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kissdbyfire

For the record... and posterity!

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Many old discussions are being discussed again lately (yeah, I know, we do need Winds) Very cleverly at times, and not so much at other, less frequent times (tks the OG and the new). :D

It made me think it would be good to have a record of where people stand on these issues... Jon's parentage; Tyrion's Targness; is the paste Bran consumes partially made of crannogman; who wrote the PL; where is the house w/ the red door and the lemon tree, who is the Sailor's Wife... and more I can't recall at the mo.

I'll start w/ the above, and will edit and add suggestions that fit.

1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J

 2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen

4. Ramsay wrote the PL

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. 

 

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1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J
I accept it. I dunna like how martin wrote it.

 2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son
Tyrion is Tywin's son.

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen
Bran did not chow down on little Jojen.

4. Ramsay wrote the PL
Mind fuck --- I dunna know who wrote that thing.

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos
Braavos.

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion
I got nuttin'.

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV.
Agree with the statement.

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup
cheeky lil' girl ya be

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1. Jon's parentage: RLJ (whenever Ned mentions RL, "Jon" Snow or Arryn is found nearby on page. Not so when R or L are mentioned separately. Happens too many times to be chance. Don't buy either love or rape explanations, think it's something else, likely political at least in part. Don't like the story or characters in the least, so I'd like to be wrong. 

 2. Tyrion is a twin like Jaime and Cersei, and is a chimera of both Tywin's and Aerys' sons. Rich if you know the history of Tywin and Aerys. Not sure whose son ate whom. 

3. No opinion if Bran ate Jojen, but it makes sense to me. 

4. No real opinion on the PL, but I like Stannis writing it because it makes him more interesting. 

5. Red door/lemon tree = not what we've been led to believe.

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. He's too useful with his knowledge of Winterfell and as Balon's son.

 

Adding suggestions by others:

Aegon - we'll never know. Varys says power is where we believe it is. 

Rhaego - dead

Valonquar - the red lion Reynes are a little brother so to speak to big brother gold lion Lannisters. Maggy gave the "prophesy" and her family, the Spicer Westerlings, use the same name types as the Reynes which hints that the Spicer Westerlings married into the Reynes at some point. There was a Robb Reyne who is one of only 3 Robbs in the series and it's perhaps a hint that Robb married into the Reynes and the Rains of Castamere played at his death. Rolph Spicer just got Castamere. Gotta be some reason the Reynes and Castamere are given such a spotlight. 

Edited by Lollygag

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1. RLJ

2. Tywin is... wait for it.... not the father!

3. Jojen Paste

4. Ramsey wrote it

5. Braavos

6. Not sure 

7. Let him live

I'd like to add "does Dany have a super stomach?" Obviously I'm in the yes camp. What other explanation could there be? ;)

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

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1. Jon's parentage: irrelevant as that body is dead.

2.

3. Jojen's stew, the best kind of Singer's stew.

4. Stannis and Mance wrote the PL

5.

6.

7. Theon will be sacrificed and will rise again as a WW. He will get the sword he asked to the Old Gods.

Edited by Tucu

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1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J

Me too.

 2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son

Yes, I think he is who he is.

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen

I'm torn on this.

4. Ramsay wrote the PL

I've never given much thought to this, but I think it might have been someone on Stannis or on the Stark loyalists side.

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos

In Braavos.

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion

Fine by me. Not something I'm interested in.

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. 

For some reason I don't think Theon will die at all.

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1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J

100% on the RLJ train. Can't ignore all the hints for reasons.

 2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son

He's Tywin's son. 

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen

A firm no on this one.

4. Ramsay wrote the PL

I think Winterfell has fallen and Ramsay is in the wind.

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos

Braavos

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion

I don't care whose daughter she is. 

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. 

I don't think he will be. We weren't fed all that history about Torgon the Latecomer for this asshat to die.

8. Young Griff is the real Aegon Targaryen

Me: Yes he is.

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J

 2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen

4. Ramsay wrote the PL

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. 

  1. I'm also a firm believer of R+L=J, and will not be swayed otherwise. Unless of course it gets revealed not to be true in the next book.
  2. Tyrion is Tywin's son. I think that not being so would take away so much from his character. 
  3. I don't think Bran ate Jojen either. 
  4. I also think Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter, but I think it's a case of false information. 
  5. Red Door plus the Lemon Tree are in Braavos.
  6. I'm really not sure on that one. I don't really think it matters, but if I had to pick between Tyrion or Gerion being the father, I'd go with Gerion. 
  7. Nah, I could see Theon surviving for a while yet. 

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J

 2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen

4. Ramsay wrote the PL

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. 

1. Well, I was firmly on board, but @Sly Wren has really got me to reconsider and I'm veering more towards A+L=J with R+A=D

2. Pure Lanni or possibly Lanni/Targ chimera, but not Aerys' alone....

3. Never liked Jojen paste (but that don't mean it ain't true)

4. Ramsay may have started the PL, but someone else finished it - there's too much emphasis in the story of the wax being a 'smudge'. It's been intercepted and tampered with at the very least, maybe even a downright forgery... if so -  Stannis or someone at Castle Black????

5. Red door - George had a brain fart, not worth obsessing over.

6. Yes. Gerion and Sailor's Wife, again maybe some timing issues down to the 5yr shift, bit of a brain fart again.

7. I'll reserve judgment cause I can't think what CV means right now.... :dunce:

8. Following @Alexis-something-Rose : yeah, I'll buy it for now, but maybe only 75% certainty

9. RHAEGO IS DEAD DEAD DEAD!

10. Frey House Words: "A Bridge, cos even trolls need somewhere to live"

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1 I agree

2 storywise I just can t see him not being tywin's son. 

3 I think it would be awesome if bran eats all of his companions. it isn t like they can leave the cave anyway...

4 either ramsay or roose wrote it. It is the only thing that makes sense

5 not realy care about it

6 too early to tell, but it might be interesting seing tyrion trying to be a dad

7 It is just a grrm thing to make a character important for an arc that the fans are sure will happen and then kill the character (ned, robb…). I think the set up for theon anuling the kingsmoot is a strong indication that he will die (besides the IB are getting too infamous for a new kingsmoot to stop the war between them and the IT)

8 Grrm has spent so much time creating the blackfyre rebelions and they even present in dunk and egg. I just can t see a blackfyre not apearing… Aegon is a fake =(

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Since George told us some years ago that the only TWoW chapter aside from the Prologue and the sample chapters we have already read/heard about is a Theon chapter (he let it slip that he was working on a Theon chapter right now) we can, I think, be reasonably sure that the man does not die at the tree on the island.

We can assume that George is going to alternate between Theon and Asha chapters when covering the Stannis plot, meaning that chances are reasonably high that Theon 1 is going to be followed by Asha 1, and Asha 1 is going to cover this 'sacrifice thing' on the island rather than Theon 2 (which then is likely going to cover the first part of the battle.

In addition, this also raised the chances that there will be multiple Theon chapters in TWoW, meaning that Theon is likely not going to die near or at Winterfell.

Edited by Lord Varys

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Many old discussions are being discussed again lately (yeah, I know, we do need Winds) Very cleverly at times, and not so much at other, less frequent times (tks the OG and the new). :D

It made me think it would be good to have a record of where people stand on these issues... Jon's parentage; Tyrion's Targness; is the paste Bran consumes partially made of crannogman; who wrote the PL; where is the house w/ the red door and the lemon tree, who is the Sailor's Wife... and more I can't recall at the mo.

I'll start w/ the above, and will edit and add suggestions that fit.

1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J

 2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen

4. Ramsay wrote the PL

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. 

 

Well, I will give it a go...

1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J - I am an RLJ'r, even though if it was revealed in-story that Jon is somehow half Dayne instead, I wouldn't be surprised... but I AM a total RLJ'r. 

 2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son - I don't know why but I have always detested the Tyrion is a secret Targ idea. I think there are a lot of clues in the series that point to Tyrion being involved with dragons in various ways, but not necessarily a Targ himself. I guess my order of things would be #1- all of Tywin's children are his own; #2- Jaime and Cersei are the Mad King's children; #3- way way waaayyy down the line is the Tyrion Targ idea. If Martin reveals Tyrion to be a Targ, so be it. 

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen - In the past, I have often played with the idea that Bran did eat Jojen paste. I can see why it would fit the parallels in the story- singer's stew, dragons consume children; but are "ice dragons" and fire dragons the same? Too many questions for this post here. However, after reading so many other stories written by the same author, I can see how this could be a red teaser fish like the Tyrion is a Targ idea. So, I guess my answer is no.

4. Ramsay wrote the PL - Yes, Ramsay wrote the pink letter. Martin likes to have ASOIAF history repeat, but with a twist. What we are witnessing on page between the Starks and Boltons is a historic twist of the Red Kings and Starks of olden days. I think the Boltons have been trying to infiltrate the Stark household to usurp Winterfell since the story (basically) began. I will say, my back up answer that wouldn't surprise me is that Stannis wrote the letter, but I am a total Ramsay'r here.

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos - Braavos. For a number of reasons, the author moved the story there, and these reasons probably have to do with the future events of the story and how in the meantime he transplanted other characters there. At some point these story lines are going to have to converge ;) to bring us to a full conclusion. That said, I think the red door is Dany's "Jenny of Oldstones", or just "Jenny" as GRRM has used before. Something that you remember a certain way when you were younger, and in adulthood you crave it, but in the end it is an unattainable reality. Like Petyr and Catelyn, and Tyrion and Tysha, and probably some other sap I can't think of at the moment.

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion - Ack! I don't know about this one. I want to say no, but I have no firm opinion either way. If I had to guess, and if the timeline adds up???, I would say Lanna is the daughter of Tyrion.

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. - NO. I mean yes. I mean NO, Theon will not be killed before the tree. Stannis is literally and spiritually stuck at a crossroads right now. He and Theon will probably both have some eye-opening experiences in front of the the tree at the CV ( Crofter's Village @Rufus Snow :)) So many lessons and character development moments in this story are all about the strong impact of choice.

-> 8. I agree with @Rufus Snow that Rhaego is DEAD DEAD DEAD!

-> 9. And @OtherFromAnotherMother is totes on key with Dany's stomach. It wasn't dragons that the SciFi aliens over Asshai dropped off in fantasy ASOIAF, it was probiotics.

Forgot one.

-> 10. Aegon, as in Young Griff, is really Aegon the son of Elia and Rhaegar. Yeah, this 100% fits Martin's writing style, and to me I don't think Martin does near as many fake-outs as some may think. I do think we will get a new "Blackfyre" battle, but it won't be as expected. Just another reason why my main mulch man, Bloodraven, has lasted so long. He has to pass his dentures, err, "teeth" on to Bran in preps for what happens after the battle.

Edited by The Fattest Leech
Damn quoter/edit going bonkers!

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1. R+L=J

2. Tyrion is a Targ (75% confidence)

3. Bran ate wierwood paste with Jojen's blood mixed in

4. Ramsey wrote the PL

5. The red door and lemon tree were in Braavos

6. Lanna is Gerion's daughter (this one is the impression I have, hazy on the details as to why right now)

7. Theon will live. He has a Kingsmoot to attend.

also ...

Aegon is a Blackfyre (or at least definitely fake) 

Jaime is the valonqar

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1. Jon's parentage: I think Arthur and Lyanna are most likely his parents. Though fingers crossed that Ned and "some woman" will be his parents.

  • 1.A: I think Rhaegar and Ashara are likely to be Dany's parents.

2. Really think Tyrion is Tywin's son.

3. Seems unlikely that Bran ate Jojen--that paste seems like it wouldn't need human sacrifice.

4. @Rufus Snow's point about someone at Castle Black writing the letter is intriguing. I haven't ever been able to pin the "Pink Letter" thing down.

5. Red Door Lemon Tree: most likely in Dorne.

6. Lanna: yes, likely to be Gerion's daughter.

7. Theon's not dying yet. 

8. Rhaego is dead. Done.

9. Am loving the superstomach theory--would need one to house her sleeping dragon until it woke. 

10. Aegon seems likely to be real--and I think Dany will end up killing him. And then she will likely die of greyscale caught somehow from JonCon.

Edited by Sly Wren
I can't spell.

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1.  Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

2.  Tyrion is the son of Tywin.

3.  Bran did not eat Jojen, although I doubt that Jojen leaves the cave alive.

4.   The PL was written by Ramsay, but others (Mance, Castle Black) could have had input.

5.  House with the Red Door is probably in Dorne.  Too many mentions of lemons coming from Dorne for my comfort.  I don't think it indicates any secret parentage for Dany, though.

6.  Lanna is Gerions's if she is anybody's.  Definitely not Tyrion's

7.  I doubt Theon dies at the Heart Tree, but I don't expect him to last too much longer.

Daenerys is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaelle Targaryen.

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1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J

Agreed.

 2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son

Agreed.

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen

Agreed.

4. Ramsay wrote the PL

Agreed.

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos

Agreed.

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion

It doesnt really matter.

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. 

I used to believe that he would, but after reflection, he's still useful.

Perhaps he will be executed after Stannis takes Winterfell.

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1. R + L = J

2. Tywin + Joanna = Tyrion

3. Jojenpaste is... probable? 

4. I’ve forgot the alternate theories that are good at this point, but probably Ramsay. I think there was a good Barbrey theory, maybe? But probably Ramsay.

5. Yep

6. Gerion’s 

7. Will not die then

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10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Aegon - we'll never know. Varys says power is where we believe it is. 

Rhaego - dead

Valonquar - the red lion Reynes are a little brother so to speak to big brother gold lion Lannisters. Maggy gave the "prophesy" and her family, the Spicer Westerlings, use the same name types as the Reynes which hints that the Spicer Westerlings married into the Reynes at some point. There was a Robb Reyne who is one of only 3 Robbs in the series and it's perhaps a hint that Robb married into the Reynes and the Rains of Castamere played at his death. Rolph Spicer just got Castamere. Gotta be some reason the Reynes and Castamere are given such a spotlight.

8. Lean towards Aegon is Rhaegar and Elia’s, but can totally see the possibility of not learning the truth on this.

9. Dead, dead, dead, as dead as can be.

10. Really not sure on the valonquar. Lean towards Jaime, but definitely not sure.

10 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'd like to add "does Dany have a super stomach?" Obviously I'm in the yes camp. What other explanation could there be? ;)

Yes! :D

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Frey House Words: "A Bridge, cos even trolls need somewhere to live"

Perfect! :lol:

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1. Jon's parentage: R+L=legitimate J

 2. Tyrion is a dragonseed, from Aerys (and yes a Tywin / Aerys chimera is a possibility). He will ride Viserion, therefore AJT will never be explicitely said and it will be left to the readers to connect the dots.

3. Bran did eat Jojen. But again I don't think we will ever get any further confirmation other than something along the lines "Jojen has fulfilled his destiny" and the readers will have to make up their mind.

4. Mance wrote the PL. The handwriting and the wording are the clues. Maybe a secret code, maybe linked to a Northern Conspiracy to implement Robb's will (Jon likely the Heir).

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos, probably a leftover from an early Tyroshi draft

6. Lanna is more likely to be the daughter of Tyrion than Gerion , but again I don't think we will ever know for sure.

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. Don't know. But his redemption demands his consented sacrifice at some point. Or he will become the hooded man he saw in Winterfell (a priest?).

Edited by Jô Maltese

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12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J

 2. Tyrion is a Targ. The dragon dreams the white hair instead of gold and the eyes. Not too mention that his mother died giving birth to him just like John's mother and Danny's mother.

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen. 100%  on this one. Jogen is not dead i would bet my last groat on that.

4. Ramsay wrote the PL but someone read the letter before John did. That is why the pink wax was smeared.

5. Red door/lemon tree = Not Braavos probably Dorne but not certain on that.

6. Lanna may be the daughter of Tyrion not really sure on this one.

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. Agreed. Theon isnt going anywhere.

 

 

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