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kissdbyfire

For the record... and posterity!

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11 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what's CV again?

Weeeeeel, Lee, the abbreviation is CV and not VC --- crofter's village --- :laugh:

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Good call, @kissdbyfire! Honestly, there are TONS of these little theories that keep coming up that equate to - "Does everyone still believe [insert theory here]?" so bashing it all out in one place makes sense.

  1. R+L=J. Firm and unmovable.
    I worked it out myself and have yet to see a single argument as compelling and interesting as this one.
    1b. Jon is not a twin, btw.
  2. Tyrion /= Targaryen.
    He is and always has been Tywin's son. I despise the idea of him being a Targ. I would swallow Jaime and Cersei being the Mad King's kids before Tyrion. To make him a Targaryen feels like it would undermine the tragedy of Tyrion and Tywin's relationship.
    2b. To clarify, I think all three of Tywin's children are his biological children.
  3. Jojen Paste is a myth.
    Jojen Paste is one of those theories I feel is soooooooooooooooooo overblown that it can actually irritate me a little bit.
    3b. Jojen is not dead, full stop. He probably will die eventually but not yet. This idea he'd be killed off page and it all be left ambiguous... no.
  4. The Pink Letter was, indeed, penned by Ramsay.
    It never occurred to me it was written by someone else and while some of the theories are "fun"... nah. I don't see the point. The fact that Ramsay is something of a foil to Jon means that the letter being penned by another undermines that for me.
  5. Lemongate is a lie.
    The tree and the door are in the Sealord's Palace, in Braavos. The betrothal more or less proves it for me.
    Sorry, Preston Jacobs and the rest of the Dorne-believers.
  6. Lanna
    If she's anyone's daughter, it's Gerion's.
    Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuutttttttt I really wouldn't object to her being Tyrion's daughter and the Sailor's Wife being Tysha.
  7. Theon will live (yet) another day!
    I agree that he's not going to be sacrificed. He'll probably be used in a plot to sneak into Winterfell or something. Plus, I think his semi-conversion to the Old Gods thanks to Bran's mutterings will come into play. He'll get that sword he asks for.

Additions mentioned here and there by others:

  1. Aegon a.k.a. Young Griff
    He's probably (f)Aegon but I doubt it will ever be spelled out for us either way because it won't matter. Dany might use the doubt as an excuse to oppose him but in the end if Arianne backs and likely marries him, that's basically acceptance by the Martells and "proof" he is Aegon VI.
  2. Rhaego is dead. Seriously.
    I baffles me that this is even in doubt. And he is not a time travelling foetus. At most, maybe you can argue his spirit lives on in the dragons since his death helped pay for their lives.
  3. The Valonqar
    If it is a person, it's probably Jaime though the idea of it really being as straightforward as Tyrion and the irony is that Cersei's actions just cause it to happen would be satisfying too. However I must admit to liking the idea that the Valonqar is a device rather than an actual person.
  4. Dany's parentage.
    Aerys and Rhaella. I see no legitimate reason to doubt this.
  5. Septa Lemore.
    Is NOT Ashara Dayne. MIGHT be Tyene's mother. Would be interesting way to bring in the Hightowers if she is Melora Hightower.
  6. Who is the Harpy?
    (Hiya @Curled Finger) Honestly, I think it is the Green Grace and those around her might be. Though, having said that the idea it might be someone within Dany's court doing it like the Shavepate etc etc would be cool. We all expect it to be tied to the Masters but it would be just as impactful if it was indeed some of the more hardline anti-Master sects.
  7. What is Lady Stoneheart up to?
    Based on AFfC, it appears she is indeed heading towards the Neck. So, she might be one of the many things Howland has stashed up there. I like the idea that she might have taken Jaime and Brienne with her too but I have no reason to believe this other than it would be super cool if they went North on whatever death mission she has on her mind.

A few more for good measure:

  1. Who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree?
    Lyanna Stark, aided and abetted by Benjen. Howland and Ned probably knew what she did but said nothing.
  2. Who was Ashara's baby-daddy?
    If she even HAD one to begin with... it was most likely Brandon given that it was supposedly "Stark" and speaks to his character as described by Lady Barb; could have been someone like Oberyn (again, speaks to his character) or Howland (why give a damn about how many people the purple-eyed maid danced with). Definitely not Ned because it is contrary to his character.
  3. Where is Robb's will? Ned's bones?
    In the Neck, with Howland.
  4. Where is Howland Reed?
    In the Neck, as himself. He is not the High Sparrow or the Mad Mouse or [Insert character here].
  5. How did Howland save Ned?
    By throwing his net over Arthur Dayne.
  6. Frey Pies
    Probably. Can't say I care either way. :dunno:
  7. Is Bloodraven really the Three-Eyed Crow?
    Yes. As much as I have partook in discussions arguing that he isn't and entertaining other ideas... I really do think he is. I see no point in there being some shocker reveal that it's someone or something else.
  8. Where in the wide, wide world is Tyrek Lannister?!
    The lack of a body doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't dead though the choice to keep asking the question makes me think he's probably still alive. The theory put forward in AFfC is that Varys snatched him up, which makes me think Littlefinger is probably the one who actually has him.

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44 minutes ago, Faera said:

Good call, @kissdbyfire! Honestly, there are TONS of these little theories that keep coming up that equate to - "Does everyone still believe [insert theory here]?" so bashing it all out in one place makes sense.

  1. Rhaego is dead. Seriously.
    I baffles me that this is even in doubt. And he is not a time travelling foetus. At most, maybe you can argue his spirit lives on in the dragons since his death helped pay for their lives.
  2. The Valonqar
    If it is a person, it's probably Jaime though the idea of it really being as straightforward as Tyrion and the irony is that Cersei's actions just cause it to happen would be satisfying too. However I must admit to liking the idea that the Valonqar is a device rather than an actual person.
  3. Dany's parentage.
    Aerys and Rhaella. I see no legitimate reason to doubt this.
  4. Septa Lemore.
    Is NOT Ashara Dayne. MIGHT be Tyene's mother. Would be interesting way to bring in the Hightowers if she is Melora Hightower.
  5. Who is the Harpy?
    (Hiya @Curled Finger) Honestly, I think it is the Green Grace and those around her might be. Though, having said that the idea it might be someone within Dany's court doing it like the Shavepate etc etc would be cool. We all expect it to be tied to the Masters but it would be just as impactful if it was indeed some of the more hardline anti-Master sects.
  6. What is Lady Stoneheart up to?
    Based on AFfC, it appears she is indeed heading towards the Neck. So, she might be one of the many things Howland has stashed up there. I like the idea that she might have taken Jaime and Brienne with her too but I have no reason to believe this other than it would be super cool if they went North on whatever death mission she has on her mind.

A few more for good measure:

  1. Who was Ashara's baby-daddy?
    If she even HAD one to begin with... it was most likely Brandon given that it was supposedly "Stark" and speaks to his character as described by Lady Barb; could have been someone like Oberyn (again, speaks to his character) or Howland (why give a damn about how many people the purple-eyed maid danced with). Definitely not Ned because it is contrary to his character.
  2. Where is Robb's will? Ned's bones?
    In the Neck, with Howland.
  3. Where is Howland Reed?
    In the Neck, as himself. He is not the High Sparrow or the Mad Mouse or [Insert character here].
  4. How did Howland save Ned?
    By throwing his net over Arthur Dayne.
  5. Frey Pies
    Probably. Can't say I care either way. :dunno:
  6. Is Bloodraven really the Three-Eyed Crow?
    Yes. As much as I have partook in discussions arguing that he isn't and entertaining other ideas... I really do think he is. I see no point in there being some shocker reveal that it's someone or something else.
  7. Where in the wide, wide world is Tyrek Lannister?!
    The lack of a body doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't dead though the choice to keep asking the question makes me think he's probably still alive. The theory put forward in AFfC is that Varys snatched him up, which makes me think Littlefinger is probably the one who actually has him.

Hiya Faera!   I've only ever seen 1 poster rage on about Rhaego.   I honestly didn't even realize it was a thing.   Personally, I want Ashara's baby's pop to be Selmy, but that won't happen.   Yah try reading his recollections with that bit in mind!  Pretty much agree on nearly all...but I want to add Olyvar Frey and Reynald Westerling to the list of missing.  Those guys are really interesting.  Really nice additions to our lovely host's list.   

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34 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hiya Faera!   I've only ever seen 1 poster rage on about Rhaego. 

I know there is a fringe movement of people who insist he must be alive because he's "the stallion who mounts the world". However, I feel that one could argue that through the blood magic that brought Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion into the world made them the "stallion(s)", so to speak. I've seen fairly compelling arguments that Drogon is TStMtW being the figurative "son" of Dany and bearing the name of Khal Drogo.

38 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Personally, I want Ashara's baby's pop to be Selmy, but that won't happen.   Yah try reading his recollections with that bit in mind!

Aha, yeah. As much as I have made fun of it, I'd frankly be chuffed if it turns out Howland was the baby-daddy since it feels like the potentially "happiest" outcome though I have resigned myself to the fact it is likely Brandon. With Barry, there feels to be too much of this sense of regret in him, that somehow her honour would have been saved if he could have been her champion for him to have been the baby-daddy.

42 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

but I want to add Olyvar Frey and Reynald Westerling to the list of missing.  Those guys are really interesting.  Really nice additions to our lovely host's list.   

It's possible. Some I think will turn out to be just dead... and I am one of those people who don't think Jeyne will necessarily survive the WoW prologue. Which reminds me:

9. Jeyne Westerling is NOT pregnant and has not been switched with a body double.
I believe it when it is said that this was just an authorial error.

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8 hours ago, the Other Wolf said:

This

Well then, yes, I think he’s a Liddle. :)

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what's CV again?

Crofter’s Village.

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2 hours ago, Faera said:
  • Who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree?
    Lyanna Stark, aided and abetted by Benjen. Howland and Ned probably knew what she did but said nothing.

Hey Faera! I see our replies are almost all the same. :)

So now to the ones you proposed...

Yes, Lyanna Stark. Also agree on HR and Benjen being in on it. 

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  • Who was Ashara's baby-daddy?
    If she even HAD one to begin with... it was most likely Brandon given that it was supposedly "Stark" and speaks to his character as described by Lady Barb; could have been someone like Oberyn (again, speaks to his character) or Howland (why give a damn about how many people the purple-eyed maid danced with). Definitely not Ned because it is contrary to his character.

:agree:

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  • Where is Robb's will? Ned's bones?
    In the Neck, with Howland.

I think Ned’s bones are in the Neck. Robb’s will I’m less sure of however... Robb tells Maege and Glover that they’re to go to GW and that the crannogmen will find them and bring them to HR. He also tells them they’ll be carrying false intel, in case they’re captured. I find it odd that he talks about the fake info but doesn’t mention the will - if his intent was to send it w/ them. The other thing that bugs me is the fact that the possibility of Maege and Glover being captured was real enough for Robb to send letters w/ fake intel, but he’s totally ok with sending his will? Doesn’t really add up IMO. So, I think that if the will is at GW, it was someone else who brought it. 

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  • Where is Howland Reed?
    In the Neck, as himself. He is not the High Sparrow or the Mad Mouse or [Insert character here].

Yup. The HR is the High Sparrow is one of the weirdest ever tbh. 

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  • How did Howland save Ned?
    By throwing his net over Arthur Dayne.

Hmmm. Maybe, or maybe he skinchanged into... someone? :wideeyed:

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  • Frey Pies
    Probably. Can't say I care either way. :dunno:

Hell yeah, Frey Pies! :commie:

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  • Is Bloodraven really the Three-Eyed Crow?
    Yes. As much as I have partook in discussions arguing that he isn't and entertaining other ideas... I really do think he is. I see no point in there being some shocker reveal that it's someone or something else.

Bloodraven most definitely is the 3EC. 

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  • Where in the wide, wide world is Tyrek Lannister?!
    The lack of a body doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't dead though the choice to keep asking the question makes me think he's probably still alive. The theory put forward in AFfC is that Varys snatched him up, which makes me think Littlefinger is probably the one who actually has him.

I have no idea, and to be perfectly honest, I don’t care at all! :D

Hey @Curled Finger! I like your additions and am very curious to learn what has happened to both, but especially Westerling. I honestly have no clue on the whereabouts of either one. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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3 hours ago, Faera said:

Where in the wide, wide world is Tyrek Lannister?!

Out of sheer exhaustion from wading through all the Tyrek theories, I'm happy to take a slight hint from 'Fire & Blood' and posit that he wound up as a Bowl o' Brown after the riot :cheers:

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hey @Curled Finger! I like your additions and am very curious to learn what has happened to both, but especially Westerling. I honestly have no clue on the whereabouts of either one. 

Yah, all 3 missing boys or young men are really interesting, though I do have a particular interest in Frey and Westerling.  This was a really fun idea for a topic, @kissdbyfire.   If you do another we could go through all the missing and multiple identity people!   Lots of good replies here.   Well done!

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On 2/1/2019 at 1:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

Jojen paste.   With you all the way, Sister.   This. Did. NOT. Happen. 

Hear, hear! :D

 

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Team Ramsay, yesterday, today and forever.   But I do still love those arguments!  

I agree. There are discussions on the PL and its authorship out there that are super interesting. And there are extremely well-thought arguments being made proposing authors other than Ramsay. But they’re all wrong, Ramsay wrote it. :P

I don’t think the authorship of the PL is even supposed to be a great mystery. The letter has lies, misinformation, misunderstandings, and as Jon tells Tormund, “There is truth in there”, too. And that is the real puzzle, not who wrote it. 

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  I thought Lanna was too old to have been Tyrion's?   This is a thing?   Still?   Can't we spin this to where she's Tywin's just for fun? 

I actually never checked the timeline, I just don’t care enough. I just would like to know whether she is a Lannister bastard. I think the clue is the name, “Lanna”, because it makes me think of Robert’s little bastard daughter Barra. Like, is it a thing? A way to name a bastard that points to parentage w/o being too obvious? And I prefer Gerion over Tyrion just because. No real reason other than not being a huge Tyrion fan. :dunno:

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Doesn't anyone care who the Harpy is anymore?   I'm still checking names off.  I have determined Hizdar is not.  

I don’t... not much anyway. I used to think it was Reznak but I haven’t re-read any of those chapter in ages, if I ever re-read them at all. 

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I think my new favorite oft bandied conversation is rehashing what the hell Lady Stoneheart showed up for.   I haven't found any new supporting evidence, but I do love those impassioned arguments.   Man, I really really miss The Riverlands Web threads.   

I am super curious to see how it goes down w/ LSH, especially where it pertains to Brienne and Jaime. So many possibilities... one thing I’m positive about is, Brienne will not kill Jaime b/c LSH told her to. 

21 hours ago, divica said:

I don t get what you are saying. At the end of dance stannis says this 

No. The scene you are referring to is from TWoW Theon I.

Spoiler

"Wyman Manderly."  The king's mouth twisted in contempt.  "Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse.  Too fat to come to me, yet he comes to Winterfell.  Too fat to bend the knee and swear me his sword, yet now he wields that sword for Bolton.  I sent my Onion Lord to treat with him, and Lord Too-Fat butchered him and mounted his head and hands on the walls of White Harbor for the Freys to gloat over.  And the Freys... has the Red Wedding been forgotten?"

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So I am pretty sure that at the beguining of winds (like within a couple of days of stannis saying this) he thinks that wyman manderly killed davos and has no reason to believe otherwise.

How can you say the scene is at the end of Dance, and that the beginning of Winds is a couple of days later? How can you possibly know that? Answer is, you can’t. And not because I’m saying you can’t, but because it’s dead wrong. 

For instance, TWoW Theon I happens before ADwD Jon XIII. So, some events happening in the beginning of Winds, are occurring before things that happened towards the end of Dance

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Seems to me that you are forgetting that this is the core of stannis. That he will break before he bends.

Sure. And Robert was “true steel”. :rolleyes:

It’s called “character development”, not character stagnation for a reason. 

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That he believes in justice, duty and law above all comon sense… And we have seen no reason to believe he is changed into a diferent person.

Nope. We have most definitely seen development. Stannis is not exactly the same man he was when we first met him in Clash. That doesn’t, and isn’t supposed to, mean he now is Jesus Christ or Buddha. 

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Hell, is disaster of a march and unwilingness to abandon the attack of winterfell show he is the same person that had to be dragged from KL…

Couldn’t possibly disagree more. It’s almost like you’re talking about the abomination’s version of Stannis. What do you propose he does? He is doing the only intelligent thing he can do given the circumstances. 

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You can t say a character might be changed and not show any proof of this change… you might as well say stannis might grow wings and fly…

Just b/c you didn’t see it, doesn’t mean it’s not there. 

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 Even ignoring the fact that stannis thinks he killed davos. As far as we know the northern houses inside winterfell that support him have as many soldiers as the boltons. Therefore any surprise atack from them would have high probabilities of killing roose and ramsay. In adition, wyman didn t bring all his men to winterfell. If he can gather them his chances would be even better.

And how do we know any of this? Again, just because you believe it is so, doesn’t mean it actually is. Or else, give me some quotes that show that there are northern houses currently at Wintefell that “support” Wyman Manderly. And while you’re at it, I’d also like to see quotes on how strong each of these houses are.  

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Another fact is that stannis is already fighting against the freys and boltons. At worst case scenario wyman can just use the distraction of stannis atacking winterfell to kill his enemies. Wyman gains very little to align himself to stannis at the moment.

Already replied to the exact same argument, and I stick by what I said. 

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Dont Forget that stannis Southern army has had huge losses in the march 

Was trying to bold the second part and accidentally deleted it. Paraphrasing, that the northerners are w/ Stannis only until the Boltons are killed and fArya rescued. 

My reply is, you are again taking your head canon and running with it as if it’s an indisputable fact. All I can say is, you’re in for a few surprises. 

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It would make more sense for him to persuade the clansmen that they have higher chances of acomplishing their goals if they  abandon stannis and join him than him ofering his fealty to stannis. Don t forget that depending on who stannis choses as warden of the north it might lead to a northern civil war...

This doesn’t make sense. When should Manderly persuade the northerners to switch sides and support him? Remember, he didn’t ride out, only his men. If he’s still alive, he’s injured and still Roose’s “guest”. And why are you so certain Manderly wants any of this? He probably knows that, if the other houses have to swear fealty to anyone who is not a Stark, they won’t go for a house that is basically (in their eyes) a newcomer. I also happen to believe he was being honest and truthful when he talked to Davos. 

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I am just assuming as stannis thinks wyman killed his emissary that he would kill wyman for it if he has the chance.

Again, TWoW Theon I (where Stannis talks about Manderly having killed Davos) takes place before ADwD Jon XIII (where Jon receives the PL). I fact, I think TWoW Theon I happens before quite a few of Jon’s ADwD chapters. What if Davos turns up somewhere w/  Rickon? Davos left WH probably months before the PL. All of this to say, a lot may have happened.

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And I was saying that whoever is chosen as warden of the north is very important. Wyman doesn t talk for all north and for him to join stannis he must know who he would chose as warden because it might lead to the other houses revolting or even wyman disagreeing. And before you say they can wait for rickon I doubt that it is possible. Nobody knows if rickon is alive and after conquering winterfell stannis would need a warden imediatly. 

And? I’m not even sure where you’re going w/ this... 

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Of course it is possible. Roose distrusts wyman and he is his biggest obstacle to take over the north.

How do you reckon?

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There is no reason for him not to kill wyman if he can get away with it without anyone knowing. And are you sure that he brought 1000 men? I only remember the 300 and him leaving winterfell with 300 men.

If Roose can kill Wyman and has no reason not to, then are you now saying Wyman is dead? Because he remained at Winterfell, injured, as I’ve stated several times now. And if he’s dead, he’s not plotting anything, so...

And when exactly did Wyman leave Winterfell, regardless of having 3, 300, or 3,000,000 men with him when he left? Seriously, you’re basing your arguments on wrong information/head canon/wishful thinking. 

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Do you see how you are contradicting youself? At the same time you are saying that the fake freys would need to take action immediatly and that ramsay who would only arrive with them or learn about the battle when they arrived would have time to write the PL… The time window is just to short to believe it is possible...

Huh? I have no idea what you’re saying here, and will have to go back to see what I wrote previously.

@divica, I went back, and this is what .i said:

”Serious? This wouldn’t be a mission to infiltrate Winterfell and remain there hidden in plain sight. Once inside they’d have to make heir move pretty much immediately.”

And yeah, I don’t see any contradictions. 

Let’s agree to disagree for now and take it up again once we have Winds

Edited by kissdbyfire

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No. The scene you are referring to is from TWoW Theon I.

  Hide contents

"Wyman Manderly."  The king's mouth twisted in contempt.  "Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse.  Too fat to come to me, yet he comes to Winterfell.  Too fat to bend the knee and swear me his sword, yet now he wields that sword for Bolton.  I sent my Onion Lord to treat with him, and Lord Too-Fat butchered him and mounted his head and hands on the walls of White Harbor for the Freys to gloat over.  And the Freys... has the Red Wedding been forgotten?"

How can you say the scene is at the end of Dance, and that the beginning of Winds is a couple of days later? How can you possibly know that? Answer is, you can’t. And not because I’m saying you can’t, but because it’s dead wrong. 

For instance, TWoW Theon I happens before ADwD Jon XIII. So, some events happening in the beginning of Winds, are occurring before things that happened towards the end of Dance

You are mixing things arghhh. It doesn t matter if theon I happened a lot of time before jon received the PL. What is important for stannis are the events in stannis timeline. And stannis is going to face the freys within days of theon 1 that happens within a day or so from asha's last chapter.

Therefore he is going to interact with the manderley's within a few days of theon I where he thinks that wyman killed davos. 

So yes. I am sure that theon I happens a few (1 or 2) days after asha's last chapter in dance. And I also know that the freys/manderleys will arrive within days after theon because they left winterfell at the same time as him and are headed to the same place. There is no doubt about this! NO DOUBT! If you can t be clear on this try to read only asha's and theon last chapters and you will understand that all this happens within days, 

So yes. It is very unlikely that stannis would ally himself with the manderleys in the beguining of winds because he thinks they killed davos! 

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure. And Robert was “true steel”. :rolleyes:

It’s called “character development”, not character stagnation for a reason. 

Nope. We have most definitely seen development. Stannis is not exactly the same man he was when we first met him in Clash. That doesn’t, and isn’t supposed to, mean he now is Jesus Christ or Buddha. 

Couldn’t possibly disagree more. It’s almost like you’re talking about the abomination’s version of Stannis. What do you propose he does? He is doing the only intelligent thing he can do given the circumstances. 

Just b/c you didn’t see it, doesn’t mean it’s not there. 

What we have seen from stannis is him going into insane stannis and back to normal stannis… There is no indication that he is a new man capable of compromisse or understanding… Hell, jon's evaluation of him is pretty recent and we have seen how incapable he was of dealing with the wildlings (he just wanted to force them to be his vanguard and didn t understand their culture)… You are just ignoring whatever is said about stannis and saying he changed without giving any proof. 

40 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And how do we know any of this? Again, just because you believe it is so, doesn’t mean it actually is. Or else, give me some quotes that show that there are northern houses currently at Wintefell that “support” Wyman Manderly. And while you’re at it, I’d also like to see quotes on how strong each of these houses are.  

Already replied to the exact same argument, and I stick by what I said. 

There is the snow men scene that implies that 4 houses are together and I remember Reading somewhere (book or here) that all add up they had about the same number of men as the boltons inside winterfell. It might be wrong but I don t have time to go check all that info about "wyman's rebellion"

46 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Was trying to bold the second part and accidentally deleted it. Paraphrasing, that the northerners are w/ Stannis only until the Boltons are killed and fArya rescued. 

My reply is, you are again taking your head canon and running with it as if it’s an indisputable fact. All I can say is, you’re in for a few surprises. 

Nope. A clansmen clearly tells asha why they are marshing to winterfell and it is also shown their displeasure about the southerns burning people and stannis allowing it.

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That seemed to amuse the northman. "I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.
"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."
"Aye!" shouted Morgan Liddle. "Blood and battle!" Then all the hillmen were shouting, banging their cups and drinking horns on the table, filling the king's tent with the clangor.
 
 
 
"What has your southron god to do with snow?" demanded Artos Flint. His black beard was crusted with ice. "This is the wroth of the old gods come upon us. It is them we should appease."
"Aye," said Big Bucket Wull. "Red Rahloo means nothing here. You will only make the old gods angry. They are watching from their island."
 
"R'hllor will doom us," said Artos Flint.
A pox on both your gods, thought Asha Greyjoy.
Ser Godry the Giantslayer surveyed the stakes, shoving one to make certain it was firmly placed. "Good. Good. They will serve. Ser Clayton, bring forth the sacrifice."

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Huh? I have no idea what you’re saying here, and will have to go back to see what I wrote previously. 

You said that you think stannis will disguise his men as freys and attack winterfell as soon as they are inside and that ramsay wrote the PL. And Both events are impossible, Ramsay will either march later to stannis camp or wait inside winterfell. In the first scenario he will arrive in winterfell with stannis fake freys and therefore no have time to write a letter before winterfell is atacked. In the second scenario he will onle learn of the result of the battle when stannis fake freys arrive at winterfell and therefore he won t have time to write the PL letter.

Therefore it is neraly impossible that both things you wrote happen. they kind of contradict themselves timewise.

ps If I missed something in your post I might reply later if I remember, this was just a very big post and I am tired

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There was a neat speculation about Tyrek and the reason he has gone missing sometime ago by one of the posters here. 

The gist of it was that Tyrek went missing because of his marriage to Esmerande Hayford. House Hayford was a house loyal to Targaryen and Tyrek being a Lannister would have taken a potential ally away from Aegon, so Varys took him to prevent that from happening. 

All the event at Stokeworth in the 4th book could be tied to that.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There was a neat speculation about Tyrek and the reason he has gone missing sometime ago by one of the posters here. 

The gist of it was that Tyrek went missing because of his marriage to Esmerande Hayford. House Hayford was a house loyal to Targaryen and Tyrek being a Lannister would have taken a potential ally away from Aegon, so Varys took him to prevent that from happening. 

That does sound quite interesting, and I’m not even that curious about Tyrek!

@divica, will stick to agreeing to disagree. :cheers:

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On 1/29/2019 at 5:36 PM, kissdbyfire said:

1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J

 2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen

4. Ramsay wrote the PL

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV. 

 

1. Agreed, it seems absurd to believe otherwise at this point.

2. The clues are there that Tyrion could be a Targ, and I think it would be more fun if he was so I'm going to say he is the son of the Mad King.  

3. Bran's paste does include Jojen's blood.  Jojen may still be alive and he is willingly sacrificing himself for the cause.

4. Ramsay is the one character I am certain did not write that letter.  It did not remotely resemble the writing style and appearance of a known example of Ramsay's writing.  If I'm picking between Stannis and Mance I'm choosing Mance.  A move like that doesn't feel like one Stannis would make.  

5. Agreed, I don't think it matters that much though.

6. I'd want to refresh my memory on the timelines and Lanna's age.  I can't remember the specifics of the various arguments.

7. Theon will survive the upcoming battle.

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The Harpy is the Green Grace, it is known:

Quote

"I may be a young girl innocent of war, but I am not a lamb to walk bleating into the harpy's den.

ADoD, Dany V

Well, she just did that in the previous chapter:

Quote

Her cooks had prepared them a magnificent meal of honeyed lamb, fragrant with crushed mint and served with the small green figs she liked so much. Two of Dany's favorite hostages served the food and kept the cups filled—a doe-eyed little girl called Qezza and a skinny boy named Grazhar. They were brother and sister, and cousins of the Green Grace, who greeted them with kisses when she swept in, and asked them if they had been good.

ADoD, Dany IV

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15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hey Faera! I see our replies are almost all the same. :)

 So now to the ones you proposed...

Yes, Lyanna Stark. Also agree on HR and Benjen being in on it. 

Quote
  • Who was Ashara's baby-daddy?
    If she even HAD one to begin with... it was most likely Brandon given that it was supposedly "Stark" and speaks to his character as described by Lady Barb; could have been someone like Oberyn (again, speaks to his character) or Howland (why give a damn about how many people the purple-eyed maid danced with). Definitely not Ned because it is contrary to his character.

:agree:

 

Great minds think alike, I guess!

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think Ned’s bones are in the Neck. Robb’s will I’m less sure of however... Robb tells Maege and Glover that they’re to go to GW and that the crannogmen will find them and bring them to HR. He also tells them they’ll be carrying false intel, in case they’re captured. I find it odd that he talks about the fake info but doesn’t mention the will - if his intent was to send it w/ them. The other thing that bugs me is the fact that the possibility of Maege and Glover being captured was real enough for Robb to send letters w/ fake intel, but he’s totally ok with sending his will? Doesn’t really add up IMO. So, I think that if the will is at GW, it was someone else who brought it. 

You are correct. Indeed, that's something that always left me with that niggle of doubt.

Admittedly this is where we get into my insane headcanons. If Galbert or Maege didn't have it on them, then someone else seems to have been entrusted with it. It needed to have been someone unaccounted for at the Red Wedding, someone who escaped or never attended yet could have taken the will or knew about it; had it been with Robb's party at the Twins then would have likely been mentioned to have discovered (and destroyed) by now. 

Bringing in @Curled Finger's "where in the wide world is Reynald Westerling?" I have flirted with the idea that maybe he took it. His blood trail ends at the Green Folk so, if he lived, he either went downstream further into the Riverlands or possibly tried to head towards the Neck. He was in the tent when Robb provided the orders in regards to his plans to take back Moat Cailin for the North and of "the worth of Howland Reed.” 

Either way, I feel that it needs to be somewhere safe in the North. Another thought I had is that Jason might have dropped it off somewhere (either with Howland or someone else) or it has somehow made its way to one of the other houses who are anything but enthused Bolton supporters.

14 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The gist of it was that Tyrek went missing because of his marriage to Esmerande Hayford. House Hayford was a house loyal to Targaryen and Tyrek being a Lannister would have taken a potential ally away from Aegon, so Varys took him to prevent that from happening. 

 

That's possible. 

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yah, all 3 missing boys or young men are really interesting, though I do have a particular interest in Frey and Westerling.  This was a really fun idea for a topic, @kissdbyfire.   If you do another we could go through all the missing and multiple identity people!   Lots of good replies here.   Well done!

Where do you think Olyver and Reynald might be @Curled Finger? I never actually asked. :P

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3 hours ago, Faera said:

Either way, I feel that it needs to be somewhere safe in the North. Another thought I had is that Jason might have dropped it off somewhere (either with Howland or someone else) or it has somehow made its way to one of the other houses who are anything but enthused Bolton supporters.

Where do you think Olyver and Reynald might be @Curled Finger? I never actually asked. :P

I recently read some persuasive arguments indicating that Olyvar Frey was packed off to his mom's family.   I like this.   It's another house to join the forces in rebellion against the Freys and Lannisters.  I wouldn't normally go for an idea like this, but the Freys are not known for their loyalty to each other and Olyvar was very loyal to Robb.   There is a reason he was sent away prior to the Red Wedding.  Don't count this boy out yet.   Reynald Westerling is another matter.   I can't find anyone to match his description, but he does seem to the the oldest of the missing.   I'm guessing he's around 18 or 19.   He's an excellent candidate for joining or being rescued by the BwB, but I was looking for him on the Quiet Isle.  I get a definite Blackfish vibe from Westerling--protect the queen and all that-- Not enough on this yet and the North may be precisely where he went given his loyalty to Robb.   I just get the feeling there is a whole lot more going on at the QI than healing.   Too many moving parts missing from this story.   They, along with Ned's bones, Valyrian Steel swords and all the crowns are somewhere.   

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1. Jon's parentage: firmly on R+L=J
Absolutely. I need no other proof than the KG telling Ned at the ToJ, that their vows send them here, not at the Trident, KL or Dragonstone.
 
2. Tyrion is not a Targ, he isn't Aerys' son
He is not. But Cersei and Jaime are Aerys'.

3. Bran didn't eat Jojen
He didn't eat him.

4. Ramsay wrote the PL
Mance wrote it.

5. Red door/lemon tree = Braavos
Yes.

6. Lanna is the daughter of the SW and Gerion Lannister, not Tyrion
Gerion.

7. Theon will not be killed before the heart tree at the CV.
No. He will serve Ban and the Old Gods from now on.

8. Young Griff is the real Aegon Targaryen
Real Aegon is dead. The Fake one is Illrio's son by Serra Blackfyre.

9. Rhaego is dead. What else?

10. Jaime is the valonqar.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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Recent additions to the list:

1.  The Knight of the Laughing tree was Lyanna Stark.  I'm surprised there is any question.

2.  Ashara's baby's father was probably one of the Stark brothers. My money is on Ned.  I don't think it is out of character.  I wouldn't be surprised if they had an affair with the expectation of being able to marry later, similar to Barbrey and Brandon.  It would be a good match for both.  Then all hell broke loose and it didn't happen.  

3.  Robb's will and Ned's bones are both in the neck at Greywater Watch.

4.  Howland Reed is also at Greywater Watch. He is not the High Sparrow or the Mad Mouse, both of whom are who they appear to be.

8.  I think Tyrek Lannister took advantage of the chaos of the riot to go into hiding.  He has access to money and he know too much.   I think he may be hiding in Braavos. 

Olyvar Frey is not missing; he was simply kept out of the Red Wedding due to his presumed pro-Stark sympathies.He may or may not be Rosby's heir.  Raynald Westerling is dead.

Edited by Nevets

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Jon's parentage - Jonathan is dead so I don't give a f#$& 

Tyrion's parentage - he is a Lannister 

Jojen paste - no Bran didn't eat Jojen

PL - I don't know

House with the Red Door and Lemon Tree - Tyrosh or Dorne

Lanna - I don't care why is she important again?

Theon - he will be Lord of Ironborn 

Aegon - son of Rhaegar and Elia if not I can see him being son of Aerys and Rhaella but he is really a Targaryen unlike Jonathan 

Rhaego - dead 

Valonqar - Tyrion or Jaime 

KOLT - was Ned Stark, seriously Lyanna couldn't lift a lance if her life depended on it 

Ashara's lover - Ned Stark you doubt her family? Hmm 

Howland - Honestly I wouldn't care if he was dead if he wanted to help Starks he would by now 

Tyrek - that blonde boy from Aleyne chapters 

Septa Lemore - I was leaning towards Ashara but I think she is much more important but no identity fits her for now 

Daenerys - is not daughter of Rhaella and Aerys 

Edited by Jova Snow

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