For the record... and posterity!

[Geddus]

On 2/2/2019 at 11:58 PM, kissdbyfire said:

For instance, TWoW Theon I happens before ADwD Jon XIII.

It's not the first time I read something like this and I have to ask: how do we know it?

[John Suburbs]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 12:23 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So what's CV again?

Lol, Curriculum Vitae. Theon will not die while applying for a job as a Chippendale's dancer.

Seriously, the only thing I can come up with is Clutch Victory. Stannis will eek out a win against the Freys, which Theon will survive.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

It's not the first time I read something like this and I have to ask: how do we know it?

Because George told us when he published Theon 1 on his website.

This doesn't mean it is actually true - he could have done that simply to make it clear that Theon 1 is not confirmation that the Pink Letter is full of lies and that Stannis did not die. After all, he did not want us to interpret Theon 1 as spoiler that Stannis did not die, since Theon did not exactly cover any of the coming battles.

But in relation to the time line it is entirely possible that the Pink Letter was written before Theon 1, i.e. shortly after Theon and Jeyne's escape from Winterfell.

As soon as Roose and Ramsay got a hold on either a living spearwife or Mance and broke them through torture they should have known everything about Jon Snow's involvement in the attempt to save 'Arya' and that in and of itself is all the background they need for the writing of the Pink Letter. All information about Stannis and his magic sword may just have been invented nonsense.

Although I guess Theon's journey to the village may have taken not as long as the torture of whoever they captured plus the raven's flight from Winterfell to the Wall. In that sense Jon may have indeed died after Theon 1, but perhaps not after the time of the actual battle at the lake and whatever happens thereafter.

[corbon]

12 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Ashara's lover - Ned Stark you doubt her family? Hmm 

You don't doubt a couple of children who were not born until after her death or who were babes at the time?

But anyway, did you pay any attention to what her family said?

They claim Ned and Ashara were "in love", yes. But they claim that Ned was actually sleeping with Wylla, not Ashara. Because they 'know' that Wylla is Jon's mother and Ned his father.
That's Ned, the overly-honourable, never-the-boy-you-were Ned that Robert was awed that some woman made him forget his honour once and bear him a bastard. In love with one woman and sleeping with another. 
And you question questioning this just because the children that think it, who never met Ned or Ashara, share some genes with Ashara?
 

[BalerionTheCat]

On 1/30/2019 at 11:10 PM, John Suburbs said:

7. Theon will get his junk back somehow and rule the Iron Islands. What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.

BTW, and for the record, I don't think Theon lost that. The threat of cutting something he doesn't need always made me fear of that. Ramsay is much more frightening while the threat exists. Of course, there are these words ""He has only taken toes and fingers and that other thing". Could be something else.

[divica]

1 minute ago, corbon said:

You don't doubt a couple of children who were not born until after her death or who were babes at the time? 

But anyway, did you pay any attention to what her family said?

They claim Ned and Ashara were "in love", yes. But they claim that Ned was actually sleeping with Wylla, not Ashara. Because they 'know' that Wylla is Jon's mother and Ned his father.
That's Ned, the overly-honourable, never-the-boy-you-were Ned that Robert was awed that some woman made him forget his honour once and bear him a bastard. In love with one woman and sleeping with another. 
And you question questioning this just because the children that think it, who never met Ned or Ashara, share some genes with Ashara?
  

To be honest. We don t know how much the older daynes know about what happened in the ToJ. If we assume they know everything because that was the first place ned visited or because arthur/rhaegar might have asked them for help because of lyanna's condition then the stories they tell their children about wylla are false and the elder daynes don t believe them.

However, everyone old enough talks about some sort of relation between ned and ashara...

[divica]

6 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

BTW, and for the record, I don't think Theon lost that. The threat of cutting something he doesn't need always made me fear of that. Ramsay is much more frightening while the threat exists. Of course, there are these words ""He has only taken toes and fingers and that other thing". Could be something else.

Wether he has cut it or not.

Have you read theon's description? He looks like and old man, he is feeble, he lost several fingers, he is traumatized...

Given what we know of the IB does it look like someone they would follow?

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

You don't doubt a couple of children who were not born until after her death or who were babes at the time?

But anyway, did you pay any attention to what her family said?

They claim Ned and Ashara were "in love", yes. But they claim that Ned was actually sleeping with Wylla, not Ashara. Because they 'know' that Wylla is Jon's mother and Ned his father.
That's Ned, the overly-honourable, never-the-boy-you-were Ned that Robert was awed that some woman made him forget his honour once and bear him a bastard. In love with one woman and sleeping with another. 
And you question questioning this just because the children that think it, who never met Ned or Ashara, share some genes with Ashara?
 

Ned Dayne may be a child but we have no current knowledge of age of Allyria although she may be younger. We also do not know if Wylla is a real person or an identity or the wetnurse of Jon was Wylla and she nursed both children. I do believe in Edric and Allyria and I think the story of Wylla is used to cover Ned and Ashara and not Jon's parentage when Ned and Arya interacts. But that's just me, I have no reason to make Ashara a flirty type of figure like majority of fandom when she could be as young as thirteen and likely sheltered since she lived in an island before being handmaid of Elia and would be guarded by both Elia and Arthur. I think Ashara would see Ned as a lover and a future husband that's why her heart will be broken if he ended up marrying Catelyn and using her servant to hide paternity of Jon - since majority believe in RLJ on the forums - not to mention the fact her brother was killed by the man she loved. Ned and Ashara isn't a threat to RLJ and this forum and fandom has to understand that. 

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

BTW, and for the record, I don't think Theon lost that. The threat of cutting something he doesn't need always made me fear of that. Ramsay is much more frightening while the threat exists. Of course, there are these words ""He has only taken toes and fingers and that other thing". Could be something else.

I think there are other references to it as well, but it's kind of off-topic so I'll leave it at that.

[corbon]

6 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Ned Dayne may be a child but we have no current knowledge of age of Allyria although she may be younger.

We know Allyria has been betrothed to Beric Dondarion for 5 years, but not yet wed. Thats a strong clue on her age being too low to have been around at the time of Harrenhal.

6 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

We also do not know if Wylla is a real person or an identity or the wetnurse of Jon was Wylla and she nursed both children.

Ned Dayne tells Arya outright that Wylla is Jon Snow's mother. 

Quote

"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

If you are going to believe him on one, not just believe him but question that anyone could doubt him, you have to believe him on the other.
And if you believe him on both, then you believe Ned Stark was fucking Wylla behind Ashara's back while they were in love.

6 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I do believe in Edric and Allyria and I think the story of Wylla is used to cover Ned and Ashara and not Jon's parentage when Ned and Arya interacts. But that's just me, I have no reason to make Ashara a flirty type of figure like majority of fandom when she could be as young as thirteen and likely sheltered since she lived in an island before being handmaid of Elia and would be guarded by both Elia and Arthur. 

So, Ashara, with her laughing purple eyes, danced with Oberyn Martell (in his mid twenties, already famous for duelling (killing with poisoned blades) Lord Yronwood after being found in bed with Yronwood's paramour) and Jon Connington (in his early twenties, a leading light amongst the Rhaegar faction at court) before wild-wolf, likes-a-bloody-sword, happy-to-take-a-noble-maiden's-maidenhood Brandon convinced her to dance with shy Ned sitting in the corner. Captures the heart of Barristan Selmy. Then she was disgraced from court over a supposed pregnancy. But there is no reason she's not a sheltered, shy little girl rather than a confident, bold young woman...

 

Anyway, we are slipping off topic here. If you want to discuss further, I suggest a different thread or PM.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, divica said:

Given what we know of the IB does it look like someone they would follow?

I didn't say they would follow him. Except ... Their Old Way will have to change if they want to have a place in what I believe will be a better world.

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

We know Allyria has been betrothed to Beric Dondarion for 5 years, but not yet wed. Thats a strong clue on her age being too low to have been around at the time of Harrenhal.

Ned Dayne tells Arya outright that Wylla is Jon Snow's mother. 

If you are going to believe him on one, not just believe him but question that anyone could doubt him, you have to believe him on the other.
And if you believe him on both, then you believe Ned Stark was fucking Wylla behind Ashara's back while they were in love.

So, Ashara, with her laughing purple eyes, danced with Oberyn Martell (in his mid twenties, already famous for duelling (killing with poisoned blades) Lord Yronwood after being found in bed with Yronwood's paramour) and Jon Connington (in his early twenties, a leading light amongst the Rhaegar faction at court) before wild-wolf, likes-a-bloody-sword, happy-to-take-a-noble-maiden's-maidenhood Brandon convinced her to dance with shy Ned sitting in the corner. Captures the heart of Barristan Selmy. Then she was disgraced from court over a supposed pregnancy. But there is no reason she's not a sheltered, shy little girl rather than a confident, bold young woman...

 

Anyway, we are slipping off topic here. If you want to discuss further, I suggest a different thread or PM.

Ugh no Oberyn was younger brother of Elia not thirty years old and since we know Elia and Oberyn visited Starfall and Oberyn said Dayne siblings weren't the main dish to be served so Oberyn wasn't a live interest for Ashara. Jon Connington is gay and not a love interest. Barristan is old enough to be father of Ashara, gross. There is a great chance Ashara first danced with Arthur. So Ned is the only love interest who also danced with Ashara. Wylla is mother of Jon but is she really a wetnurse employed by Daynes? Do we know if Wylla the wetnurse of Edric is alive and real or she is really a wetnurse? Ashara could be a confident young woman or a sheltered thirteen years old girl, her age is never specified and she could be between 13-22 most likely 17-18 like Eddard during HH. Her pregnancy and disgrace are rumors as well as if she had a son or daughter or if the babe died or not. We know nothing about her, saying Ned and Ashara had a thing for each other in their youth is not a crime damn. 

[divica]

4 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I didn't say they would follow him. Except ... Their Old Way will have to change if they want to have a place in what I believe will be a better world.

I agree with that and if euron makes them attack old town they are basically fucked… The south would unite against them...

The problem is that theon doesn t look to be the man for this job. I think it will be asha's role and that it will start with the northern IB integrating into the northern kingdom. I mean, with all the deaths and with the north making peace with the wildlings there are few reason to not make peace with the IB... And if theon isn t mentioned this peace becomes even easier...

[Back in Black-Snow]

On 1/31/2019 at 12:55 AM, WyldFyre said:

 

Mind blown!!!!!!!

Sorry, completely wordless! Never even thought of that but, I can see where it could definitely be. 

Tyrion is a manticore. He is a chimera of a dragon and a lion. And the son of Aerys and Tywin and Joanna. And he is a dwarf.

No wonder he starves for the attention\love of others, for he is a torn, wreched creature. We were slowly starting to learn this in Dance of Dragons.

 

Sorry to skip so far ahead and ignore most of the OP's post, and others.

[kissdbyfire]

12 hours ago, Geddus said:

It's not the first time I read something like this and I have to ask: how do we know it?

Martin talked about it, I think when he released TWoW Theon I but not sure. He said something along the lines of, “as you can probably tell, the chronology...” etc etc. I’ll try to find the quote. There are also a few good timelines out there that place it before not only Jon XIII, but also Jon XII and XI, iirc. 

Here it is, @Geddus.

The chronology, as usual, is tricky. This chapter will be found eventually at the beginning of WINDS, but as you will be able to tell from context, it actually takes place before some of the chapters at the end of DANCE).
 

[Geddus]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Martin talked about it, I think when he released TWoW Theon I but not sure. He said something along the lines of, “as you can probably tell, the chronology...” etc etc. I’ll try to find the quote. There are also a few good timelines out there that place it before not only Jon XIII, but also Jon XII and XI, iirc. 

Here it is, @Geddus.

The chronology, as usual, is tricky. This chapter will be found eventually at the beginning of WINDS, but as you will be able to tell from context, it actually takes place before some of the chapters at the end of DANCE).
 

There it is... thank you, I did not know GRRM himself said that.

Altho it seems strange, has Martin done that before? Meddling with timelines I mean, my impression is that chapters have always been placed in chronological order.

[Walda]

1. Jon's parentage  I think Jon is the legitimate son of Oberyn Martell and the Prince That Was Promised. Just based on his widow's peak, dark eyes, age, and unStarklike intelligence. Not sure if he ended up with his uncle Eddard or if the Starks took him on in some baby-swap to protect him from Targaryen rulers (including cousin Robert Baratheon) who would kill him for his kingsblood.

 2. Tyrion is a Targ  A+J=T

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen

4. the PL was written by I think Tywin had a communication system that relied on three maesters writing letters that purported to be from, say, Lady Walda at the Twins, but the hand it was written in would reveal that it came in fact from, say, Ramsey at the Dreadfort or Tywin in King's Landing,  or perhaps that the missive was to be relayed on to White Harbor or Winterfell, so it looked like it had been sent from the Riverlands.

Qyburn informs Roose of 'Lady Walda's' letter, prompting Roose to send Tallhart and Glover to Duskendale, but it is only after Arya sees a raven arrive from the Twins that they learn of King Robb's marriage and Elmer is told that he won't be marrying a princess after all, and they learn they are now Lannister loyalists. Roose was already comfortably aware that Tywin was in King's Landing and not inclined to undo them.

There can only be a certain number of birds at the Twins that know their way to Harrenhal, and at this point in the war, it is critical for Bolton to know what happened on the Blackwater, the intentions of Lord Manderley at Whiteharbor, the depredations of the Ironborn at Moat Calin, Deepwood Motte and Winterfell, the dispositions of the Dreadfort, Robb's actions in the Westerlands, Edmure's in the Riverlands, if Lysa will stir from the Eyrie, the current locations of Ser Gregor Clegane, Randolf Tarly, Mathis Rowan, the Redwyne fleet. It makes little sense to squander the limited number of birds available to transmit that intel on early morning love letters from Lady Bolton to her husband. If she must write to him, it would more naturally be in the post-script of a raven from Lord Walder packed with as much intel as his sons and commanders enable him to collate. 

So, I'm guessing the messages that Roose receives from Qyburn are not coming from any raven out of the Twins, and Tothmure, Lucan, Harra, and the head steward were killed because they could recognise people's marks on the paperwork that dictated how the internal bureaucracy of Harrenhal operated under Lord Tywin and Lady Whent. Arya knows that Lucan is illiterate, but Ser Lyonel Frey, second son of Lady Genna, sister to Lord Tywin Lannister, only knows that Lucan can recognise his mark, and the Freys are cowardly and cautious, which puts a target on any staff that know things like that Ser Lyonel was not really a prisoner, that his uncle armed him with a new sword, that he was an obvious channel of contact between the Freys and Lord Tywin.

Tywin brought three maesters to Harrenhal (ACoK, Ch.30 Arya VII), and when he comes to Kings Landing in the aftermath of the battle of Blackwater, there are three maesters to tend to Joffrey when he cuts his hand on the throne.(ACoK, Ch.65 Sansa VIII)

After Tywin dies, we learn that there are three maesters with Roose. In the same place (ADwD, Ch.37 The Prince of Winterfell) Coincidentally, Roose tells the northerners gathered to witness the wedding of fArya and Ramsey there are three military forces marching on Winterfell (Stannis and the clansmen from Deepwood Motte, Crowfood Umber from the North, the Karstarks from the East).

Theon knows Arnolf Karstark was only awaiting a signal from Roose Bolton to turn his cloak. Just as Roose was only awaiting a signal from Lord Tywin to turn his cloak when he was being leeched by Arya at Harrenhal. Qyburn delivered the message, but it seems to me he is more likely a conduit of information from the scouts and freeriders of Gregor Clegane via their former brothers in arms, the Brave Companions. If he was getting his intel from Lord Vargo's foraging parties, that would remove the need for a raven from the Twins, and I'm wondering how the maesters of Oldtown would behave if they knew Qyburn had taken over Tothmure's place at Harrenhal - Pycelle for one would not be inclined to communicate with him by choice. I'm guessing the other two hosts also have secret daggers that provide Roose with information, not all of which he chooses to share unadulterated with his banner lords.

I'm guessing Ramsey is illiterate, and his letters are dictated to amanuenses who could, if they chose, use his mark as easily as Arya contemplated using Ser Lyonel's. The pink letter was written by someone who could recognise Mance Raydar by sight, someone who doesn't believe Mance Raydar was burnt to death at the Wall by King Stannis. Someone with more recent knowledge of the Wall than Stannis, because they know that Selyse has stayed on at Castle Black not left for the Night Fort yet. They also know of Val and of Mance's son.

My guess is the clansmen, a Flint, Wull, Norrey or Liddle. That the letter was from someone near Castle Black, someone who wants a new Acting Lord Commander for Castle Black, because they don't want wildlings populating the gift. They have a mole in Winterfell, and they know who Mance is. Some of them have also met Ramsey and perhaps know him well enough to write in what they imagine is his style.

I think the mountain clans are also responsible for the three heads with the eyes cut out (done deliberately to implicate the Weeper and to entice Jon Snow to leave Castle Black and fight the Weeper), and they are also responsible for the face on the Drunkard, the Chestnut, and the Oak guarding the Kingsroad between Castle Black and Moles Town.  I don't know if they are in league with Roose, or his three maesters - perhaps the three maesters are only relevant to the PL in that it explains why Ramsey's hand writing changes.

5. Red door/lemon tree = Yeah, I don't know about this one. I agree that lemon trees seem to be a better match for Lys or Dorne than Braavos.

Then again, lemon trees are small and can grow in rocky ground and with brackish water, if they have a good micro-climate - say, a warm brick wall that radiates heat at the end of a sunny but cold day, and shelters it from cold winds and sleet and ice-storms.

On the Isle of the Gods, R'hllor's house might have a red wall as well as a red door, and braziers that kept it warm even in winter. The Sealord has a glass house.  Surrounded by water, both isles are less likely to have frosts, or at least less severe frosts than places further from the water. So it isn't impossible to have a lemon tree in Braavos, although trees of any description are atypical there.

There is definitely an association between lemons and poison in the books. And between citrus generally and Dorne and poison.

6. Lanna is the daughter of Tyrion

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. Theon is going to die for sure - in a sense he died when he became Reek. He asked the Old Gods for a sword, and to die as Theon not Reek. So he will die. But before he formed his Stark affinities, he was Ironborn. So when he dies (possibly when he is killed before the heart tree at the Crofters Village), there will be water involved, and once dead he will rise harder and stronger.

[kissdbyfire]

42 minutes ago, Walda said:

1. Jon's parentage  I think Jon is the legitimate son of Oberyn Martell and the Prince That Was Promised. Just based on his widow's peak, dark eyes, age, and unStarklike intelligence. Not sure if he ended up with his uncle Eddard or if the Starks took him on in some baby-swap to protect him from Targaryen rulers (including cousin Robert Baratheon) who would kill him for his kingsblood.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here. Can you elaborate? 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Walda said:

1. Jon's parentage  I think Jon is the legitimate son of Oberyn Martell and the Prince That Was Promised. Just based on his widow's peak, dark eyes, age, and unStarklike intelligence. Not sure if he ended up with his uncle Eddard or if the Starks took him on in some baby-swap to protect him from Targaryen rulers (including cousin Robert Baratheon) who would kill him for his kingsblood.

At no time is Jon described as having widow's peak.

[BalerionTheCat]

21 hours ago, divica said:

And if theon isn t mentioned this peace becomes even easier...

This is an interesting point IMO. Because both Jaime and Theon played a part in Bran's journey. Without them, he would not be a greenseer with BR. He would likely have been killed by the Boltons while still at Winterfell. And Westeros would be missing a key player in the war to come. It was, so to say, what they were born for. IMO, Theon has nothing to fear from Bran. Bran will make it clear to Stannis and the Northerners.

This story has prophecies since millennia. So, IMO, it means something like a master plan. Bran is in it, Jon and Daenerys too. Jaime and Theon have a lesser role. But they are there too.