Who were the Tyrells involved in the Purple Wedding?

[Makk]

I think Oleena obviously and margaery to some extent. I think Garlan was likely as well. If you read the entire scene knowing he was the one who actually killed Joffery, it is an entirely different take on his character than if he was completely oblivious to it. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

18 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Joffrey slices his own piece of cake

 

Except that he doesn't:

 

ASoS - Tyrion VIII:

Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily.

 

Joff is slicing the ceremonial pie, not the eating pie. Tyrion's (cooked) piece shows up in front of him immediately after this, before the doves have flown away.

 

18 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It also goes against GRRM's own words on the matter.  GRRM once said it was called the purple wedding because the wine was purple and it played a very important role, since we can see right in the text that the wine changed colors from red to purple, the color of the strangler bead, it is all pretty self explanatory.

 

Except that it didn't:

 

ASoS - Tyrion VIII:

 

"It's, kof, the pie, noth—kof, pie." Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. "I, kof, I can't, kof kof kof kof . . . " The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's the pie. There was a ton of time between when Joff left the chalice on the table to when he got back. Anyone in the vicinity could have poisoned the wine while attention was elsewhere. Olenna simply retrieved the poison, she didn't have to administer it.

Personally, I believe that it was Ser Pounce that poisoned the wine. Think about it:

Who would everyone suspect the least? Tommen.

Who stood to gain the most from Joff's removal? Tommen.

Who gained the crown and the girl? Tommen.

Who would the Tyrells rather have Margaery marry? Tommen.

Who was sly and surreptitious enough to be named only once during the entire feast? Tommen. Squealing in delight at jousting dwarves, phooey! Everyone knows he likes Tyrion. That act didn't fool anyone!

Yeah, Ser Pounce just padded in all nice and quiet-like, did the deed, and got out like a real pro, silent as a cat. The purrrfect operative.

ETA: And he'll never talk because the cat's got his tongue!

[Ygrain]

Margaery definitely knew she didn't have to worry about Joff's abusive nature and she must have known she shouldn't drink from a certain point on, or else it would have been too risky.

Other than that, there must have been at least one person in the know to drop the poison into the chalice because Olenna herself was too short to do it on her own. The Tyrells closest to the chalice were Garlan and Leonette. The former is the closest family, a capable and devoted man, I can see him do whatever it takes to protect his sister. The latter belongs to the circle Tyrell ladies who all seem to be very close, and Olenna doesn't seem to think very highly of the men in her family, so a couple women involved in not a stretch, either. However, I think that the most likely accomplice is Butterbumps, who is freely moving about the room, nobody pays him much attention and he possesses the skill to toss objects or manipulate them without people noticing. - But unless he is a secret Tyrell, he doesn't count in this thread :-)

 

[Peach King]

25 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

However, I think that the most likely accomplice is Butterbumps, who is freely moving about the room, nobody pays him much attention and he possesses the skill to toss objects or manipulate them without people noticing. - But unless he is a secret Tyrell, he doesn't count in this thread :-)

 

Wow that's interesting! I never even considered him. Thanks. 

[chrisdaw]

This conversation is character inconsistent if Marge had killed Joff.

Quote

"My cousins?" Margaery paled. "Alla and Megga are hardly more than children. Your Grace, this . . . this is obscene. Will you take us out of here?"

"Would that I could." Her voice was full of sorrow. "His High Holiness has his new knights guarding you. To free you I would need to send the gold cloaks and profane this holy place with killing." Cersei took Margaery's hand in hers. "I have not been idle, though. I have gathered up all those that Ser Osney named as your lovers. They will tell His High Holiness of your innocence, I am certain, and swear to it at your trial."

"Trial?" There was real fear in the girl's voice now. "Must there be a trial?"

"How else will you prove your innocence?" Cersei gave Margaery's hand a reassuring squeeze. "It is your right to decide the manner of the trial, to be sure. You are the queen. The knights of the Kingsguard are sworn to defend you."

Margaery understood at once. "A trial by battle? Loras is hurt, though, elsewise he . . ."

"He has six brothers."

Margaery stared at her, then pulled her hand away. "Is that a jape? Boros is a craven, Meryn is old and slow, your brother is maimed, the other two are off in Dorne, and Osmund is a bloody Kettleblack. Loras has two brothers, not six. If there's to be a trial by battle, I want Garlan as my champion."

"Ser Garlan is not a member of the Kingsguard," the queen said. "When the queen's honor is at issue, law and custom require that her champion be one of the king's sworn seven. The High Septon will insist, I fear." I will make certain of it.

Margaery did not answer at once, but her brown eyes narrowed in suspicion. "Blount or Trant," she said at last. "It would have to be one of them. You'd like that, wouldn't you? Osney Kettleblack would cut either one to pieces."

Seven hells. Cersei donned a look of hurt. "You wrong me, daughter. All I want - "

" - is your son, all for yourself. He will never have a wife that you don't hate. And I am not your daughter, thank the gods. Leave me."

"You are being foolish. I am only here to help you."

"To help me to my grave. I asked for you to leave. Will you make me call my gaolers and have you dragged away, you vile, scheming, evil bitch?"

Marge, this apparent ruthless master player who murdered a king for power seems awfully blind. She actually thinks Cersei is going to get her out, lol. It only just dawned on her that Cersei is working against her here and she thinks it is about Tommen's love, she doesn't even get that it is about power. And for having murdered Cersei's son she seems genuinely indignant doesn't she?

Marge is the Reach, flowery, sunny and sweet. She's singers and games and frolics and family. She knows nothing of cruelty or depravity. She's never had a fucking problem one of her brothers wasn't eager and able to solve instantly for her. Marge is no player, LF straight tells us this. All the Tyrell's ambitions belong to Lord Pufferfish. Marge doesn't care for the crown, but she does as she's told, willingly and dutifully like the perfect daughter she is. What she knows and what she cares for, as is made apparent very many times in the text, is her close loving family. All along she has been doing what she believes is the natural normal thing, what she's supposed to do, to be a loving caring wife. In Cersei Marge doesn't see a queen clutching at power that is being stripped from her by another queen, but a mother clutching at a son being lost to a wife, because that's how Marge thinks.

Marge is not a player and not a murderer, she does not revere Olenna and the two are not a tag murder team. The more worldly Olenna planned to murder Joff, but her oaf son Mace gifted a drinking chalice and Olenna couldn't risk the poisoning because, as Mace repeats many a time, both Marge and Joff drank from that same chalice. So she couldn't have done it, oaf Mace threw a spanner in Olenna's plans, so like him.

[Peach King]

8 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

This conversation is character inconsistent if Marge had killed Joff.

Marge, this apparent ruthless master player who murdered a king for power seems awfully blind. She actually thinks Cersei is going to get her out, lol. It only just dawned on her that Cersei is working against her here and she thinks it is about Tommen's love, she doesn't even get that it is about power. And for having murdered Cersei's son she seems genuinely indignant doesn't she?

Marge is the Reach, flowery, sunny and sweet. She's singers and games and frolics and family. She knows nothing of cruelty or depravity. She's never had a fucking problem one of her brothers wasn't eager and able to solve instantly for her. Marge is no player, LF straight tells us this. All the Tyrell's ambitions belong to Lord Pufferfish. Marge doesn't care for the crown, but she does as she's told, willingly and dutifully like the perfect daughter she is. What she knows and what she cares for, as is made apparent very many times in the text, is her close loving family. All along she has been doing what she believes is the natural normal thing, what she's supposed to do, to be a loving caring wife. In Cersei Marge doesn't see a queen clutching at power that is being stripped from her by another queen, but a mother clutching at a son being lost to a wife, because that's how Marge thinks.

Marge is not a player and not a murderer, she does not revere Olenna and the two are not a tag murder team. The more worldly Olenna planned to murder Joff, but her oaf son Mace gifted a drinking chalice and Olenna couldn't risk the poisoning because, as Mace repeats many a time, both Marge and Joff drank from that same chalice. So she couldn't have done it, oaf Mace threw a spanner in Olenna's plans, so like him.

I'll get back to you. 

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Wow that's interesting! I never even considered him. Thanks. 

I'm afraid I cannot claim the theory as my own, but I think this is the most plausible option. No-one could have expected the chalice to end up where it did, and only Butterbumps could go anywhere without suspicion.

[the Other Wolf]

On 1/28/2019 at 4:31 PM, Peach King said:

And he was near enough to the chalice to poison the wine:

What if it was the pie? 

Or something else all together?

When we start assuming we will usually go down the wrong path.

I am not sold on the wine or the pie at this point.

Until next time, Pie, pie. 

[Peach King]

Jesus 

[Stormking902]

Ser Garlan is one of the most honorable men in all of Westeros to suggest he would use poison to kill a foe is a slap in the face lol. 

[Stuart Littlefinger]

If it is indeed the Tyrells with Joffrey as the target, 100% Olenna is the mastermind behind it but I highly doubt she physically did anything, she probably gets help from Littlefinger.

100% Mace was not involved because he is an oaf and probably genuinely believes Joffrey to be a good boy. Remember when LF goes to propose the match he talks up Joffrey to all the lords and Mace probably sucked it all up, while LF's men spread the stories of Joffrey's cruelty among the Tyrell men which is how Olenna and Margaery hear the rumours and go to Sansa for confirmation.

I'm 50/50 on Margaery being involved, they probably planned it after Sansa confirms the rumours.

I'd say I'm 75/25 on Garlan not being involved, for honour's sake my instinct says no but I find it strange he and his wife don't testify against Tyrion, nor does Tyrion think to name them witnesses despite being sat next to him the whole time and Garlan actually being nice. 

Probably 90/10 on Loras not being involved, he would probably disagree with it and regardless he's too young and headstrong to be trusted in such a scheme.

100% the cousins were not involved they're too young. 

[Makk]

20 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Ser Garlan is one of the most honorable men in all of Westeros to suggest he would use poison to kill a foe is a slap in the face lol. 

That's his image. He would hardly be the first character who has different thoughts to what he says. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

17 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

Except that he doesn't:

 

ASoS - Tyrion VIII:

Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily.

 

Joff is slicing the ceremonial pie, not the eating pie. Tyrion's (cooked) piece shows up in front of him immediately after this, before the doves have flown away.

 

 

Except that it didn't:

 

ASoS - Tyrion VIII:

 

"It's, kof, the pie, noth—kof, pie." Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. "I, kof, I can't, kof kof kof kof . . . " The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's the pie. There was a ton of time between when Joff left the chalice on the table to when he got back. Anyone in the vicinity could have poisoned the wine while attention was elsewhere. Olenna simply retrieved the poison, she didn't have to administer it.

Personally, I believe that it was Ser Pounce that poisoned the wine. Think about it:

Who would everyone suspect the least? Tommen.

Who stood to gain the most from Joff's removal? Tommen.

Who gained the crown and the girl? Tommen.

Who would the Tyrells rather have Margaery marry? Tommen.

Who was sly and surreptitious enough to be named only once during the entire feast? Tommen. Squealing in delight at jousting dwarves, phooey! Everyone knows he likes Tyrion. That act didn't fool anyone!

Yeah, Ser Pounce just padded in all nice and quiet-like, did the deed, and got out like a real pro, silent as a cat. The purrrfect operative.

ETA: And he'll never talk because the cat's got his tongue!

I don't have my books with me, but looking online, several sources all say the same as I said, that the description of the wine changes from red to purple.  Perhaps you simply looked in the wrong spot.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

30 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't have my books with me, but looking online, several sources all say the same as I said, that the description of the wine changes from red to purple.  Perhaps you simply looked in the wrong spot.

 

 

I believe you are thinking of the ACoK prologue for that particular description.

The wrong spot? The chapter where the poisoning happened? The chapter I quoted, which you just re-quoted? If the books themselves are the wrong spot to find he truth of the text then I guess I'm just going to tap out on this one again. I gave my full opinion on this subject on the last twenty miles of bad road in this topic:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/151683-the-great-purple-wedding-irony-tyrion-sabotaged-his-own-trial/

 

[Clegane'sPup]

The color of the wine changes multiple times.

Probably doesn't matter much in the long run. Also probably doesn't matter that the chalice was three feet tall and took two hands to lift it.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII     Tyrion turned in his seat. Joffrey was almost upon him, red-faced and staggering, wine slopping over the rim of the great golden wedding chalice he carried in both hands. "Your Grace," was all he had time to say before the king upended the chalice over his head. The wine washed down over his face in a red torrent.         The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us."     the chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais.       there was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor.

The wine starts out red, then it is purple, then it is red and then it is purple.

Would be a little mundane discrepancy if martin didn't try so hard to bamboozle his readers. 

 

[chrisdaw]

What isn't a mundane discrepancy, but clearly very deliberate, is that Tyrion tipped the wine on the floor.

[Clegane'sPup]

Another little sticky point is the hairnet given to Sansa by Dontos via LF.

As much as that hairnet was rearranged the purple sparkles would all need to be strangler. That would make Sansa's hair net verra spensive.

But the woods witch had a dream. In her dream "I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs."

Doesn't matter much about the wine or the sparkles because 13 year old King Joffrey died at his wedding feast. That was book three.

I have read book five and now waiting for book six.

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

52 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The wine starts out red, then it is purple, then it is red and then it is purple.

 

I'm an idiot for jumping back into this, but...

It's a large feast. Over seventy courses. I'm pretty sure there was more than one cask of wine opened. Even wine from the same region and the same type will have differing characteristics in color, flavor, etc.

But...

The wine dumped onto Tyrion is red and is described as dark arbor red when it is poured into the chalice. The color of the wine that Joff replaced it with is not noted. A small amount on his chin is described as purple, but dark red against the skin could take that hue since the light isn't moving through much of the medium at that point. Later, a decent quantity is spilled and described as dark red and then the dregs are described as deep purple. Since we don't even know if the wine has been decanted, having the last portion look darker isn't out of the realm of possibility, so I don't give the wine color too much credence.

Lastly, we know that Joff took one swig of the new wine when it was poured and it was fine. This is the sticking point for the pie people. Either the wine or the pie had to be poisoned because all of the action took place near Tyrion. The pie people think Tyrion is the target because of the logistics of getting the poison in the wine and making sure Margaery doesn't drink it by accident, plus the fact that the chalice kept moving around too much and Olenna is too short and so on, and so on. The wine people think this is crazy and take the text as it is and LF explanation at face value.

The only comment I have on Olenna being too short is that she seemed plenty tall enough to be able to adjust Sansa's hairnet without needing a stepstool and there was no mention of Sansa stooping to accommodate her. Sansa is described as decently tall for a girl, no?

[divica]

5 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

I'm an idiot for jumping back into this, but...

It's a large feast. Over seventy courses. I'm pretty sure there was more than one cask of wine opened. Even wine from the same region and the same type will have differing characteristics in color, flavor, etc.

But...

The wine dumped onto Tyrion is red and is described as dark arbor red when it is poured into the chalice. The color of the wine that Joff replaced it with is not noted. A small amount on his chin is described as purple, but dark red against the skin could take that hue since the light isn't moving through much of the medium at that point. Later, a decent quantity is spilled and described as dark red and then the dregs are described as deep purple. Since we don't even know if the wine has been decanted, having the last portion look darker isn't out of the realm of possibility, so I don't give the wine color too much credence.

Lastly, we know that Joff took one swig of the new wine when it was poured and it was fine. This is the sticking point for the pie people. Either the wine or the pie had to be poisoned because all of the action took place near Tyrion. The pie people think Tyrion is the target because of the logistics of getting the poison in the wine and making sure Margaery doesn't drink it by accident, plus the fact that the chalice kept moving around too much and Olenna is too short and so on, and so on. The wine people think this is crazy and take the text as it is and LF explanation at face value.

The only comment I have on Olenna being too short is that she seemed plenty tall enough to be able to adjust Sansa's hairnet without needing a stepstool and there was no mention of Sansa stooping to accommodate her. Sansa is described as decently tall for a girl, no?

A much better argument is that RED wine can have the color purple. Just because people call the wine red doesn t mean they are refering to its colour but the type of wine. So the red wine that joffrey is drinking might have always been purple! It is just called red wine not because of its color but because the type of wine.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

I'm an idiot for jumping back into this, but...

No, you're not a idiot.

1 hour ago, divica said:

A much better argument is that RED wine can have the color purple. Just because people call the wine red doesn t mean they are refering to its colour but the type of wine. So the red wine that joffrey is drinking might have always been purple! It is just called red wine not because of its color but because the type of wine.

Neither is @divica

Martin merely seems to like words and their implications. Such as interchangeably using white walker & Other or free folk & wildling.

Me on the other hand, I might be dumb as a stump.

Edit: If Sansa's hairnet contained the poison how did whomever know which serpent to pick?