Lucamore Strong the oathbreaker

[Bowen 747]

Oaths are taken very, very seriously in Westeros.  It is the foundation for trust and relationships.  Even a loved member of the Kingsguard got gelded and banished to the north for oathbreaking.  Like Ned Stark said in GOT, no man is more dangerous than the oathbreaker.  It is silly to believe the people will forgive an oathbreaker.  Mance Rayder is a known oathbreaker.  He should have been executed for his crimes of desertion, which is oathbreaking.  He's a man who loved to love the women, like Lucamore.  He might accept a gelding if that were the extent of his crimes.  But he led a wildling attack on the wall.  That is treason against the kingdom.  Mance Rayder should have been executed.

[redriver]

He was.

[Curled Finger]

@Bowen 747, a man is only as good as his word, friend.   We see in Jamie and Jon the true value of oaths as political devices.   Jamie gave his oath as a star crossed vain glorious child beholden to a wicked mad king and Jon as a mopey child in search of identity.   Brienne and Sandor don't seem to have alternatives to their jobs and opt out of swearing the big knightly oath, but take on other oaths perhaps more impactful.   Overall Gregor has been true to his vows to Tywin if not knights in general, but what oath did he swear clear headed?    Say you were a young Dothraki screamer.  Your great khal has died.  Your khaleesi has just emerged from a raging hours long inferno with 3 baby dragons asking you to support her in her conquest of the WORLD.  Do you remain true to your culture and escort her to Vaes Dothrak or defend her to the death around the world?   Are you traditional or progressive?  Do you kill your nut bag murdering, raping king or kill your father?   In Mance's case, which isn't so different from Jon's in broad strokes, he was fostered as a child in the NW.  They raised him so he was brought up to take their restrictive vows.   He blames his affection for that red silk thread, but that thread is exemplary of everything that is wrong with the NW.   He loved a woman, not many, as the majority of Crows do.   The difference is that he made a conscious and public declaration to do so as a Free Man.   Lucamore was a sneak and stupid to get caught.  It's not that hard to break a vow and choose to do so with less foolishness.   I don't think there is any evidence that Mance wasn't true to this NW oaths as an active brother.    I only recall his engagement with Dalla, which isn't a ton of alleycatting and they were married.  Not quite the same in my estimation.   How guilty is Mance since he took his vows as a child who knew nothing else but the NW?   

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Oaths are taken very, very seriously in Westeros.  It is the foundation for trust and relationships.  Even a loved member of the Kingsguard got gelded and banished to the north for oathbreaking.  Like Ned Stark said in GOT, no man is more dangerous than the oathbreaker.  It is silly to believe the people will forgive an oathbreaker.  Mance Rayder is a known oathbreaker.  He should have been executed for his crimes of desertion, which is oathbreaking.  He's a man who loved to love the women, like Lucamore.  He might accept a gelding if that were the extent of his crimes.  But he led a wildling attack on the wall.  That is treason against the kingdom.  Mance Rayder should have been executed.

while it is a fantasy novel, even the characters there have an understanding of circumstance. So no, neither mance nor jon will be executed for oath breaking 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Sure, technically people like Mance should get executed, but if the story was that black and white it wouldn't be fun to read. 

[The Commentator]

The disastrous manner in which Jon handled the problem that was Janos and Mance is but one of the reasons why Jon is unfit to lead.  I don’t think his oath breaking will be swept under the rug. 

[kissdbyfire]

Oh silly me... I thought the thread was about Lucamore Strong! Turns out it’s just another infantile Jon hate thread.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

8 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The disastrous manner in which Jon handled the problem that was Janos and Mance is but one of the reasons why Jon is unfit to lead.  I don’t think his oath breaking will be swept under the rug. 

Which make me think Jon's future people are the wildlings.  His personality is not suited for leadership in a feudal system.  A tribal system might be alright for him though.  

[Pecan]

@Bowen 747 Congratulations on failing to put any sort of thought into your post. 

[The Commentator]

Back to Mance.  My read on this fellow says he’d rather die than get gelded.  Lucamore took the punishment but a lawless traitor like Mance is not going to.  Besides, Mance is not just an oath breaker. He is a sworn brother of the watch who attacked his brothers.

[zandru]

Mance Rayder was the son of a crow and daughter of a wildling. His "treason" was to return to his own people to defeat a force that could kill all of his people, and likely even the folks in the far south. By your logic, there can be no extenuating circumstances, but I believe otherwise. Mance's assault on the Wall was intended primarily to get his people acoss, where they might be safe. Like Jaime Lannister, kingslayer, put it, you have to swear and swear and swear. All those oaths! How can any man keep them all?

Now, I also think that when Mance arrived with his freefolk horde, he should have immediately spelled it out to Jon. For that matter, Mance should have told Jon while they were working together. But no - Mance tried to win the wall by violence. Maybe he assumed the crows would never talk to him, anyway - probably right. But Jon would have listened.

The only "good" that may have come from Mance's war at the wall was that there were many, many fewer of his people left by the time it ended. Unfortunately, it also dragged Stannis in.

I don't hold with "behead first, ask questions later". Here in the 21st c, we understand that motives are critical in determining guild or punishment. Ned should have thoroughly interregated Gared, then sent off a letter to The Olde Bear telling him what Gared had alleged and asking for direction. But apparently Ned assumed the situation was clearcut and only one outcome.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, zandru said:

I don't hold with "behead first, ask questions later"

Beheading first and asking questions later could only work w/ the “talking heads” (intended) at the Whispers anyway!

 

[Rufus Snow]

Yeah, yeah... words are wind, and no wind is favourable unless you know which port you're sailing to. 

 

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Beheading first and asking questions later could only work w/ the “talking heads” (intended) at the Whispers anyway!

It can work occasionally, maybe once in a  lifetime  ...

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 1/28/2019 at 9:05 PM, Enuma Elish said:

Which make me think Jon's future people are the wildlings.  His personality is not suited for leadership in a feudal system.  A tribal system might be alright for him though.  

It might fall out that way.  The wildlings and the black brothers will split.  The NW keeps Castle Black.  Most of the wildlings will die from their battle with the Boltons.  The survivors will take on the castles on the wall.   Jon might end up taking Mance Rayder's place as the leader of the wildlings.  There won't be a place in the seven kingdoms where a NW traitor will be welcomed.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

7 hours ago, zandru said:

Mance Rayder was the son of a crow and daughter of a wildling. His "treason" was to return to his own people to defeat a force that could kill all of his people, and likely even the folks in the far south. By your logic, there can be no extenuating circumstances, but I believe otherwise. Mance's assault on the Wall was intended primarily to get his people acoss, where they might be safe. Like Jaime Lannister, kingslayer, put it, you have to swear and swear and swear. All those oaths! How can any man keep them all?

Now, I also think that when Mance arrived with his freefolk horde, he should have immediately spelled it out to Jon. For that matter, Mance should have told Jon while they were working together. But no - Mance tried to win the wall by violence. Maybe he assumed the crows would never talk to him, anyway - probably right. But Jon would have listened.

The only "good" that may have come from Mance's war at the wall was that there were many, many fewer of his people left by the time it ended. Unfortunately, it also dragged Stannis in.

I don't hold with "behead first, ask questions later". Here in the 21st c, we understand that motives are critical in determining guild or punishment. Ned should have thoroughly interregated Gared, then sent off a letter to The Olde Bear telling him what Gared had alleged and asking for direction. But apparently Ned assumed the situation was clearcut and only one outcome.

Mance said the words and said his vows.  He is a man of the watch until he is dead.  And if he should come to life after that he will be required to honor his vows.  The man deserted for the stupidest of reasons.  He refused to obey a perfectly reasonable command from his superior officer.  He just got tired of obeying the rules and wanted to do as he pleased.   He's an oathbreaker who deserved an execution.  He deserved it more than Janos Slynt.

[HexMachina]

14 hours ago, zandru said:

Mance Rayder was the son of a crow and daughter of a wildling. His "treason" was to return to his own people to defeat a force that could kill all of his people, and likely even the folks in the far south. By your logic, there can be no extenuating circumstances, but I believe otherwise. Mance's assault on the Wall was intended primarily to get his people acoss, where they might be safe. Like Jaime Lannister, kingslayer, put it, you have to swear and swear and swear. All those oaths! How can any man keep them all?

Now, I also think that when Mance arrived with his freefolk horde, he should have immediately spelled it out to Jon. For that matter, Mance should have told Jon while they were working together. But no - Mance tried to win the wall by violence. Maybe he assumed the crows would never talk to him, anyway - probably right. But Jon would have listened.

The only "good" that may have come from Mance's war at the wall was that there were many, many fewer of his people left by the time it ended. Unfortunately, it also dragged Stannis in.

I don't hold with "behead first, ask questions later". Here in the 21st c, we understand that motives are critical in determining guild or punishment. Ned should have thoroughly interregated Gared, then sent off a letter to The Olde Bear telling him what Gared had alleged and asking for direction. But apparently Ned assumed the situation was clearcut and only one outcome.

Well, this bit isn’t really correct. He left because of the cloak incident. No indication he thought squat about the Otherw when he left. They don’t factor in until he starts uniting the wildlings.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 1/27/2019 at 2:22 PM, Bowen 747 said:

Oaths are taken very, very seriously in Westeros.  It is the foundation for trust and relationships.  Even a loved member of the Kingsguard got gelded and banished to the north for oathbreaking.  Like Ned Stark said in GOT, no man is more dangerous than the oathbreaker.  It is silly to believe the people will forgive an oathbreaker.  Mance Rayder is a known oathbreaker.  He should have been executed for his crimes of desertion, which is oathbreaking.  He's a man who loved to love the women, like Lucamore.  He might accept a gelding if that were the extent of his crimes.  But he led a wildling attack on the wall.  That is treason against the kingdom.  Mance Rayder should have been executed.

He'll get his punishment.  He's already wearing the skins of his women and displayed before the public.  Jon's perversion of justice did not go unpunished.  

[Damsel in Distress]

On 1/27/2019 at 2:22 PM, Bowen 747 said:

Oaths are taken very, very seriously in Westeros.  It is the foundation for trust and relationships.  Even a loved member of the Kingsguard got gelded and banished to the north for oathbreaking.  Like Ned Stark said in GOT, no man is more dangerous than the oathbreaker.  It is silly to believe the people will forgive an oathbreaker.  Mance Rayder is a known oathbreaker.  He should have been executed for his crimes of desertion, which is oathbreaking.  He's a man who loved to love the women, like Lucamore.  He might accept a gelding if that were the extent of his crimes.  But he led a wildling attack on the wall.  That is treason against the kingdom.  Mance Rayder should have been executed.

Mance will wish for death when Ramsay starts showing off his interrogation skills.  Oathbreakers are not forgiven.  Remember what Ned did to Gared?  Deserters like them lose their heads.  Gared had an excuse.  PTSD.  Mance has no excuse.   

[Darth Sidious]

Mance is Jon's daddy.  It's a reverse of what happened between the original Bael and his Stark son.  The Stark son allowed his wildling daddy to go unpunished.  It's not unlike Robb letting Catelyn go unpunished after beheading Karstark.