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Ranking the houses power in each region

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There are a lot of topics about military size, so I'd like to make a ranking for each region considering military size, wealthy and land control.

So I'd like to start with north because they're the region that we most know about.

 

 

1. Manderly

It's pretty easy since they rule the largest harbor in the north , control some silver production and land with fertility

 

2.Starks

I think they're tue second because I belive that the tallhart and glovers are not only vassals, they're more likely managers of the stark, I mean they're masterly house, and when Ned Stark want to put some archers in Moat Cailin he asked to these  2 masterly house. 

He could have asked for ryswell or dustin since they're near, or even manderly.

So I believe they have a diferent relation.

3. Boltons

They're king , they opposed starks and managed to survive for so many years I mean they should have a lot of pety lord and good influence in the north to rebel against the lord paramount.

 

4.Dustin

Control the second largest city in the north, are near the south, I think that they're not so powerfull as the boltons because there are a lot of rocks in their land , but it's pretty close. Maybe they have similar military size but I think that the Boltons have more influence.

5.6.7.8 - Karstark/Umbers/Ryswell/Mountain Clan

I think they're pretty similar in power, and it's hard to say who is the stronger one.

Keep in mind that the mountains clan are all united as one, but I think the're less powerfull because the other houses are better equipped

9.Hornwood

Good lands in south, was they had men to help robb, to fight for rodrick and also after ramsay murdered lady hornwood, I believe that they increased bolton force.

 

10.Cerwyn 

I Believe they control less lands if you compare then with the hornwood, but they also fighted for Robb and Sor Rodrick, don't remember with the're mentioned after that

11.12.13  - Flint of WW/Reed/Locke

The flint control land close to the hornwood so I belive that it's kind fertil The reed have a diferent life style but they're king once and they have a very good defensive land

I belive they have a pretty similar maps ,I think the Lockes have more potential of power but I believe that the manderlys are so strong that they steal they're influence, the same happen with the flint of WW. I mean with you're a pety lord would you prefer have Manderly protection or Locke protection.

 

14.15 - Flint of finger/Mormont

In wiki says that Flint of WW are the strongest flints.

Mormont are in extreme north,living in island , I don't believe they have fertil land and the winter may be to harsh

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It depends on what power is. Manderlys are obviously richer than the Starks, but is that all that matters in terms of raw power? I'd like to think that the Starks have honed a certain kind of fealty in their vassals over their thousands-year-long reign. If an upstart Lord Manderly were to hire sellswords and raise the banners in some rebellion against House Stark, I'm not sure he'd win necessarily. But this isn't something I'd be super fussed about.

Are we doing our own suggestions for other regions? If so, let's bring up my fave... 

Dorne

  1. House Martell, obviously. The only house in Westeros to keep a royal style, and that probably invokes a certain level of respect among your vassals, when you have your own princes instead of just lords and the princes of the Iron Throne above -- so houses are more likely to get behind the Martells when the banners are called. I mean, the Dornish lords were quick to get behind Meria when every castle was being charred to a crisp several times over in the Dragon's Wroth. I also imagine that being a quasi-royal family allows them to get away with a little higher tax rate on their vassals directly to them. Not only that, they (probably?) control the Planky Town, the biggest trade route in Dorne, with wealth galore from all the tariffs etc.
  2. House Yronwood. Previously being High Kings of Dorne, they're probably the go-to house if you're fed up with House Martell and want to start a rebellion (they also still have the fancy title "The Bloodroyal"). They control the Stone Way as wardens, so probably have some jurisdiction on helping to raise the banners in that region, even if they don't control it fully. They also probably have some yew trees to export the famous Dornish yew that archers love. 
  3. House Fowler. A pretty good power-check on the Yronwoods, being Wardens of the Prince's Pass and having their traditional grudge with the Yronwoods. Martially they can cut off an invasion from the Reach pretty easily. Not sure about trade - yew trees probably grow there too, and if not, there might be some mining from the Red Mountains. Or possibly taxing caravans passing through the Prince's Pass.
  4. House Dayne. Starfall is pretty nicely situated. Trading wise, it seems situated as a natural stop-over between Oldtown and the Planky Town (or any journey between Oldtown and Essos), and due to the Torrentine there's probably a bit more of a temperate climate where you can grow and easily export those fruits that Dorne is famous for, like pomegranates -- or perhaps being a region that's a little less likely to be scorched during summertime.
  5. House Uller. Going to assume they have a lot of martial power. There's the whole Meraxes-Rhaenys incident, but Arianne also plans to crown Myrcella at the Hellholt. Gotta be a pretty important landmark if that's where you symbolically make a queen! I guess there's not much trade, though. It seems upriver on some maps, but I imagine that the ports at the end of the Hellholt river would be owned by the Ullers too. 
  6. House Wyl/Blackmont as equals. The Wyls have control of the river Wyl for growing crops, and the Blackmonts seem to have a river too. They're also probably key players in the defense of Dorne from the Stormlands/Reach respectively, but they're ranked lower than Yronwood/Fowler due to not having any sort of warden title. Though Wyl has the more illustrious history with Wylla of Wyl and Wyl of Wyl and their deeds, the Blackmonts have the status of former royals to sort of balance things out.
  7. House Jordayne/Toland as equals. They're located on the Sea of Dorne, so any ships from The Weeping Town or southern stormlands would stop off here for trade. However, thinking about it, I would maybe put Tolands ahead, being more easterly. It makes more sense for ships from King's Landing/Gulltown/White Harbor to dock here before they brave the Stepstones, rather than making a detour to Ghost Hill.
  8. House Manwoody. Last of the mountain houses as they don't seem to have any specific trade or a river, but I guess being former kings is good for prestige.
  9. House Gargalen. Salt Shore tells us two things: they have salt! And a shore, to easily export it! On a trade route between Oldtown and the Planky Town/Essos! Gotta be doing pretty well. Maybe they should rank higher?
  10. House Allyrion. They have good vineyards, and there's got to be a lot of Orphan traders. But being upriver and probably having a scorching desert outside of the habitable part of their domains isn't all that good.
  11. House Vaith. Same situation as Allyrions, but further inland... and probably with more desert. But they could make some money off the desert caravans going through the Red Dunes. Who knows?
  12. House Dalt. They're a knightly house, so they're going to rank a bit lower. They do have a nice lemon trade though, I imagine. And a lot of soft power with courtiers in Sunspear due to their proximity in court.
  13. House Ladybright. Are they lordly or knightly. Who knows? But they have a lord treasurer, so they can't be doing too badly.
  14. House Santagar. They're knights. Arianne's BFF is from there, as well as the master-at-arms in KL (but if he's Dornish, he was probably picked for actual skill rather than coming from a super good house)
  15. House Wells - One of them can go on a super secret trip to marry Quentyn to Dany!
  16. House Drinkwater - Daughters are decidedly not marriage material for a second-born of the Prince of Dorne.

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5 hours ago, Vaith said:

It depends on what power is. Manderlys are obviously richer than the Starks, but is that all that matters in terms of raw power? I'd like to think that the Starks have honed a certain kind of fealty in their vassals over their thousands-year-long reign. If an upstart Lord Manderly were to hire sellswords and raise the banners in some rebellion against House Stark, I'm not sure he'd win necessarily. But this isn't something I'd be super fussed about.

Are we doing our own suggestions for other regions? If so, let's bring up my fave... 

Dorne

  1. House Martell, obviously. The only house in Westeros to keep a royal style, and that probably invokes a certain level of respect among your vassals, when you have your own princes instead of just lords and the princes of the Iron Throne above -- so houses are more likely to get behind the Martells when the banners are called. I mean, the Dornish lords were quick to get behind Meria when every castle was being charred to a crisp several times over in the Dragon's Wroth. I also imagine that being a quasi-royal family allows them to get away with a little higher tax rate on their vassals directly to them. Not only that, they (probably?) control the Planky Town, the biggest trade route in Dorne, with wealth galore from all the tariffs etc.
  2. House Yronwood. Previously being High Kings of Dorne, they're probably the go-to house if you're fed up with House Martell and want to start a rebellion (they also still have the fancy title "The Bloodroyal"). They control the Stone Way as wardens, so probably have some jurisdiction on helping to raise the banners in that region, even if they don't control it fully. They also probably have some yew trees to export the famous Dornish yew that archers love. 
  3. House Fowler. A pretty good power-check on the Yronwoods, being Wardens of the Prince's Pass and having their traditional grudge with the Yronwoods. Martially they can cut off an invasion from the Reach pretty easily. Not sure about trade - yew trees probably grow there too, and if not, there might be some mining from the Red Mountains. Or possibly taxing caravans passing through the Prince's Pass.
  4. House Dayne. Starfall is pretty nicely situated. Trading wise, it seems situated as a natural stop-over between Oldtown and the Planky Town (or any journey between Oldtown and Essos), and due to the Torrentine there's probably a bit more of a temperate climate where you can grow and easily export those fruits that Dorne is famous for, like pomegranates -- or perhaps being a region that's a little less likely to be scorched during summertime.
  5. House Uller. Going to assume they have a lot of martial power. There's the whole Meraxes-Rhaenys incident, but Arianne also plans to crown Myrcella at the Hellholt. Gotta be a pretty important landmark if that's where you symbolically make a queen! I guess there's not much trade, though. It seems upriver on some maps, but I imagine that the ports at the end of the Hellholt river would be owned by the Ullers too. 
  6. House Wyl/Blackmont as equals. The Wyls have control of the river Wyl for growing crops, and the Blackmonts seem to have a river too. They're also probably key players in the defense of Dorne from the Stormlands/Reach respectively, but they're ranked lower than Yronwood/Fowler due to not having any sort of warden title. Though Wyl has the more illustrious history with Wylla of Wyl and Wyl of Wyl and their deeds, the Blackmonts have the status of former royals to sort of balance things out.
  7. House Jordayne/Toland as equals. They're located on the Sea of Dorne, so any ships from The Weeping Town or southern stormlands would stop off here for trade. However, thinking about it, I would maybe put Tolands ahead, being more easterly. It makes more sense for ships from King's Landing/Gulltown/White Harbor to dock here before they brave the Stepstones, rather than making a detour to Ghost Hill.
  8. House Manwoody. Last of the mountain houses as they don't seem to have any specific trade or a river, but I guess being former kings is good for prestige.
  9. House Gargalen. Salt Shore tells us two things: they have salt! And a shore, to easily export it! On a trade route between Oldtown and the Planky Town/Essos! Gotta be doing pretty well. Maybe they should rank higher?
  10. House Allyrion. They have good vineyards, and there's got to be a lot of Orphan traders. But being upriver and probably having a scorching desert outside of the habitable part of their domains isn't all that good.
  11. House Vaith. Same situation as Allyrions, but further inland... and probably with more desert. But they could make some money off the desert caravans going through the Red Dunes. Who knows?
  12. House Dalt. They're a knightly house, so they're going to rank a bit lower. They do have a nice lemon trade though, I imagine. And a lot of soft power with courtiers in Sunspear due to their proximity in court.
  13. House Ladybright. Are they lordly or knightly. Who knows? But they have a lord treasurer, so they can't be doing too badly.
  14. House Santagar. They're knights. Arianne's BFF is from there, as well as the master-at-arms in KL (but if he's Dornish, he was probably picked for actual skill rather than coming from a super good house)
  15. House Wells - One of them can go on a super secret trip to marry Quentyn to Dany!
  16. House Drinkwater - Daughters are decidedly not marriage material for a second-born of the Prince of Dorne.

Don’t forget the Qorgyles!

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I've listed the houses that are classified as main bannermen to the Tyrells in the appendix to A Game of Thrones and in The World of Ice and Fire. I was going to include the Beesburys, though Arianne regards them as petty lords, indicating they aren't that notable.

The Reach

  1. House Tyrell: They are the ruling house of the Reach and are incredibly wealthy, currently only surpassed by the Lannisters.
  2. House Hightower: Easily the most wealthy and powerful vassal of the Tyrells, said to field thrice as many men as the rest of the Tyrell bannermen. The Hightowers control the wealth and trade of Oldtown, maintain a bank, service a moderately sized fleet, and are the patrons of the Faith and Citadel. Several of their own bannermen are seemingly on par with other bannermen sworn directly to a great house. Retained much of their authority and power from when they were petty kings. During the Dance, they could field over nine thousand men.
  3. House Redwyne: The next most powerful bannermen, a very wealthy house in control of one of the largest fleets in Westeros. They claim an older and more distinguished lineage than the Tyrells. Currently, their close relations with the Tyrells (with additional marriages to the Hightowers and Rowans) ensure a place of prominence among the lords of the Reach.
  4. House Rowan: Another major house of the Reach, the Rowans seem to control most of the northern Reach, as well as Goldengrove sits on a river that extends from the westerlands to Highgarden. They have produced several notable figures in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, such as Lord Rickard, Lord Thaddeus, and most recently Lord Mathis, who seems to serve as one of Lord Tyrell's main military commanders. They also claim an older and more distinguished lineage than the Tyrells.
  5. House Tarly: Probably close in rank to the Rowans, the Tarlys are described as one of the main houses of the Reach and they maintain rich lands and a strong keep. As marcher lords, the Tarlys have a strong martial tradition and can likely field a large amount of men, described to be at least several thousand during the reign of Aenys I.
  6. House Oakheart: The Oakhearts are another powerful family sworn to the Tyrells, seemingly maintaining a place of prominence throughout the Targaryen reign, though any specifics in strength or wealth has never been specified. Regardless, they are clearly an influential house. They also claim an older and more distinguished lineage than the Tyrells.
  7. House Florent: Described as a major house and a rival to the Tyrells, the Florents are regarded as wealthy and influential. While Stannis notes they can only field two thousand men, this may not include their bannermen. Additionally, their recent marriages tie them to many notable houses in the Reach, allowing the current Lord of Brightwater Keep to seek refuge at Oldtown. They also claim an older and more distinguished lineage than the Tyrells.
  8. House Fossoway: Also an old and powerful house, sitting on the fork of the Mander and the Cockleswent, allowing them to control two major rivers in the Reach. They also seem to nab several marriages with the Tyrells over the history of the realm, and even their cadet branch is successful in marrying into the Tyrells and Hightowers.
  9. Houses Crane/Caswell/Ashford: All three have been described as major houses in the Reach, though seem to lack the influence of the others. The Cranes notably have several rich marriages, though we lack a lot of information on the house.
  10. House Merryweather: Once a rich and powerful house, their fortunate declined a lot after Robert's Rebellion, though they seem to maintain some level of influence.
  11. House Mullendore: Also described as a notable house, considered one of the most powerful bannermen of the Hightowers. Lord Mullendore's marriage to a Templeton (a house of landed knights, though still powerful) was considered an exceptional match for the Templeton girl, indicating the wealth of the Mullendores.
  12. House Vyrwel: They are described as a major house in the appendix to A Game of Thrones, but we know next to nothing about them.
Edited by LordSeaSnake

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5 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Don’t forget the Qorgyles!

You’re right. Probably between Vaith and Dalt? They did kill Lyonel Tyrell though

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Power changes very quick everywhere, for example; if robin arryn dies, the power of the vale goes to hardyng waynwood. One should suspect royce, but power is where people think its sit and that is with its lord. So i dont see why manderling got more power than tge starks, more money yes!

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18 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

Power changes very quick everywhere, for example; if robin arryn dies, the power of the vale goes to hardyng waynwood. One should suspect royce, but power is where people think its sit and that is with its lord. So i dont see why manderling got more power than tge starks, more money yes!

Siege of Dreadfort lasted 2 years. Unlike Boltons Manderlys has access to harbor so as long Starks do not build a navy White Harbor could get supplies via sea route. So in theory house M would have a chance to rebel successfully against Starks.

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30 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

Power changes very quick everywhere, for example; if robin arryn dies, the power of the vale goes to hardyng waynwood. One should suspect royce, but power is where people think its sit and that is with its lord. So i dont see why manderling got more power than tge starks, more money yes!

It's likely that Harry will take the Arryn name if he becomes lord of the Vale. Though there are a few exceptions after the Targaryen conquest and especially during the main series, the balance of power seems rather static in each region apart from big events like the Andal invasion and the coming of the Rhoynar.

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5 hours ago, Vaith said:

It's likely that Harry will take the Arryn name if he becomes lord of the Vale. Though there are a few exceptions after the Targaryen conquest and especially during the main series, the balance of power seems rather static in each region apart from big events like the Andal invasion and the coming of the Rhoynar.

Yes true because the arryn name holds power in it, so it would be wise. Waynwood is a closer alie with much more influence than before, because harry would have built a close bound with this house and has nothing to do with the royces.

 

5 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Siege of Dreadfort lasted 2 years. Unlike Boltons Manderlys has access to harbor so as long Starks do not build a navy White Harbor could get supplies via sea route. So in theory house M would have a chance to rebel successfully against Starks.

Also true but the whole of the north thinks power is with the stark name and a house of the south will never rule the north. The power of the manderlings is very lil now, even the freys are closer to the ruling power bolton. If he find rickon als this is going to change.

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On 1/30/2019 at 11:30 AM, Romag said:

There are a lot of topics about military size, so I'd like to make a ranking for each region considering military size, wealthy and land control.

So I'd like to start with north because they're the region that we most know about.

 

 

1. Manderly

It's pretty easy since they rule the largest harbor in the north , control some silver production and land with fertility

 

2.Starks

I think they're tue second because I belive that the tallhart and glovers are not only vassals, they're more likely managers of the stark, I mean they're masterly house, and when Ned Stark want to put some archers in Moat Cailin he asked to these  2 masterly house. 

He could have asked for ryswell or dustin since they're near, or even manderly.

So I believe they have a diferent relation.

 

How can House Manderly be more powerful than the ruling house?  All that they have is through the good graces of the Starks.  The Starks command the Manderlys allegiance (including troops), collect taxes as fealty, and set law & policy in the whole of the North.  

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7 hours ago, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

How can House Manderly be more powerful than the ruling house?  All that they have is through the good graces of the Starks.  The Starks command the Manderlys allegiance (including troops), collect taxes as fealty, and set law & policy in the whole of the North.  

It makes zero sense, the Starks make a House, already exiled from one realm for overreaching, more powerful than them. 

What happens if the Manderlys make a marriage alliance with the Boltons or Dustins and decide they want to rule? The Starks can not be that shortsighted. 

The Starks are almost certainly going to be stronger than a House they gave power to.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

It makes zero sense, the Starks make a House, already exiled from one realm for overreaching, more powerful than them. 

What happens if the Manderlys make a marriage alliance with the Boltons or Dustins and decide they want to rule? The Starks can not be that shortsighted. 

The Starks are almost certainly going to be stronger than a House they gave power to.

So let's play out the scenario.

The Starks have the Wolfsden, which has rotated between various houses from the Flints, Lockes, Slates and even some cadet branches of House Stark for centuries. So 1000 years ago they see an opportunity to improve this old fortress and give it to the Manderlys. The Manderlys arrive with gold and turn it into a town which grows into a city over the ensuing centuries. What's more, the city becomes a trade centre, and unlocks trade opportunities all up the White Knife.

Braavos is founded maybe 800 years ago, which suddenly creates a major trade route for White Harbor to export to. Villages pop up all along the White Knife and in the lands surrounding White Harbor as a result of White Harbor's growth. The lands prosper and develop. People gradually migrate from the poor Stony shore, Sea Dragon point, and other parts of the North (and later from the newly vulnerable New Gift) to move into what has now become the most prosperous region of the North.

The Manderlys of today are likely an order of magnitude more powerful and populous than they were when the Starks first granted them the Wolfsden. During all this time the Manderlys were fiercely loyal to the Starks.

So, in the above scenario, at what point should the Starks have intervened to stop the Manderlys sterling work in growing the North's economy?

So its not about granting the newcomers lands that make them more powerful than the Starks. It's about the Manderlys growing their wealth, population and power gradually over 1000 years to become the greatest of the Stark vassals.

Just like the Hightowers are stronger individually than the Tyrells are, so too it makes sense for the Manderlys to occupy the same position in the North.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

Just like the Hightowers are stronger individually than the Tyrells are, so too it makes sense for the Manderlys to occupy the same position in the North.

Are they? 

House Tully was unique amongst the great houses of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror had made them the Lords Paramount of the Trident, yet in many ways they continued to be overshadowed by many of their own bannermen. The Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Vances all ruled wider domains and could field much larger armies, as could the upstart Freys of the Twins.

 

What is the Tyrells/Gardeners being weaker than the Hightowers based on? They inherited everything the Gardeners had (well except prestige) and there seems no indication that they were weaker than them.

 

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

So its not about granting the newcomers lands that make them more powerful than the Starks. It's about the Manderlys growing their wealth, population and power gradually over 1000 years to become the greatest of the Stark vassals.

 

It actually is. White Harbour and the White knife were vital before the Manderly's and Braavos arrived, it is the obvious location for trade via Essos and other merchants by sea to come to. 

The Starks can't all be idiots, many will have realized this.  

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A ranking aside from, perhaps, the first couple of houses after the paramount house makes no sense since we have insufficient data to do this. And even with those houses we only have sufficient data for the Riverlands during the Dance, thanks to Gyldayn. One assumes that the Butterwells had an equally powerful position in TMK as the Freys did at the time, considering the size of the lands and the wealth they control at that time.

The difference between the Tyrells and the Tullys is obvious, and is explicitly and implicitly referred during the Conquest and the Dance. The Tullys were only made lords paramount by Aegon I. He did not extend their lands or increase their incomes. They had to make due with what the Riverrun and their traditional lands gave them, and there are multiple houses in the Riverlands who control larger lands than the Tullys, and some who have greater incomes.

Harrenhal was the royal seat of the Riverlands at that point, and it seems as if the Qorgyles and later the Harroways (who controlled the Hoare lands in addition to their ancestral lands around Lord Harroway's Town) were by far the most powerful houses in the Riverlands. Maegor did not grant the Harroways holdings to Walton Towers but split them up between the Towers, the Darrys, and the Butterwells. Might be the Strongs brought in their own lands, too, making the holdings of Harrenhal somewhat larger again. How much land Lucas Lorthston got when he was made Lord of Harrenhal remains to be seen.

The Tyrells, on the other hand, were granted the royal seat of Highgarden with all its lands and incomes, meaning they were made the richest and most powerful lords of the Reach in a single stroke. House Gardener was the most powerful house in the Reach.

In that sense, we have no reason to believe the Hightowers control greater lands than the Tyrells. In fact, if this were the case then the obvious power Mace Tyrell exerts over his bannermen would be based completely on an illusion.

Vice versa, Gyldayn's claim that the Tullys were unique in this means that the Manderlys are likely not more powerful than the Starks - although it seems they are more wealthy. The royal visit emptied the coffers of Winterfell to no small degree, and we can safely assume that many other wealthy houses could have feasted Robert much longer without feeling it as harshly as the Starks - Lord Tywin hosted King Aerys II for a year or more after the death of his lord father caused them to move the court to Casterly Rock, and this did cripple the finances of House Lannister.

After all, the relative poorness of House Peake strongly implies that vast and even fertile lands do not necessarily transfer into great wealth. If this can happen in the most fertile Reach then obviously vast fields of golden wheat do not necessarily make you rich. Instead, it seems that wealth is strongly connected to trade and gain derived by getting a percentage of trade (by taxes, tariffs, port fees, etc.). Nowhere do we see the heights successful trade can lift you than in the wealth of House Redwyne (who control a pretty small island) and, especially, in the wealth of House Velaryon who became the richest lords in Westeros thanks to a single (or a couple of) successful trade voyage(s) beyond the Jade Gates.

The tax policy of Jaehaerys I also implies that exotic spices and the like really are the goods that makes the people rich who deal in them.

How much lands the Stark directly control in comparison to their bannermen is an interesting question. One assumes they do not only control a huge chunk of the Wolfswood but also lands around those of the Cerwyns and lands east up to the Hornwood lands and north of Winterfell all the way up the lands of the clansmen and the Dreadfort.

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Utterly unfounded waffling, Lord Varys.

We know for a fact that the Starks conquered the Barrowlands from the Barrow Kings, the Rills from the Ryders, the Neck from the Marsh Kings, Cape Kraken and Bear Island from the Ironborn, Sea Dragon point from the Warg King, Deepwood Motte from the Glovers, the Wolfswood from the Blackwoods, the Mountains from the Clans, the Last Hearth from the Umbers, Karhold from an unnamed rebel lord, Skagos from the Skagosi and even the Dreadfort from the Boltons.

Plus a whole bunch of other lands from now extinct Houses. Who they dished these out to is up to them, and each time they handed some lands to a vassal, their own area of direct control shrunk, while their overall power grew.

There is nothing preventing some of these vassal areas to be larger or more populous than the area directly ruled by Winterfell. And no problem if that is the case either.

In fact, the Cerwyn lands seem like a prime candidate to have been directly ruled by the Starks in the past, being unusually close to Winterfell by Northern, or even Southron standards.

The Stark strength is 40,000, or whatever the entire North can raise. Just like the Karstark strength is 3000 only through what all their vassals can raise. House Dustin’s strength includes the strength of House Stout in the same way that House Stark’s strength includes that of House Dustin.

Your vassal’s strength is your own strength. Else the Stark direct strength should not even include that of the nearest petty lord in a holdfast half a day from Winterfell. That petty lord and House Manderly are both direct vassals of House Stark. Why include one in House Stark’s strength and not the other?

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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@Free Northman Reborn

I don't care much about the size of the actual Winterfell lands, but the quote about the Tullys implies that they are the only great house who has vassals whose lands are greater and who can field more men than they can.

Because, despite your weirdo ramblings above, Archmaester Gyldayn thinks it is a noteworthy fact and a problem for a lord paramount if individual vassals of that house can field more men than the lord paramount can without relying on the men of his vassals. There are specific Tully men in the Riverlands which include only the men directly sworn to Riverrun and Riverrun alone can field fewer men than the Brackens, the Blackwoods, the Vances, and the Freys. That is a fact and it is a problem for the Tullys, explaining their relative weakness and inability to control their bannermen.

And since that's only the case for the Tullys it makes sense to believe the Starks - who have been pretty powerful kings back in the day - actually control vaster lands than any of their bannermen. If this were not the case the Starks were in as a weak a position as the Tullys.

After all, in any realistic setting no lord would respect a liege or king who has smaller lands and is weaker militarily than the vassal himself. In such a case the wrong guy presumes to rule over the vassal. The situation should be reversed, and would be quickly reversed.

And your idea that the men of a lord or king somehow equal all the men sworn to them is laughable if Gyldayn makes a difference between those men. There is an obvious difference between a Winterfell man and a Dreadfort man insofar as their loyalty to House Stark is concerned. A Dreadfort man gladly helps his liege lord to butcher the Starks and any men loyal to them, whereas a man directly sworn is less likely to do something like that.

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12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

I don't care much about the size of the actual Winterfell lands, but the quote about the Tullys implies that they are the only great house who has vassals whose lands are greater and who can field more men than they can.

Because, despite your weirdo ramblings above, Archmaester Gyldayn thinks it is a noteworthy fact and a problem for a lord paramount if individual vassals of that house can field more men than the lord paramount can without relying on the men of his vassals. There are specific Tully men in the Riverlands which include only the men directly sworn to Riverrun and Riverrun alone can field fewer men than the Brackens, the Blackwoods, the Vances, and the Freys. That is a fact and it is a problem for the Tullys, explaining their relative weakness and inability to control their bannermen.

And since that's only the case for the Tullys it makes sense to believe the Starks - who have been pretty powerful kings back in the day - actually control vaster lands than any of their bannermen. If this were not the case the Starks were in as a weak a position as the Tullys.

After all, in any realistic setting no lord would respect a liege or king who has smaller lands and is weaker militarily than the vassal himself. In such a case the wrong guy presumes to rule over the vassal. The situation should be reversed, and would be quickly reversed.

And your idea that the men of a lord or king somehow equal all the men sworn to them is laughable if Gyldayn makes a difference between those men. There is an obvious difference between a Winterfell man and a Dreadfort man insofar as their loyalty to House Stark is concerned. A Dreadfort man gladly helps his liege lord to butcher the Starks and any men loyal to them, whereas a man directly sworn is less likely to do something like that.

The Tullys were historically never dominant in their region, nor did they inherit the power of a former royal House like the Tyrells did. The Starks historically conquered the entire North. They then proceeded to dish out most of it to their vassals, for practical administrative reasons.

That quote does not mean that all Lords Paramount directly rule more people than any of their vassals. 

I repeat: The lands ruled directly by House Stark without going through an intermediate vassal would exclude even the nearest holdfast ruled by the closest petty lord. You know, those holdfasts and villages Rodrik gathered the 600 reserves from.

As for the Reach: House Hightower can raise close to 20k men through their vassals. I highly doubt House Tyrell - or any House in Westeros for that matter - could raise close to that much without their vassals.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Tullys were historically never dominant in their region, nor did they inherit the power of a former royal House like the Tyrells did. The Starks historically conquered the entire North. They then proceeded to dish out most of it to their vassals, for practical administrative reasons.

Most of the houses the Starks conquered still rule the lands they always ruled. The Umbers, Boltons, Glovers were not replaced by other houses, for instance. And just because some lord was raised high by Winterfell does not mean his descendant remembered that forever. The Greystarks were made great by the Starks of Winterfell, yet they betrayed them.

More importantly, the North is clearly the most belligerent place in Westeros. Stark power is only strong when the Starks are strong. If a Stark lord shows weakness he seems to be quickly replaced by another, more powerful man. Just look how Robb is tested by his his father's vassals up to the point of being threatened and nearly killed in his own hall - or how Lord Cregan was dominated by his uncle despite the fact that he was technically already Lord of Winterfell in his own right.

Imagining that anyone would give a rat's ass about the Starks if Winterfell did not actually have enough manpower to challenge any of the houses sworn to Winterfell without needing the help of another bannermen to do this simply does not convince me.

Kings or lords as weak as that would have been gone.

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That quote does not mean that all Lords Paramount directly rule more people than any of their vassals.

That is exactly what it implies. It implies that the weak position of the Tullys is unique among the great houses of Westeros.

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I repeat: The lands ruled directly by House Stark without going through an intermediate vassal would exclude even the nearest holdfast ruled by the closest petty lord. You know, those holdfasts and villages Rodrik gathered the 600 reserves from.

No, it is clearly a difference when we are talking about great houses like the Brackens, Blackwoods, Vances, and Freys or small petty lords and landed knights and the like which are essentially little more than tenants.

After all, a historian living in Westeros actually thinks it is a meaningful political difference whether a great lord can field more men than a vassal house simply relying on his own men - the men sworn directly to his castle - or whether he can only do that by going through a great vassal house.

This means the Starks, Lannisters of Casterly Rock, Arryns of the Eyrie, Baratheons, Tyrells, and Martells are the most powerful houses in their respective regions - not by virtue of ruling over the others houses, but by virtue of the lands and resources they directly control.

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for the Reach: House Hightower can raise close to 20k men through their vassals. I highly doubt House Tyrell - or any House in Westeros for that matter - could raise close to that much without their vassals.

But that is what is implied. And as we already discussed elsewhere, the Hightowers may be able to raise 10,000+ men without actually relying on any of their bannermen.

Highgarden and Oldtown alone could easily enough raise 50,000 all by themselves. If the entire Reach can raise 100,000+ that wouldn't be that much of a problem since we have no clue how many men the other houses of the Reach can raise. If there are many who can only raise 500-1,000 men and then this would fit quite nicely.

One should also keep in mind that Willas and Garlan are raising men right now, and there is no hint that they rely on other lords and houses to do that. They may doing this calling only on the men directly sworn to Highgarden.

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38 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

As for the Reach: House Hightower can raise close to 20k men through their vassals. I highly doubt House Tyrell - or any House in Westeros for that matter - could raise close to that much without their vassals.

Can they?

"What is Lord Hightower doing?" Sam blurted. "My father always said he was as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden's other bannermen."

There is no evidence of a Reach House commanding 6,000 soldiers. The Florents, perceived to be a significant House can only raise half of that. The most powerful vassal in the Vale or Riverlands can't go beyond that, it does not seem likely the second most powerful vassal in the Reach can. 

Given we don't even know how many Lords reside in the Reach we can't even divide the number of troops by Houses to work out an average.

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7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Can they?

"What is Lord Hightower doing?" Sam blurted. "My father always said he was as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden's other bannermen."

There is no evidence of a Reach House commanding 6,000 soldiers. The Florents, perceived to be a significant House can only raise half of that. The most powerful vassal in the Vale or Riverlands can't go beyond that, it does not seem likely the second most powerful vassal in the Reach can. 

Given we don't even know how many Lords reside in the Reach we can't even divide the number of troops by Houses to work out an average.

We have discussed this in detail elsewhere. Lord Ormund's original host - which is attacked by two bannermen of House Hightower - seems to have been raised exclusively by the lands surrounding Oldtown and by Oldtown itself. And Lord Ormund has 1,000 knights, 1,000 archers, 3,000 men-at-arms, and uncounted sellswords, freeriders, camp followers, and rabble - implying he may have as many as 7,000-8,000 men.

Combine that with the fact that Lord Lyonel is later said to have had both the resources, manpower, and money to raise more armies thanks to the power of Oldtown it is quite clear that Oldtown alone should be able to field at least about as many as 10,000+ men - perhaps even more. And that's not strange or anything considering that hundreds of thousands of people live in the city. KL should be able to field an equal amount of men, although they seem to be rarely raised.

In that sense, we should take Sam's words as referring only to Oldtown and the lands directly sworn to House Hightower, not by means of their lords bannermen - who are all presented as powerful lords in their own right. Nobody ever refers to the Costaynes as petty lords. One of them even became a queen. The bannermen of Oldtown are sworn to House Hightower but they are also powerful lords in their own right and don't seem to be included into the armies House Hightower alone can raise. Combined they may be able to raise 20,000-30,000 men, depending how strong the bannermen are.

Highgarden might be able to raise 20,000 men without calling on any of their bannermen.

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