the Other Wolf Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 34 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said: Now you know why there is a wine camp and a "food forbidden to be named in this thread" camp. Um, pretty sure my posts make clear I am aware of this. I only became the OPs nemesis because they (gender neutral) threw a tantrum about the unspoken food that everybody loves. That and I love poking the bear, especially if it's fan f@$k!ng fiction (not that this is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 On 2/2/2019 at 2:04 AM, the Other Wolf said: Didn't Margaery purposefully call Joffrey away from Tyrion in order to share a toast with her? Why do this if she has received "the signal" that the wine has been poisoned or knew that it would be happening? Also, how is she supposed to avoid drinking from the chalice during the time it takes for the poison to activate? Even if Joffrey does drink first, violating one of the primary rules of chivalry, what is she supposed to do for all that time, only to have the King suddenly drop dead at her feet? On 2/2/2019 at 3:38 AM, the Other Wolf said: Right, therefore that is a huge risk to Margaery. What if instead of cramming the unspoken food Joffery hands the chalice to Margaery and says drink? Joffrey had already drank the wine when Margaery tried to pull him away. Its said nowhere that the strangler needs a lot of time to activate. Cressen immediately hands the drink to Melisandre after poisoning it. Quote Ser Davos‟s cup was before him, still half-full of sour red. He found a hard flake of crystal in his sleeve, held it tight between thumb and forefinger as he reached for the cup. Smooth motions, deft, I must not fumble now, he prayed, and the gods were kind. In the blink of an eye, his fingers were empty. His hands had not been so steady for years, nor half so fluid. Davos saw, but no one else, he was certain. Cup in hand, he rose to his feet. “Mayhaps I have been a fool. Lady Melisandre, will you share a cup of wine with me? A cup in honor of your god, your Lord of Light? A cup to toast his power?” The poisons works very fast so it's not as if Margaery would be standing around idle for any long period of time. Quote His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. “He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.” At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly. Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck. As he sank to his knees, still he shook his head, denying her, denying her power, denying her magic, denying her god. Margaery was probably banking on him dropping dead immediately. Even if Joff told her to drink Margaery simply says "No u first, my king" very simple :-) And I wasn't throwing a tantrum, I just didn't want this thread to be sucked into the black hole of "It was the wine" "No, it was the pie" series of postings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 On 1/31/2019 at 6:49 AM, Ygrain said: Per GRRM, they hoped it would look like accidental choking (based on the death of Eustace of England). Can you (or anyone, please) provide a source for this? If true, it might make this bit a little more insightful as to who was in on it: ASoS - Tyrion VIII: Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, "He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw." This means one of two things to me: 1) Margaery's parents (or at least her mother) were in on the plan and were willing to have their daughter emotionally savaged a second time thinking that she is somehow cursed and responsible for her two husband's untimely deaths and are pushing the agenda forward or 2) Since the entire plan hinges on Joff appearing to choke on his pie (because who the hell chokes on wine?) and it would require near perfect timing to execute properly, Margaery did it in conjunction with Olenna and is the Meryl Streep of Westeros. On 1/31/2019 at 6:49 AM, Ygrain said: There is also one thing that fully could have been expected: that the chalice would remain unattended during cutting the pie and everyone would be looking at Marge and Joff. But this plan is predicated on the assumption that the chalice will be near the royal seats at the banquet, one would think, so that sort of eliminates anyone in the immediate vicinity of Tyrion since that was by all accounts an unplanned stop. Tyrion's eyes were conveniently still stinging from the wine all through the cutting ceremony, so our POV was distorted for that event. This brings us back to Margaery and Olenna. They are the only ones near the wine after Joff takes his first draught and goes to cut the pie and Olenna is the only one that we know for sure was in on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 On 2/10/2019 at 2:38 PM, Three-Fingered Pete said: Can you (or anyone, please) provide a source for this? If true, it might make this bit a little more insightful as to who was in on it: It should be somewhere in the SSMs, it's an old quote. On 2/10/2019 at 2:38 PM, Three-Fingered Pete said: 2) Since the entire plan hinges on Joff appearing to choke on his pie (because who the hell chokes on wine?) and it would require near perfect timing to execute properly, Margaery did it in conjunction with Olenna and is the Meryl Streep of Westeros. The look that Olenna and Marge exchange when Sansa tells them the truth about Joff, IMHO, hints that the two work together. On 2/10/2019 at 2:38 PM, Three-Fingered Pete said: But this plan is predicated on the assumption that the chalice will be near the royal seats at the banquet, one would think, so that sort of eliminates anyone in the immediate vicinity of Tyrion since that was by all accounts an unplanned stop. Tyrion's eyes were conveniently still stinging from the wine all through the cutting ceremony, so our POV was distorted for that event. This brings us back to Margaery and Olenna. They are the only ones near the wine after Joff takes his first draught and goes to cut the pie and Olenna is the only one that we know for sure was in on it. Which is why Butterbumps as Olenna's accomplice is such a hot candidate - can move freely around and absolutely no-one pays any attention to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 32 minutes ago, Ygrain said: Which is why Butterbumps as Olenna's accomplice is such a hot candidate - can move freely around and absolutely no-one pays any attention to him. Yes, but Butterbumps wasn't once mentioned as on the dais or even near it IIRC. GRRM would have at least done that IMO. Also, I would expect to have him found "accidentally" dead afterward to cover Olenna's tracks. Who would trust a fool not to wag his tongue. LF certainly didn't, hence, Dontos sleeps with the fishes. I'm sticking with Ser Pounce! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said: Yes, but Butterbumps wasn't once mentioned as on the dais or even near it IIRC. GRRM would have at least done that IMO. Also, I would expect to have him found "accidentally" dead afterward to cover Olenna's tracks. Who would trust a fool not to wag his tongue. LF certainly didn't, hence, Dontos sleeps with the fishes. He is mentioned as moving about the hall. Also, with his skill, he may not even have to drop the poison inthe chalice but toss it from a small distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 22 hours ago, Ygrain said: He is mentioned as moving about the hall. Also, with his skill, he may not even have to drop the poison inthe chalice but toss it from a small distance. I tried to push Olenna's three pointer record and her awesome skyhook in the Westerosi under five foot women's basketball league, but no one bought it. I'll concede that Butterbumps is a better candidate for a long shot, but it is still putting a lot of hope into luck. What if he misses and someone picks up the purple crystal? Now, we do get one mention of him at the feast, but it was very generalized and in tandem with Moonboy's actions. It seems a little thin for a GRRM clue drop to me: ASoS- Tyrion VIII: Thereafter dishes and diversions succeeded one another in a staggering profusion, buoyed along upon a flood of wine and ale. Hamish left them, his place taken by a smallish elderly bear who danced clumsily to pipe and drum while the wedding guests ate trout cooked in a crust of crushed almonds. Moon Boy mounted his stilts and strode around the tables in pursuit of Lord Tyrell's ludicrously fat fool Butterbumps, and the lords and ladies sampled roast herons and cheese-and-onion pies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Garlan put the poison into the chalice. It stood right next to him, meaning he had no reason whatsoever to move and thus possibly draw attention to himself. And him insidiously sucking up to Tyrion made it impossible for Tyrion to ever suspect him. The dwarf would never point the finger at a man of his integrity who actually publicly praised him for his intelligence and competence. Olenna herself is far too small to put something in the chalice, and her fool and guardsmen are way to conspicuous. They should trail behind her, not wander about the hall. Considering that the chalice was a wedding gift of Mace Tyrell it is obvious that the poisoning was planned very detailed and long in advance. They knew the prop to use for the poison because they provided it, and they knew where Garlan and Tyrion would sit. Lady Alerie seems to have been in on the plot, too, considering she was the one who kept to the script for 'plan A' when spread the story that they all saw that Joffrey choked on the pie. Mace likely was in on the plot, too, considering he pointed the finger aggressively at Tyrion afterwards, blaming him for nearly murdering his beloved daughter. The best way to distract from your own guilt is to blame others for what you did. Margaery obviously was informed, too, considering she had to be briefed to not accidentally drink from the poisoned chalice. Perhaps Loras was kept out of the loop, but he would have been the only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Three-Fingered Pete said: I tried to push Olenna's three pointer record and her awesome skyhook in the Westerosi under five foot women's basketball league, but no one bought it. I'll concede that Butterbumps is a better candidate for a long shot, but it is still putting a lot of hope into luck. What if he misses and someone picks up the purple crystal? Now, we do get one mention of him at the feast, but it was very generalized and in tandem with Moonboy's actions. It seems a little thin for a GRRM clue drop to me: ASoS- Tyrion VIII: Thereafter dishes and diversions succeeded one another in a staggering profusion, buoyed along upon a flood of wine and ale. Hamish left them, his place taken by a smallish elderly bear who danced clumsily to pipe and drum while the wedding guests ate trout cooked in a crust of crushed almonds. Moon Boy mounted his stilts and strode around the tables in pursuit of Lord Tyrell's ludicrously fat fool Butterbumps, and the lords and ladies sampled roast herons and cheese-and-onion pies. I'd say that a person able to juggle and do all kinds of trick must have a very good eye-hand coordination. If he misses and the crystal is found, it would probably be mistaken for a lost gemstone. You're right that there's not much pointing towards Butterbumps at the feast itself, but there is one potential hint at an earlier scene when Olenna and Marge interrogate Sansa: Butterbumps' song is used as a coverup so that no-one can overhear them. It might be argued that Olenna has already used him as a part of her scheming once, and as a fool to whom no-one pays attention, he is perfect as a catspaw. - But, it's just a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 On 2/10/2019 at 11:38 AM, Three-Fingered Pete said: Can you (or anyone, please) provide a source for this? If true, it might make this bit a little more insightful as to who was in on it: I think the idea with Joffrey’s death was to make it look like an accident — someone’s out celebrating, they haven’t invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it’s very serious. I based it a little on the death of Eustace, the son of King Stephen of England. Stephen had usurped the crown from his cousin, the empress Maude, and they fought a long civil war and the anarchy and the war would be passed down to second generation, because Maude had a son and Henry and Stephen had a son. But Eustace choked to death at a feast. People are still debating a thousand of years later: Did he choke to death or was he poisoned? Because by removing Eustace, it brought about a peace that ended the English civil war. Eustace’s death was accepted [as accidental], and I think that’s what the murderers here were hoping for — the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something. But what they didn’t count on, was Cersei’s immediate assumption that this was murder. Cersei wasn’t fooled by this for a second. She doesn’t believe that it was an accidental death. You saw the scene filmed, does it come across as he could possibly be just choking or is it very clear he’s been poisoned? link here https://ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 I completely forget about Alerie Hightower! Of course, she must have been on it too, since she tried to pass it off as Joff choking on his pie. As to Butterbumps being the culprit, this line from The Princess and the Queen might be a hint of sorts in that direction: Quote "Drunks they may be, but a drunken man knows not fear. Fools, aye, but a fool can kill a king. Rats, that too, but a thousand rats can bring down a bear. I saw it happen once, down there in Flea Bottom.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 7 hours ago, Ygrain said: You're right that there's not much pointing towards Butterbumps at the feast itself, but there is one potential hint at an earlier scene when Olenna and Marge interrogate Sansa: Butterbumps' song is used as a coverup so that no-one can overhear them. It might be argued that Olenna has already used him as a part of her scheming once, and as a fool to whom no-one pays attention, he is perfect as a catspaw. - But, it's just a theory. It's not a bad one since our list of suspects is short; especially if part of the plan was to keep the rest of the family in a state of plausible deniability. I forget, is Butterbumps an actual moron or is he a mummer's fool? How old is he anyway. Now you got me going all soap opera and thinking ol' "Butterbumps" () might be Olenna's secret love child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said: It's not a bad one since our list of suspects is short; especially if part of the plan was to keep the rest of the family in a state of plausible deniability. I forget, is Butterbumps an actual moron or is he a mummer's fool? How old is he anyway. Now you got me going all soap opera and thinking ol' "Butterbumps" () might be Olenna's secret love child. Mummer's fool 100%. Like Patchface was before he drowned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 5 hours ago, Peach King said: I completely forget about Alerie Hightower! Of course, she must have been on it too, since she tried to pass it off as Joff choking on his pie. That may have been simply a logical conclusion - Joff ate pie, started to cough and choke, a piece of the pie must have got caught in his windpipe, no rocket science. - But she may have been in on it, true. The Tyrell ladies are a closely knit bunch and the idea of Tyrell ladies' conspiracy does have a certain appeal :-) 5 hours ago, Peach King said: As to Butterbumps being the culprit, this line from The Princess and the Queen might be a hint of sorts in that direction: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Butterbumps is nonsense because nobody even mentions him as walking around or being even remotely in the region of the chalice. If being at the wedding and performing is enough to be a suspect we could arbitrarily suspect everyone. Garlan sat right next to the chalice when they were cutting the pie. He did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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