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Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

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7 hours ago, corbon said:

No, we are not.

We are told that bare bellied girls are not seen in Bravos, but are found in the other Free Cities further south. The same guard is also complaining that he hasn't seen any orange trees (or other citrus including lemons), which he expected.
That does not mean that there are none, just that they are not common because it is not their natural climate. And he hasn't seen any, yet.
 

Lemon trees exist, thrive and flourish in colder climes similar to Bravos. They just aren't found there naturally, they've been imported (costly in a medieval society) and tend to be in small numbers privately well cared for, not large numbers as commercial fruit  or common local parkland trees.

@Lollygag beat me to laying all this out.

The novels do a solid job showing us that lemons are tied to Dorne. And not Braavos.

They absolutely could be kept in gardens in real life. But narratively, Martin takes time to say we should look to Dorne.

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49 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

When life gives us lemons, we make lemonade.

When GRRM gives us lemons, crackpot theorists make R+L=D theories.

Well done!

Though I'm not ready to go with RLD. Jon's Lyanna's kid.

If Dany's not who she thinks she is, pretty sure she's Rhaegar and Ashara's.

Crackpot lemonade.

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1 minute ago, Sly Wren said:

If Dany's not who she thinks she is, pretty sure she's Rhaegar and Ashara's.

I probably won't mind this theory, but it will still oval back to lemongate.

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15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

My tinfoil palace is grand and mighty! And all my tinfoil hats have tassels! :P

As all tinfoil palaces and hats should be!

I really have no problem with tinfoil if we know what kind of territory in which we are operating. I've advance a few tinfoil theories myself over the years.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, we know he does this--he's kept stuff from her. And he has incentive to lie--look at her plotting and reasoning. Doran has reason to not tell her the whole truth and to tell her a story to calm her down and hopefully limit any further interference.

He tells a story of treason, as he admits to Quentyn. That's really not the kind of thing you make up and give over to someone he doesn't trust. Rather it is an explanation of the real story that he finally entrusts to his heir because he finally realizes his keeping the truth from her has done both of them, and Dorne, much more harm than sharing the secrets could do. This is his "Arya, winter is coming" speech. Arianne must grow up and quit playing her plotting games and gossip.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

One way or another, I do think Doran and Oberyn likely had some dealings in the fates of young Viserys and the current Dany, whether she's the original Dany or no. But given the amount of space between the so called pact and the reveal of it, seems like he's had plenty of time to manufacture it after Robert's death, assuming he feared him. He only reveals it after Robert's death.

He reveals it after Arianne has placed Dorne in risk of war with the Iron Throne. Either he has to begin to trust his daughter and take her into his confidences or he has to remove her from any ability to do further damage. Robert's death has little to do with it.

But, yes, Doran has had more than enough time to manufacture evidence during the long years since the marriage contract was signed. But the question is for what purpose would he make such evidence? The evidence is treasonous and is probable cause for war against Dorne. How does this make sense for Doran to do? It doesn't. It most certainly is not evidence manufactured after Arianne's betrayal with Myrcella. Quentyn is long gone with the document when they take Myrcella for her ride across the desert.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed. I think we don't yet have Doran's full motive. 

Only we do. We are told the motive - "Fire and Blood." The restoration of the Targaryens to the Iron Throne and vengeance on all of those who helped kill Elia and her children. This is a very straightforward motive that is supported by everything we know about both the Martell brothers. The pact is proof of his secret support for the Targaryens for all of these years. It ties House Martell to this effort in the most basic way possible - through a new marriage to House Targaryen. Doran shows this motive not only in the pact negotiated with Ser Willem, but in his sending his son to Daenerys and his daughter to "Aegon." All of this is consistent and supports what we know of the pact and its history.

The idea the pact is a fake is what makes no sense, and is without a understandable motive for the Martells to do.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

No--we have the House of Black and White's "founding tale" to Arya, about Braavosi hatred of dragonlords. Which should make us suspicious of that pact.

We also have abundant historical evidence that none of that stopped the Iron Bank from dealing with the Targaryens over long periods of time. It should also be remembered that during the time of the marriage pact the Targaryens have been dragonless for well over a century, and slavery has been outlawed in Westeros for a very long time, unlike in some of the Free Cities. We need a much better reason to begin to question the authenticity of the pact.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And that suspicion is heightened when very purple Tycho shows up and tells Jon flat out that not only the Faceless Men, but also the Iron Bank despise dragonlords. Those alone tell us something is likely to be amok with Doran's current story.

Which calls into question what the Iron Bank, the Faceless Men, and the Sealord of Braavos will do if they find proof Dany has brought dragons back into the world, but has nothing to do with what happened when Dany was a child of four or five.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Do we have any evidence Quentyn read the sig a lot?

And I do think Oberyn was involved in all of this early on--he's named after a very famous child stealer and poisoner. We seen the poison--where's the changing? I think there's a decent chance that pact with the sealord was about something else entirely. And the current Dany first lived in Dorne.

No, but we have no reason to believe he would not recognize his uncle's signature or seal if it is attached to the pact. A family member has to be among the most likely of suspects to do so.

As to Oberyn being equal to Shakespeare's Oberon, we just have a very fundamental disagreement on how Martin uses themes and characters he borrows from history or other authors. I think Martin always gives them twist of his own. I also think we need evidence to show a different meaning of this pact from what is supported in the text. We don't have it.

And we have nothing that points to Dany's memories of the house with the red door and the lemon tree being in Dorne.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Tycho and the Faceless Men tell us there's likely something wrong with that current pact. And we know Doran is willing to lie to his children--and has good reason to do so in Arianne's case.

Stories of the founding of Braavos and historical bias against dragonlords really don't cast doubt on the marriage pact. If anything we have a very mixed response we would expect from the Braavosi. The stories of Dany and her dragons have also to include her wars on the slavers cities in Slaver's Bay and her freeing the slaves there. The fact of dragons being brought back in the world would make anyone take stock of this development, but the Iron Bank and Braavos lived with and dealt with Targaryens with dragons for an awful long time without killing them or their dragons. But again, the pact itself is well before the birth of Dany's dragons and can't be used as proof of it being a fake because of their birth.

We have abundant evidence this is not a lie and the pact is not a fake. We have no evidence that points to it being one. Only a tinfoil theory that may be sparkly and pretty to think about, but it shouldn't blind us to the real evidence.

 

Edited by SFDanny

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

@Lollygag beat me to laying all this out.

The novels do a solid job showing us that lemons are tied to Dorne. And not Braavos.

They absolutely could be kept in gardens in real life. But narratively, Martin takes time to say we should look to Dorne.

All of which should have us question how and why is there a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, not that it is in Braavos. Certainly not that Dany is not Dany. Absolutely look to Dorne, because it signifies a Dornish tie to the Targaryens in exile that we don't see anywhere else until we discover the marriage pact in A Feast for Crows. This is classic Martin. The bare hints of things followed by more open clues. Follow the clues, not the preconceived theory based on thin air.

Edited by SFDanny

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7 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Now I'm giving the lemongaters the benefit of the doubt, let's say her lemon tree and red door was in Dorne....what is the point of all it?

R+L=D? B+A=J?

Yes, as I mentioned I think the DNA of B+A and R+L is what's important, so there needs to be a child from each couple. But that's just my personal theory.

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On 1/29/2019 at 5:40 AM, Ran said:

I can imagine a number of scenarios where it's quite revealing if the servants hired for caring for these special guests started to steal from them and basically abandoned them. Old Sealord who made all the agreements died, his successor found that he had put them knee-deep in a plot to destabilize Westeros and got spooked, and basically used an impolite way to usher them out (shades of Xaro's treatment of Dany when he was done with her)? Darry too ill and the servants told they can be dismissive in the wake of it as a means of driving them from Braavos in a way that pulled suspicion away from the Braavosi? Darry poisoned and servants paid off by co-conspirators of the Braavosi who wanted to end the Sealord's involvement in the affairs of the Targaryens? 

Lots of possibilities.

Kind of a lot of manipulation and planning went completely unnoticed by Viserys. Was Viserys just that dumb or was he too young to fully understand, work with the situation dealt to him.

 

Like why didnt the golden company take them in the first place or once they were kicked out of Braavos?

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On 1/26/2019 at 10:53 PM, Platypus Rex said:

This is a poll.  Please answer "Yes" or "No" to the following question:

Is the House with the Red Door, which Daenerys Remembers from her Childhood as being in Braavos, Actually Somewhere in Dorne?

For context, this obviously relates to an idea dubbed "Lemongate", "Lemongate", by itself, means only that the lemon-tree outside Dany's window, and its seeming inconsistency with the climate of Braavos, is a clue to some mystery or secret about Dany's past.  However, "the lemon tree means something", by itself, is not much of a theory.  Slightly braver theorists have guessed that the lemon tree is a signal that the house with the red door is actually somewhere far to the south of Braavos, such as Lys, or Myr or Tyrosh or Dorne (which, for various reasons, is the top suspect), or any other place whose climate might be more friendly to lemons.  Those who reject this idea prefer other explanations for the lemon tree, such as (for instance) Dany was staying at the Sealord's Palace, who maintains a garden, and a menagerie of exotic species.  Still others reject "Lemongate" entirely, arguing that the lemon-tree has no significance at all, and is (for instance) merely a discrepancy left over from an early draft, when her city of exile was situated in the South.

Even braver theorists, have connected these ideas with more elaborate theories, and guessed that Dany is not, as she believes, actually the daughter of Rhaella, born on Dragonstone, but the child of other parents, such as Ashara, or Lyanna, or some random Lysene prostitute or lowborn slave.  However, the above question does not ask you to take a position on such issues.  The question to be answered is simply as stated above in bold.

Please feel free to give reasons for your answers, or otherwise elaborate.  However, please do not argue with the reasons given by other posters for at least a couple of pages.  After that, have at it.

Thanks in advance to all voters.

EDIT:  8 in favor to 26 against, so far.

For "Yes":  TPTWP Timett, Sly Wren, Nezza86, Impbread, Sophia Wilson17, Sigella., Lollygag, Sweet Desire.

For "No":  Wolf's Bane, chrisdaw. Back door hodor, Ygrain, King Aegon I Targaryen, Vaith, Bowen 747, White Ravens, Missing Benjen, Three-Fingered Pete, Gertrude, Ran, Frey family reunion, bent branch, Megavora, Bael's Bastard, HelmHammerhand, The Map Guy, Morte, SFDanny, Wolf of the Steppes, Faera, Alexis-something-Rose, OtherFromAnotherMother, Clegane'sPup, Enuma Elish.

----------------------------------------------

Previous "Unpopular Theory" Polls:

"Did Summer See a Dragon?":  7 for to 36 against (16.3%).  Supported by:  Legitimate_Bastard, rustythesmith, TPTWP Timett, Remirem, kleevedge, Gertrude, and sweetsunray

"Did Jojen Die Off-Page in DANCE?":  14 for to 29 against (33.6%).  Supported by:  Gertrude, chrisdaw, WyldFyre, Penny's Got a Gun, Megavora, Back door hodor, Lost Melnibonean, Tucu, acwill07, Ibbison from Ibben, Son of Man, Remiem, OtherFromAnotherMother, Lynette. 

No

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27 minutes ago, lysmonger said:

Like why didnt the golden company take them in the first place or once they were kicked out of Braavos?

Blackfyre supporters put aside their century of trying to kill Targaryen Kings? In favor of helping Viserys to reclaim his throne? Never happen! Targaryens and Blackfyres don't mix. Do they?B)

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12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

As all tinfoil palaces and hats should be!

I really have no problem with tinfoil if we know what kind of territory in which we are operating. I've advance a few tinfoil theories myself over the years.

Tinfoil makes life fabulous. :cheers:

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

He tells a story of treason, as he admits to Quentyn. That's really not the kind of thing you make up and give over to someone he doesn't trust. Rather it is an explanation of the real story that he finally entrusts to his heir because he finally realizes his keeping the truth from her has done both of them, and Dorne, much more harm than sharing the secrets could do. This is his "Arya, winter is coming" speech. Arianne must grow up and quit playing her plotting games and gossip.

Before diving in, I need to clarify something I failed to last time: I do think Doran, Oberyn, and the Sealord very likely were up to something. And that regardless, the Pact is probably a version of the truth. I just struggle with taking it at face value.

On the "admissions"--Doran does this after Robert is dead. And he and the Lannisters already loathe each other.  

And I agree this could be a "winter is coming" speech. But given how badly Arianne just screwed up, Doran's got good motive not to tell her the whole truth here.

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

He reveals it after Arianne has placed Dorne in risk of war with the Iron Throne. Either he has to begin to trust his daughter and take her into his confidences or he has to remove her from any ability to do further damage. Robert's death has little to do with it.

Or he has to tell her just enough to keep her in line. To make her think she's in on his plans.

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Only we do. We are told the motive - "Fire and Blood." The restoration of the Targaryens to the Iron Throne and vengeance on all of those who helped kill Elia and her children. This is a very straightforward motive that is supported by everything we know about both the Martell brothers.

The vengeance--yes. Restoring the Targs seems less likely after how Aerys and Rhaegar treated Elia. Using the Targs to gain the throne and then having them killed and keeping the throne for themselves? That I can buy. I think there's a good chance that Pact was less about Targ restoration and more about using the last Targs to establish Martell dominance.

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

 Doran shows this motive not only in the pact negotiated with Ser Willem, but in his sending his son to Daenerys and his daughter to "Aegon." All of this is consistent and supports what we know of the pact and its history.

I do think it shows he's intended to use the Targs. I'd also add that if Lemore is Tyene's mother (one of my favorite theories I read somewhere on this forum), then Oberyn and Doran have been keeping an eye on as many of the Targs as they can.

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The idea the pact is a fake is what makes no sense, and is without a understandable motive for the Martells to do.

If the Martells are still angry about how the Targs treated Elia, then it makes sense that Pact wasn't really about restoring the Targs.

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We also have abundant historical evidence that none of that stopped the Iron Bank from dealing with the Targaryens over long periods of time. It should also be remembered that during the time of the marriage pact the Targaryens have been dragonless for well over a century, and slavery has been outlawed in Westeros for a very long time, unlike in some of the Free Cities. We need a much better reason to begin to question the authenticity of the pact.

There's a big difference between dealing with the Targs when they are in power and restoring them after they've finally fallen.

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Which calls into question what the Iron Bank, the Faceless Men, and the Sealord of Braavos will do if they find proof Dany has brought dragons back into the world, but has nothing to do with what happened when Dany was a child of four or five.

Yes--that is a good question. But given the Targ concept of dominance (Fire and Blood), letting anyone restore that society seems out of line with what Tycho and the Faceless Men tell us. Preventing that kind of restoration seems. . . in line with Braavosi ideals.

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

As to Oberyn being equal to Shakespeare's Oberon, we just have a very fundamental disagreement on how Martin uses themes and characters he borrows from history or other authors. I think Martin always gives them twist of his own.

Agreed--Oberyn is much more dangerous than Oberon. There could easily be other twists. But Martin choses that name (put it in the Appendices) two books before Oberyn is event mentioned in the novels. That name choice was intentional. And Oberon is famous for poisoning/dosing people and fighting over a stolen changeling. We should keep our eyes open for a changeling.

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

And we have nothing that points to Dany's memories of the house with the red door and the lemon tree being in Dorne.

We have a lot of narrative focus telling us to look to Dorne, not Braavos, for the lemons.

Quick question: do you espouse the theory that the lemon tree was a gift from Oberyn to the Sealord? If not, skip the rest of this. But if so, I think I'm missing something on that theory: do we have any evidence/mention that the Martells give trees of any sort as gifts? Or that the Sealord would want one? That anyone in the books gives trees as Pact gifts? If anything, seems like one would give the Sealord an animal if one wanted to impress him. Trying to figure this theory out because I'm kinda lost on it. . . .

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We have abundant evidence this is not a lie and the pact is not a fake. We have no evidence that points to it being one. Only a tinfoil theory that may be sparkly and pretty to think about, but it shouldn't blind us to the real evidence.

Agreed on the tinfoil. 

But we do have evidence to suspect that Doran and Oberyn don't play straight. And that their wanting to restore the Targs is odd given Oberyn's hatred fro those that hurt Elia. 

12 hours ago, SFDanny said:

All of which should have us question how and why is there a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, not that it is in Braavos. Certainly not that Dany is not Dany. Absolutely look to Dorne, because it signifies a Dornish tie to the Targaryens in exile that we don't see anywhere else until we discover the marriage pact in A Feast for Crows. This is classic Martin. The bare hints of things followed by more open clues. Follow the clues, not the preconceived theory based on thin air.

On the bolded--but. . . . why not? Why is that not an option?

I agree that we should look for the Dornish tie to the exiled Targs. And the clues upon clues. But why shouldn't we consider that one or both of them were in Dorne? And that the possibility that Dany misremembers this might be important?

As for Dany not being the original Dany--the lemon tree alone doesn't get us there. No way. But "clues upon clues"--there's enough to raise the question. 

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Tinfoil makes life fabulous. :cheers:

Here is to a fabulous life then! :cheers:

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Before diving in, I need to clarify something I failed to last time: I do think Doran, Oberyn, and the Sealord very likely were up to something. And that regardless, the Pact is probably a version of the truth. I just struggle with taking it at face value.

On the "admissions"--Doran does this after Robert is dead. And he and the Lannisters already loathe each other.  

And I agree this could be a "winter is coming" speech. But given how badly Arianne just screwed up, Doran's got good motive not to tell her the whole truth here.

Ok, I think I agree to all of this except the last sentence. I think what we see is that Doran has had good reason to keep his daughter in the dark about all of this, but he has found out the hard way that in judging her weaknesses he has almost destroyed his relationship with his daughter and heir by excluding her from the real truth. That is the story as I see it played out between the two of them and I don't see a good reason to see his turn to bringing Arianne into his confidence is a ruse. Doran needs Arianne to be true to him, and I think he finally, and almost too late, makes the decision to be true with her.

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Or he has to tell her just enough to keep her in line. To make her think she's in on his plans.

I disagree this is his tactic. But more importantly, we can be sure the marriage pact is not a fake made up to fool Arianne. Two things are proof of this. The pact goes with Quentyn in his quest to get to Dany and arrange a new marriage between Quentyn and Daenerys. This happens before Arianne's plot with Myrcella. It is not in response to anything Arianne has done.

Secondly, in revealing the pact to Arianne, Prince Doran also speaks of his motives in having Arianne only meet with prospective suitors who he knew she would reject. This isn't fake history. It is Arianne's real experiences with the men she has been presented with as possible husbands. The story Doran tells her explains this history and cannot possibly be part of tricking her into accepting a lie about a fake pact. It is important to note that Quentyn's journey looks to start after the news of Viserys's death reaches Westeros. Which makes sense because the marriage pact is no longer binding on House Targaryen or House Martell after his death. 

Which brings us to a second possibility. If the pact itself is a fake, why is it constructed as a pact to marry Viserys and Arianne, and not a pact to wed Quentyn to Daenerys? If this pact is made up in order to help Quentyn win Dany's hand, as opposed to just fool Arianne, why settle for a fake that creates some agreement that is voided by Viserys's death? It could just as easily have been forged to say Quentyn and Dany are betrothed from the same period, but it doesn't do so. A fake that's meant to show ties from Dany's childhood with House Martell isn't good enough for the mission Quentyn is sent to accomplish. If Doran is just making shit up, why not do so in a way that is likely to work? Perhaps because we are dealing with the truth, and not all of it is as convenient to the political aims as House Martell would wish it to be. This, again, fits with Arianne's history with suitors. 

The vengeance--yes. Restoring the Targs seems less likely after how Aerys and Rhaegar treated Elia. Using the Targs to gain the throne and then having them killed and keeping the throne for themselves? That I can buy. I think there's a good chance that Pact was less about Targ restoration and more about using the last Targs to establish Martell dominance.

Dorne can never win the Iron Throne under the name of House Martell. They need marriages into the Targaryen line to accomplish this. Elia's son was meant to do so. Arianne's betrothal to Viserys and her future child with him was meant to do so as well. As is the proposed marriage of Quentyn to Daenerys. Dorne doesn't want to kill the Targaryens. They want to become them. A half Dornish son as king, and controlled by his ties to Sunspear, accomplishes Doran's plans.

more later

 

 

Edited by SFDanny

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16 hours ago, Lollygag said:

People who don't know Medieval/Medieval-based fantasy rich folk gardening habits are woefully ignorant? 

I think you should examine this statement of yours. It bears no relationship at all to the conversion we had or my answers. I don't think you want to leave it standing given what it says about you.
You are the one who brought up medieval level rich folk gardening habits, not me. I said that it was not necessary to know anything about such habits
You said much of the modern world (ie potential readers) are woefully lacking in basic common knowledge, let alone such esoteric knowledge. I said that esoteric knowledge was not needed at all, and GRRM's writing isn't aimed at the woefully ignorant, its aimed at people with a decent understanding of the world and how it works.

A decent understanding of the world and how it works clearly doesn't require esoteric knowledge that isn't needed at all.
 

16 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Lemon trees are overwhelmingly linked to Dorne contrary to what you initially claimed, not chilly, cloudy climates. I already showed this.

They are linked to hot climes yes. And there are just as many links to cold climes plus wealth.
Red door house in Braavos is cold clime plus wealth. There is nothing suspicious about it. It is a data point backed up by Dany's other memories (travelling after being cast out) and by the Sealord's signature on the marriage document which ties Willem Darry and Dany and Viserys to Braavos.

There is nothing linking the red door house to Dorne. A lemon tree does not signify Dorne in the text. It signifies either a hot clime (including Dorne, other Free Cities, Meeren, etc) or a cold clime + wealth. As your quotes, plus the ones you missed, clearly showed.

16 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Underscore Dany's memories being full of doubt meaning doubt has been planted into the readers' heads for some reason. Arya gets the no citrus in Braavos lecture. Dude doesn't tell her that only rich folk have citrus. He just says the trees aren't there.

No, he says he expected to see them and hasn't. Not that they aren't there. He does NOT say there are no trees in Braavos. Just that his expectations of seeing lots of Citrus tress (more importantly other things - bare bellied girls) has not been met.

Quote

"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates

He has a misinformed expectation of Braavos, confusing it with the more Southern Free Cities. He's not giving us a definitive detailed commentary on the contents of Braavos, he's complaining that its not like he expected.

The other guard, tells him his expectations (bare bellied girls, hot nights, citrus tress etc) are matched to the southern Free Cities.
 

16 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Would've been a great opportunity to clear that up, no? But it wasn't. There's also the great wooden beams when Arya says there are no trees. It doesn't add up. If you want to ignore that, go ahead. I'm staying on the fence on this one, but I'm not ignoring the Dorne/lemon thing as GRRM has seen fit to repeat it over and over and over. 

And for the record, lemon trees are very easy to grow from seed and seeds are easy to transport and plentiful in Dorne. You only need the right climate to grow it. But I don't expect the typical reader to know this and I don't think GRRM expected knowledge of this. Just FYI. So no, lemon trees or any tree easy to grow from seed when the seed is plentiful aren't just for the rich. 

Braavos does not have any trees in general because its built on hundreds of small islands on a lagoon. Similar in a way to Venice. It does in fact have tall pines on some of the outer islands, but they are illegal to cut down as they create a wind break for the rest of the city. Hence little to no wood. Firewood has to be brought in by barge.

Space to have trees in a garden, and the wherewithal to have them tended, is very much a province of the rich in Braavos. And if you are going to have trees in those circumstances, might as well have relatively exotic ones that give a return in the form of luxury fruit.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

@Lollygag beat me to laying all this out.

The novels do a solid job showing us that lemons are tied to Dorne. And not Braavos.

They absolutely could be kept in gardens in real life. But narratively, Martin takes time to say we should look to Dorne.

IMO this is a poor reading. It picks and chooses only the data points it wants instead of integrating all the data. Martin tells us that lemons are a hot clime fruits but are found anywhere there is wealth. He lets us know that Braavos is not a natural place for them, then fits them in exactly the way they fit everywhere else they are not natural - with wealth and as something memorable, just as they are seen at the Wall, the Twins, Winterfell and other cold places.

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19 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

why did George go out of his way to give Sharna that line about lemons

Possibly because the innkeeper was being facetious (in fun, in jest, witty, amusing, funny, droll, comic, comical, chucklesome, lighthearted, high-spirited, bantering)?

A Storm of Swords - Arya II   "Hang this," she said, handing him the duck.   Anguy shuffled his feet. "We were thinking we might eat it, Sharna. With lemons. If you had some."    "Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too."

18 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

And if Dany was in Dorne after TOJ, how come she only sees one lemon tree? Why not a farm of lemon trees?

Argh --- I'm being a fussy nitpicker --- would not it be a grove?

18 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

When life gives us lemons, we make lemonade.

I got tired of making lemonade. Now I make orange juice.

:D

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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18 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

When life gives us lemons, we make lemonade. margaritas!

FTFY. :P

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

I do think it shows he's intended to use the Targs. I'd also add that if Lemore is Tyene's mother (one of my favorite theories I read somewhere on this forum), then Oberyn and Doran have been keeping an eye on as many of the Targs as they can.

In all alliances there is some use of the other side, so in that we don't disagree. But this an alliance of great risk. Especially for the Martells. If found out it likely spells the end of their rule in Sunspear, as well as the end of any hope of any restoration.

As to Tyene's mother being Lemore, I think we have proof that this is not so, or that she is not in contact with the Martells. Why? Because if the Martells knew of Young Griff claim to be Aegon and they believed it then we would see two very different things in our story. They would not be interested in marrying Arianne to Viserys, nor would they send Arianne out to verify the claim. All effort would be to place Elia's child on the throne.

If they are in on a plot to pass a known pretender off as Elia's son, then they would not, again, be sending Arianne out to verify the claim. No, if Lemore is Tyene's mother then she is not working with or communicating with Doran.

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

If the Martells are still angry about how the Targs treated Elia, then it makes sense that Pact wasn't really about restoring the Targs.

Revenge, the restoration of Dornish power and influence, and the prospect of a half-Dornish king all hinge on the Targaryen restoration. Old angers concerning Rhaegar's treatment of Elia have no impact on those goals.

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

There's a big difference between dealing with the Targs when they are in power and restoring them after they've finally fallen.

Yes, there is a big difference, and we don't know much about the reasons the old Sealord of Braavos had for supporting the Targaryen children in exile. Perhaps he didn't believe Robert could hold onto power as long as he did. Perhaps the Iron Bank held Targaryen debts that wouldn't be paid if the were not restored to power. Perhaps they liked the relationship the Targaryens and Braavos had cultivated over the years since the conquest. Perhaps the Martells had a special relationship with this Sealord. Or perhaps the Sealord just didn't like usurpers. We don't know, but the pact shows that he, at least, was willing to host the Targaryens and be wiling to sign his name to a pact that could bring Robert and Braavos into war.

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--that is a good question. But given the Targ concept of dominance (Fire and Blood), letting anyone restore that society seems out of line with what Tycho and the Faceless Men tell us. Preventing that kind of restoration seems. . . in line with Braavosi ideals.

Perhaps we see the Braavosi differently. I see them as a merchant city based on sea trade. That they have a bias against slavery is something both they and Westeros agree upon, including the Targaryens. Outside of that, I don't see Braavos as exporter of revolution against autocrats. As long as they make money, they seem perfectly happy to coexist with despots and monarch of all kinds. The Targaryens are no different. Now, the rebirth of Dragons may change that, but the history of the Targaryens  with the Braavosi is in essence a peaceful and mutually beneficial one. Certainly, when the pact was made there were no ideals that would prevent them from working together.

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--Oberyn is much more dangerous than Oberon. There could easily be other twists. But Martin choses that name (put it in the Appendices) two books before Oberyn is event mentioned in the novels. That name choice was intentional. And Oberon is famous for poisoning/dosing people and fighting over a stolen changeling. We should keep our eyes open for a changeling.

That would be too close to stealing in my opinion.

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

We have a lot of narrative focus telling us to look to Dorne, not Braavos, for the lemons.

I have no problem in looking for a Dornish connection to the lemon tree in Braavos. I just think jumping to idea that the house with the Red Door must be in Dorne or that Dany is not Dany because of this clue is the height of tinfoil thinking. We have independent confirmation of Ser Willem secreting Viserys and Dany out of Dragonstone and on to the Free Cities. We have nothing that points to them going to Dorne and every reason to believe it would have been a disaster if they had been found there. And Robert seemed to know where they where when he tells Ned, "I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you." (AGoT125)

 

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Quick question: do you espouse the theory that the lemon tree was a gift from Oberyn to the Sealord? If not, skip the rest of this. But if so, I think I'm missing something on that theory: do we have any evidence/mention that the Martells give trees of any sort as gifts? Or that the Sealord would want one? That anyone in the books gives trees as Pact gifts? If anything, seems like one would give the Sealord an animal if one wanted to impress him. Trying to figure this theory out because I'm kinda lost on it. . . .

I do think Oberyn brings the tree to Braavos when he goes there as a gift to the Targaryens, not to the Sealord. A visual reminder that Dorne is with them. Obviously I don't have proof this is so, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. It just makes sense, and I think it likely.

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed on the tinfoil. 

But we do have evidence to suspect that Doran and Oberyn don't play straight. And that their wanting to restore the Targs is odd given Oberyn's hatred fro those that hurt Elia.

I think I've answer this above, but let me add again that Oberyn's "hatred" towards Rhaegar and his treatment of Elia is insignificant towards his burning desire to kill the murderers of his sister and her children. Viserys and Daenerys have nothing to do with any of this, but they do provide a means to get his revenge.

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

On the bolded--but. . . . why not? Why is that not an option?

I agree that we should look for the Dornish tie to the exiled Targs. And the clues upon clues. But why shouldn't we consider that one or both of them were in Dorne? And that the possibility that Dany misremembers this might be important?

As for Dany not being the original Dany--the lemon tree alone doesn't get us there. No way. But "clues upon clues"--there's enough to raise the question. 

Because Dany's memories are verified by other evidence, such as the pact. There is nothing that points to the Targaryen children going to Dorne from Dragonstone, and many reasons for them not to go there. A Targaryen claimant to the throne residing in Dorne would have meant war between the rebels and the Martells. For them to go to the Free Cities as refugees may have meant strained relations with Robert, but Robert could not then wage war on Braavos or any other of the Free Cities. But we are not really talking about whether or not they could have gone to Dorne first. We are talking about whether or not Dany's memories of Ser Willem, Viserys, the servants, the lemon tree, etc. are from Dorne or Braavos. Meaning when she was old enough to remember these things, not when she was a newborn babe at her wet nurses breast. Again, her memories of three or four or five years old of these things are verified by the pact and other things including the reports to Robert that they had escaped to the Free Cities. There really is no reason to make up Potemkin villages in Dorne on the basis of lemon trees being native there.

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24 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

we don't know much about the reasons the old Sealord of Braavos had for supporting the Targaryen children in exile. Perhaps he didn't believe Robert could hold onto power as long as he did. Perhaps the Iron Bank held Targaryen debts that wouldn't be paid if the were not restored to power. Perhaps they liked the relationship the Targaryens and Braavos had cultivated over the years since the conquest. Perhaps the Martells had a special relationship with this Sealord. Or perhaps the Sealord just didn't like usurpers. We don't know, but the pact shows that he, at least, was willing to host the Targaryens and be wiling to sign his name to a pact that could bring Robert and Braavos into war.

Or maybe the guy hosting them was in possession of three dragon eggs, which had come to Braavos more than 200 years earlier, and wanted to make use of their Targaryen blood. Fighting tinfoil with tinfoil...

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22 hours ago, corbon said:

Braavos is obviously not the same latitude as Venice, or Dunedin.  And London, in South England, is far from being the epitome of cloudy and sunless regions. And once you start sending me pictures of potted plants (some which look like Meyer Lemons, which are not true lemons) grown in pots on balconies and in flower shops and moved indoors for the winter to their sunlamps, then the conversation is over.  Next you'll be telling me that lemons can be grown on spaceships.  Which is probably true.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Possibly because the innkeeper was being facetious (in fun, in jest, witty, amusing, funny, droll, comic, comical, chucklesome, lighthearted, high-spirited, bantering)?

That's not an answer to my question... why did GEORGE go OUT OF HIS WAY to write that lemon-related dialogue? He obviously knows it will be interpreted as a clue about Dany by many readers.

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5 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Braavos is obviously not the same latitude as Venice, or Dunedin.  And London, in South England, is far from being the epitome of cloudy and sunless regions. And once you start sending me pictures of Meyer Lemon bushes (not true lemons) grown in pots on balconies and moved indoors for the winter to their sunlamps, then the conversation is over.  Next you'll be telling me that lemons can be grown on spaceships.  Which is probably true.

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/12/20/a-song-of-lines-and-latitude/ 
Actually, it is.

I think you are conflating climate directly with latitude. While the two have some association, there are far more significant factors, which is why you have Minneapolis, Chicago and Detroit, with famously cold climates, at the same or lower latitude than Venice.

London, from where I live, is rather the byword for cloudy and gloomy. Seems very much similar to Braavos to me. A wet, gloomy, cloudy city, but not so clearly 'cold' as to have regular snow on the ground.

Dunedin I also chose because I lived there for a while and its is famously similar to Edinburg, which is why the scots settlers there named in Dun Edin and tried to rebuild scottish architecture. It has a colder climate than you'd expect, because of the antarctic current which flows very close to the shore, yet does not often get snow. It seems fairly close to what we know of Braavos, in climate.

As for the lemons, I just googled "lemon trees london" and grabbed a few picture links. My own experience is 1-2 lemon trees in a back garden being very common in Dunedin. I couldn't differentiate between any type of tree, true or false, just eat the lemons grown on them.

The point is, its clearly not true at all that lemon trees couldn't exist in Braavos.

9 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

That's not an answer to my question... why did GEORGE go OUT OF HIS WAY to write that lemon-related dialogue? He obviously knows it will be interpreted as a clue about Dany by many readers.

Did he go out of his way?
There is lemon-related dialogue in many places. Lemons a clearly something of a well known luxury item for people not from hot climes, and something they casually look for in hot climes as a consequence. I don't see lemons at Winterfell, the Wall or the Twins as being clues to not-lemons in Braavos.

I don't think he expects it to be considered a clue by anyone. Its just a standard piece of background setting.
Answering "thats very perceptive" is, I suspect more of a 'wow, you paid so much attention, thats crazy" moment. And continuing with "Yes it does point to.. well that would be telling" is just an out and out non-answer trolling.

I guess the answer to the space ship lemon thing is that you'd insist that the spaceship was actually just sitting on an earthlike planet due to the existence of the lemon tree on the spaceship, not flying through space. And I'd insist that the lemon tree on the ship does not in any way show that the space ship is sitting on an earthlike planet, and we have all these other data points that show the ship is flying through space.

We'll see eventually which of us is right.

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