended to doubt Dany's memories means we're supposed to question...something. :dunno:

Fair enough. I don't have muxh time to elaborate now, but my take on your previous post was that you were firmly on the "lemon tree in braavos = impossible" camp. 

 

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21 minutes ago, corbon said:

He does not connect them thoroughly with Dorne. There is one reference, by a riverlands peasant who only knows that they are a luxury item from warmer clime, so Dorne, to her and one reference by Baelish, a trader in effect (he got his start in customs remember).
There is also a reference to Meereen, and the southern Free cities, as well as several Dany referneces to Bravos.

The key point is that outside their 'natural' areas they are always connected to wealth. To Rich men, big houses, Lords and nobles. Which is entirely as you would expect.

There are no mental gymnastics required, except by people trying to say its out of place. 

Lemons are found in as diverse places as the Wall, Winterfell, Bravos and The Twins as well as their more natural climes such as Dorn, Meereen, the southern Free cities etc. 

The big house with the red door in Bravos that Dany lived in when she and Viserys still had money and status was clearly a place of wealth. So a lemon tree is not at all out of place.

Nothing of relevance here. Lemons trees are common in private gardens in all sorts of completely unnatural real world locations because we are an incredibly wealthy society. And lemons in AsoIaF are clearly connected to wealth and luxury outside their natural climes. Nothing complicated and no special knowledge needed.

Just some very perverse thinking to find a lemon tree in a big house in Bravos 'out of place'.
Plus ignoring her other memories of wandering from Bravos to Myr and more after being kicked out of the big house. 

Its right there in black and white, there is no reason to lie or deceive by the data giver, its backed up by other data points and there is nothing at all out of place.

ASOS Arya II

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too."

TWOW Alayne I

For me, Alayne thought, as they wheeled it out. Sweetrobin loved lemon cakes too, but only after she told him that they were her favorites. The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

A second, rival High King of Dorne also existed during the times of the First Men, ruling from a great wooden motte-and-bailey castle on the south bank of Greenwood near Lemonwood, where the river flows into the Summer Sea. This was a curious kingship, for whenever a king died, his successor was chosen by election from amongst a dozen noble families that had settled along the river or the eastern shores. The Wades, Shells, Holts, Brooks, Hulls, Lakes, Brownhills, and Briars all threw up kings who ruled from the high hall amongst the lemon trees, but in the end this curious system broke down when a disputed election set the royal houses to warring against one another. After a generation of conflict, three of the old houses were wiped from the earth, and the once-powerful river realm had shattered into a dozen quarrelsome petty kingdoms.

A Feast for Crows - The Captain Of Guards

Only three leagues of coast road divided Sunspear from the Water Gardens, yet they were two different worlds. There children frolicked naked in the sun, music played in tiled courtyards, and the air was sharp with the smell of lemons and blood oranges.

Others farther back let fly with lemons, limes, and oranges, crying "War! War! To the spears!" One of the guards was hit in the eye with a lemon, and the captain himself had an orange splatter off his foot.

A Feast for Crows—The Queenmaker

"We're almost there, Your Grace," Garin told Myrcella cheerfully when they spied more sandbeggars up ahead, a thicket of them growing all around the dry bed of a stream. The sun was beating down like a fiery hammer, but it did not matter with their journey at its end. They stopped to water the horses again, drank deep from their skins and wet their veils, then mounted for the last push. Within half a league they were riding over devilgrass and past olive groves. Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Garin was the first to spy the river glimmering green. He gave a shout and raced ahead.

ASOS Arya II

Lem took off his yellow cloak and waded in knee-deep to retrieve it, complaining all the while. "Do you think Sharna might have lemons down in that cellar of hers?" said Anguy to Tom as they watched Lem splash around, cursing. "A Dornish girl once cooked me duck with lemons." He sounded wistful.

ASOS Tyrion V

"Lemons?" Pod said hopefully. "A purple field strewn with lemons? For House Dalt? Of, of Lemonwood."

 

 

 

And as to lemons being only for the rich see above and more below (and how would the average reader know this unless told)

 

ADWD Tyrion VI

By the time Griff appeared on deck, the pike was spitting and sizzling over the brazier whilst Ysilla hovered over it with a lemon, squeezing.

AGOT Arya V

She tied the pigeon to her belt and started down the street. A man was pushing a load of tarts by on a two-wheeled cart; the smells sang of blueberries and lemons and apricots. Her stomach made a hollow rumbly noise. "Could I have one?" she heard herself say. "A lemon, or … or any kind."

The pushcart man looked her up and down. Plainly he did not like what he saw. "Three coppers."

AGOT Jon IX (yeah, the NW is wealthy)

Jon opened a shuttered window, took the flagon of beer off the outside ledge, and filled a horn. Hobb had given him a lemon, still cold from the Wall. Jon crushed it in his fist. The juice trickled through his fingers. Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day, and claimed that was why he still had his own teeth.

The Hedgeknight

The lamb was as good as any he had ever eaten, and the duck was even better, cooked with cherries and lemons and not near as greasy as most. The innkeep brought buttered pease as well, and oaten bread still hot from her oven. This is what it means to be a knight, he told himself as he sucked the last bit of meat off the bone. Good food, and ale whenever I want it, and no one to clout me in the head. He had a second tankard of ale with the meal, a third to wash it down, and a fourth because there was no one to tell him he couldn't, and when he was done he paid the woman with a silver stag and still got back a fistful of coppers.

 

 

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