Peach King Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 Marg could have been given special signals to know when the wine is poisoned. Or even a special antidote to protect her from the effects of the strangler. And I don't buy that the strangler would dissolve in "pie filling" or whatever. It would be viscous and thick and there's a reason the prologue shows the strangler dissolving in wine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said: No, you're not a idiot. Neither is @divica Martin merely seems to like words and their implications. Such as interchangeably using white walker & Other or free folk & wildling. Me on the other hand, I might be dumb as a stump. Edit: If Sansa's hairnet contained the poison how did whomever know which serpent to pick? I doubt it. From what I've seen you do have a good dash of wisdom, though, which is probably better in the long run anyway. I always assumed that Dontos and Olenna (or her agent) had an off page meeting and all of the particulars were discussed and finalized. Of course, Olenna had no idea LF was lurking off shore ready to spirit Sansa away, but she's hardly in a position to say anything. Besides, laying blame didn't seem to be the main intention, rather avoiding blame was. The pie people are right in saying that there was no way of knowing where the chalice would be or that it would spend so much time near Tyrion unattended by Joff. The poisoners also had no way of knowing that Cersei would blame Tyrion right off the bat. They could have bet on it or hoped for it, but it wasn't assured. Except for the dwarf joust, the whole series of events was very circumstantially convenient for framing Tyrion. The joust could be expected to incense Tyrion, but without all of the other chance happenings everyone but Cersei would be hard pressed to look right at Tyrion and say he did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 14 minutes ago, Peach King said: Marg could have been given special signals to know when the wine is poisoned. Or even a special antidote to protect her from the effects of the strangler. And I don't buy that the strangler would dissolve in "pie filling" or whatever. It would be viscous and thick and there's a reason the prologue shows the strangler dissolving in wine. Maybe she slowly built up a resistance to iocane powder... (I had a cool YouTube link, but linkys seem broken or disabled right now) If you read that thread I linked before. @Ygrain and I had a pretty good discussion about the type of poison the strangler is and why it acts like it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 12 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said: The color of the wine changes multiple times. Probably doesn't matter much in the long run. Also probably doesn't matter that the chalice was three feet tall and took two hands to lift it. A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII Tyrion turned in his seat. Joffrey was almost upon him, red-faced and staggering, wine slopping over the rim of the great golden wedding chalice he carried in both hands. "Your Grace," was all he had time to say before the king upended the chalice over his head. The wine washed down over his face in a red torrent. The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us." the chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais. there was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor. The wine starts out red, then it is purple, then it is red and then it is purple. Would be a little mundane discrepancy if martin didn't try so hard to bamboozle his readers. Thank you 12 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said: I believe you are thinking of the ACoK prologue for that particular description. The wrong spot? The chapter where the poisoning happened? The chapter I quoted, which you just re-quoted? If the books themselves are the wrong spot to find he truth of the text then I guess I'm just going to tap out on this one again. I gave my full opinion on this subject on the last twenty miles of bad road in this topic: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/151683-the-great-purple-wedding-irony-tyrion-sabotaged-his-own-trial/ Apparently you didn't even look in the chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 47 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: Apparently you didn't even look in the chapter. Umm, yeah, that's it. Buh-bye now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Other Wolf Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 10 hours ago, Peach King said: Or even a special antidote to protect her from the effects of the strangler. If the Terrell's were involved this would have to be true no matter where the poison was placed. Olenna would not risk killing Margaery. If in the wine they were sharing. If in the PIE Joff could have shared a bit with Margaery like some do today when you cut the first piece of wedding cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 12 hours ago, divica said: A much better argument is that RED wine can have the color purple. Just because people call the wine red doesn t mean they are refering to its colour but the type of wine. So the red wine that joffrey is drinking might have always been purple! It is just called red wine not because of its color but because the type of wine. Indeed. The colour scale of red wines has quite a couple of shades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 11 hours ago, Peach King said: Marg could have been given special signals to know when the wine is poisoned. Such as referring to the Red Wedding by mentioning Rains of Castamere. Which Olenna actually does... If I ever get to ask GRRM a question, I would very much want to know if I'm right. 11 hours ago, Peach King said: And I don't buy that the strangler would dissolve in "pie filling" or whatever. It would be viscous and thick and there's a reason the prologue shows the strangler dissolving in wine. Neither do I, for the same reasons. Plus, dissolving it in anything that is not purple would cause a very revealing and suspicious stain. Now, if the sauce was blueberry or blackberry, it might work, but I yet have to see purple lemons or meat. 11 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said: The pie people are right in saying that there was no way of knowing where the chalice would be or that it would spend so much time near Tyrion unattended by Joff. The poisoners also had no way of knowing that Cersei would blame Tyrion right off the bat. They could have bet on it or hoped for it, but it wasn't assured. Except for the dwarf joust, the whole series of events was very circumstantially convenient for framing Tyrion. The joust could be expected to incense Tyrion, but without all of the other chance happenings everyone but Cersei would be hard pressed to look right at Tyrion and say he did it. Per GRRM, they hoped it would look like accidental choking (based on the death of Eustace of England). There is also one thing that fully could have been expected: that the chalice would remain unattended during cutting the pie and everyone would be looking at Marge and Joff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 [mod] Folks, I would suggest taking the pie/no-pie discussion to another thread, please. Thank you. [/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 4 hours ago, the Other Wolf said: If the Terrell's were involved this would have to be true no matter where the poison was placed. Olenna would not risk killing Margaery. If in the wine they were sharing. If in the PIE Joff could have shared a bit with Margaery like some do today when you cut the first piece of wedding cake. Eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 3 hours ago, Ygrain said: There is also one thing that fully could have been expected: that the chalice would remain unattended during cutting the pie and everyone would be looking at Marge and Joff. This is why I believe it wasn't Marg that did it, because everyone's eyes would be on her the entire time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Other Wolf Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 50 minutes ago, Peach King said: Eh? What don't you understand? You said, 15 hours ago, Peach King said: Marg could have been given special signals to know when the wine is poisoned. Or even a special antidote to protect her from the effects of the strangler. I then said, 5 hours ago, the Other Wolf said: If the Terrell's were involved this would have to be true no matter where the poison was placed. Olenna would not risk killing Margaery. Meaning IF the Terrell's were behind the plot, Margaery would have to be in on the poisoning plot so as not to risk killing Margaery in the process. The vehicle of delivery for the poison would not matter because Margaery would be at risk if the poison was in the wine or the piece of food you do not want to discuss. Margaery would have had to be in on it if the Terrell's were involved. Therefore, she would have had to take an antidote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Other Wolf Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Peach King said: As I said in the OP. I was responding to your eh? So I was trying to be clearer. 1 hour ago, Peach King said: Not so, because why would Margaery eat Tyrion's p**? I have never claimed it to be the food you want unspoken. I am claiming we do not know the vehicle of delivery and to limit the possibilities will never lead to the truth. My point is no matter where the poison was placed Margeary was at risk. It takes seconds to KILL. She was right next to someone you HUG and KISS and share CUPS and ........ It was a wedding. Not to mention if one was using poison like that around someone they cared about they would warn them. Therefore, in on it. 1 hour ago, Peach King said: Or she could have been told not to take sips after a certain amount of time has passed, or after a certain signal Therefore, in on it. Am I supposed to believe the Granddaughter of the Queen of Thornes is too stupid to know what that implies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 9 hours ago, the Other Wolf said: Am I supposed to believe the Granddaughter of the Queen of Thornes is too stupid to know what that implies? Certainly not. It totally baffles Sansa that Margaery seems to ignore Joffrey's sadism and seemingly relies on Loras' protection, even though that would cause one hell of a trouble for her family - well, if Margaery knows that Joff will soon be a non-issue, it explains quite a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 Hey how likely is it that the Kettleblacks did it???? (Not likely at all but this seems like a fun discussion). They were Littlefinger's men and were present at the wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Other Wolf Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 On 1/30/2019 at 10:17 PM, Peach King said: Marg could have been given special signals to know when the wine is poisoned. Didn't Margaery purposefully call Joffrey away from Tyrion in order to share a toast with her? Why do this if she has received "the signal" that the wine has been poisoned or knew that it would be happening? Also, how is she supposed to avoid drinking from the chalice during the time it takes for the poison to activate? Even if Joffrey does drink first, violating one of the primary rules of chivalry, what is she supposed to do for all that time, only to have the King suddenly drop dead at her feet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, the Other Wolf said: Didn't Margaery purposefully call Joffrey away from Tyrion in order to share a toast with her? Why do this if she has received "the signal" that the wine has been poisoned or knew that it would be happening? Also, how is she supposed to avoid drinking from the chalice during the time it takes for the poison to activate? Even if Joffrey does drink first, violating one of the primary rules of chivalry, what is she supposed to do for all that time, only to have the King suddenly drop dead at her feet? Yeah ill get back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 34 minutes ago, the Other Wolf said: Didn't Margaery purposefully call Joffrey away from Tyrion in order to share a toast with her? Why do this if she has received "the signal" that the wine has been poisoned or knew that it would be happening? Also, how is she supposed to avoid drinking from the chalice during the time it takes for the poison to activate? Even if Joffrey does drink first, violating one of the primary rules of chivalry, what is she supposed to do for all that time, only to have the King suddenly drop dead at her feet? It was Lord Buckler that wanted to toast the couple so that Margaery was trying to pull Joff away. It was right after he took the fatal gulp, but before cramming the pie in his face: The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us." "My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." ... pie cramming commences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Other Wolf Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 56 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said: "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us." Right, therefore that is a huge risk to Margaery. What if instead of cramming the unspoken food Joffery hands the chalice to Margaery and says drink? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 28 minutes ago, the Other Wolf said: Right, therefore that is a huge risk to Margaery. What if instead of cramming the unspoken food Joffery hands the chalice to Margaery and says drink? Mmm, hmm. Now you know why there is a wine camp and a "food forbidden to be named in this thread" camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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