Ranking the houses power in each region

[HexMachina]

I feel like the other houses in the Westerlands weren’t given as much thought as they were in other regions so we get the impression (or Martin has made them by default)  that the Lannister’s have a more or less iron hold over the west

[Seaserpent]

On 2/15/2019 at 7:53 AM, Arthur Peres said:

Not really.

Greatjon draw steal in Robb's great hall and Robb thought he would be killed in his home.

Rickard Karstark betryed Robb when the tides changed.

Barbrey send as few men as possible and will not let Ned bones to reach Winterfell.

Barthogan Stark was slain during a Skago rebellion

Boltons are cleary not loyal.

Blackwoods had to be exiled from the north

Greystarks were extiguished after rebelling.

The Starks are/were the powerhouse from the north, if they were anything less than it they wouldn't hold the power for so long.

The Westerlands seems to be more loyal than the northem in general, besides the Reynes I don't remember any other house defying the Lannisters.

You give your own awnser back, the Westerlands were in total rebellion and chaos during the Reyne uprising, TWOIAF tells us that it looks more like the wild west, but The Reynes and the Tarbecks knew always right from the beginning the other houses would not have follow them overthrowing the Lannister.

Every region has his rebellious lords, but in the end the Power and loyalty of the most bannerman was always with the overlord. It is possible, but rebellions almost never triumph  in this story.

You give some good examples, but the Greystarks, blackwoods has not been saved or backed up by any other house against the Starks. The boltons seems to get the same faith. We only have to see if Dustin, Karstark and Umber are all more loyal to Bolton, than to the Starks. We can allready see the Manderlys are not. Barthogan is slain in one rebbelion with his bannerman against a little rebellious island. Greatjon and Karstark were not overthrowing or plotting to overthrow an overlord by their actions.

Rebbelious lords are everywhere through the realm, but it takes a lot to overthrow a house of an ancient rule!

[Arthur Peres]

14 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

Every region has his rebellious lords, but in the end the Power and loyalty of the most bannerman was always with the overlord. It is possible, but rebellions almost never triumph  in this story.

 

Sure, but my only point is that the North seems to be equal with regions about those rebellions.

We only have the Reynes rebelling in the Westerlands and even during that period Tywin's orders were followed by most of the other houses, when Robb put them against the wall we don't see anyone changing sides or questioning Tywin.

16 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

You give some good examples, but the Greystarks, blackwoods has not been saved or backed up by any other house against the Starks.

The Greystarks if I'm not mistaken were joined with th Boltons against the Starks.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sure, but my only point is that the North seems to be equal with regions about those rebellions.

We only have the Reynes rebelling in the Westerlands and even during that period Tywin's orders were followed by most of the other houses, when Robb put them against the wall we don't see anyone changing sides or questioning Tywin.

 

The fate of the Reynes and Tarbecks essentially put an end to all questions with regard to Lannister power in the Westerlands.  We know that Lord Farman was being somewhat disobedient sometime after that, but Tywin sent a reminder of the Reynes of Castamere and Farman meekly backed down.

During the reign of Tywin's father there was little regard for House Lannister, as King Aegon twice had to send armies into the West to restore order.  House Reyne was also the greatest threat to House Lannister since Aegon I.  It was said that Roger Reyne could have raised 9k had he given the time.  Tywin knew he had to put them down hard, and for good.  A lesson the Starks and Tullys never learned to their detriment.

 

[Seaserpent]

Thats correct, but i am not nitpicking. Some Rebellious lords against the majority of bannerman  who are with the Starks. Every region has some of those rebellious lords, but in the end the overlord wins the rebellion. If we look at the recent history which great houses were overthrown by their bannerman. The Tullys and the Starks, but both on orders (and help)of the king and some houses even went in open rebellion to the king thereafter. The other great houses like Hoare, Gardener and Durrandon were overthrown by Aegon with dragons. So at this moment in time great houses have loyal bannerman. The Starks still have more loyal supporter, thats the reason why Ramsey Married Fake Arya. SO if we believe Roose Bolton their claim is shit without her and the question is also; what if Ramsey did not marry Arya. Would an alliance Cerwyn, Glover, Mormont, Dustin, Ryswell, Mountain Clans and Manderly have overthrown them. My point of view is that even now almost all the houses are behind Arya and not Bolton. If the Boltons were overthrown. Almost all houses in the north would vote for Arya to rule the North. Umbers and Karstarks look very divided, but in the end are way to small to get any influence. Another example are the numbers. The boltons got onluy soem fake loyalty because they got the biggest army with the Freys together, but what if the Freys went south to the Twins or Bolton loses some men. Roose knows its done. The Northern houses are much more loyal to Starks than to anyone else.

[Lord of Brewtown]

On 2/4/2019 at 11:13 AM, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

There are specific Tully men in the Riverlands which include only the men directly sworn to Riverrun and Riverrun alone can field fewer men than the Brackens, the Blackwoods, the Vances, and the Freys. That is a fact and it is a problem for the Tullys, explaining their relative weakness and inability to control their bannermen.

 

 

Do we really know that the Tully's can field less men that the Brackens, Blackwoods, Vance's and Freys?   The Riverlands is probably the hardest region to judge, and I think the top 5-8 Lords may be much closer in strength/traditional power than in other regions.  

 

I think that House Tully is still predominant, as being Lord Paramount alone likely provides them with the extra prestige and income to attract and retain soldiers if necessary.  

I'd group tier 1B as:   Frey, Mallister, Blackwood, Bracken, and Vance of Wayfarer's Rest.  

Tier 2:  Piper, Darry, Mooton, Vance of Atrantra.  

House Strong/Whent were likely on par with tier 1B at peak, but I don't rank them there as my rankings are more of a general 200 years/since conquest.  Harrenhal provided prestige, as did being close to KL and having highly visible appointments.  However, they always seem to have trouble defending their lands, and Harrenhal itself seems to be in a consistent decline as far as state of repairs.  I view them more as 'paper tigers' than real powers.   

 

[Lord of Brewtown]

So, looking for some help here.  Creating a fictional OOTP baseball league based on Westeros.  Game allows you to change name generation file and cities/countries.  8 divisions of 8 teams - I'm generally looking for the 8 best houses to use from each region - taking some liberties based on names/what works.  So, who am I missing, or should I replace with another house (team/owner), or home park?  Or move divisions?  Team/House/Ballpark:

North: 1) Winterfell Direwolves/Stark/Ice Park, 2) Weeping Water Flayers/Bolton/Dreadfort, 3) White Harbor Mermen/Manderly/Fishfoot Yard, 4) Barrowtown Blades/Dustin/Barrow Hall, 5) Last Hearth Giants/Umber/Chainbreaker Park, 6) Karhold Northstars/Karstark/Karlon Field, 7) Deepwood Gauntlets/Glover/Deepwood Motte, 8) Rills Outriders(?)/Ryswell/Blaze Creek Bridge(?)

Vale: 1) Eyrie Falcons/Arryn/Moon Door, 2) Runestone Warlocks/Royce/Lamentation Park, 3) Gulltown Flames(?)/Grafton/Fire Tower Park(?), 4) Heart's Home Deceivers/Corbray/Lady Forlorn Field, 5) Longbow Arrows/Hunter/Longbow Hall, 6) Redfort Highlanders/Redfort/Strongstone Park, 7) Strongsong Silver Bells/Belmore/Glacial Flow Park, 8) Ironoaks Black Wheels/Waynwood/???

Trident:  1) Riverrun Trout/Tully/Two Rivers Field, 2) Green Fork Twins/Frey/Ballpark at the Crossing, 3) Blackwood Ravens/Blackwood/Raventree Hall, 4) Stone Hedge Stallions/Bracken/Stone Hedge Field(?), 5) Wayfarer's Rest Lookouts/Vance/???, 6) Maidenpool Sockeyes/Mooton/Jonquil's Tower, 7) Darry Plowmen/Darry/Plowman's Keep, 8) Pinkmaiden Dancers/Piper/???

Iron Isles:  1) Pyke Krakens/Greyjoy/Bloody Keep, 2) Harlaw Reapers/Harlaw/Ten Towers(?), 3) Hammerhorn Blasters/Goodbrother/Hardstone Park, 4) Old Wyk Necromancers/Drumm/Red Rain Park, 5) Seaguard Eagles/Mallister/Booming Tower, 6) Greywater Lizards/Reed/Moat Cailin, 7) Fair Isle Silver Ships/Farman/Faircastle, 8) Orkwood Raiders/Hoare/????

Rock:  1) Lannisport Lions/Lannister/Casterly Rock, 2) Castamere Red Cats/Reyne/The Mineshaft(?), 3) Crakehall Brindled Boars/Crakehall/Fierce Field, 4) Hornvale Unicorns/Brax/???, 5) Golden Tooth Nuggets(?)/Lefford/???, 6) Ashemark Smokejumpers/Marbrand/???, 7) Silverhill Peacocks/Serrett/???, 8) Banefort Hooded Men/Banefort/????

Reach:  1) Highgarden Florists/Gardener/Three Singers Park, 2) Oldtown Beacons/Hightower/Vigilance Park, 3) Arbor Vintners/Redwyne/Ryamsport Field, 4) Old Oak Leafs/Oakheart/Deeproots Park, 5) Goldengrove Rangers/Rowan/Northmarch Park, 6) Horn Hill Huntsmen/Tarly/Heartsbane Park, 7) Brightwater Foxes/Florent/Brightwater Keep, 8) Starpike Orange Cloaks/Peake/????

Stormlands:  1) Storm's End Stags/Durrandon/Godsgrief Park, 2) King's Landing Dragons/Targaryen/The Red Keep, 3) Driftmark Tides/Velaryon/High Tide Park, 4) Tarth Evenstars/Tarth/Evenfall Hall, 5) Blackhaven Lightning/Dondarrion/???, 6) Stonehelm Swans/Swann/Slayne Park, 7) Duskendale Diamonds/Darklyn/Dun Fort, 8) Greenstone Turtles/Estermont/???, 

Dorne:  1) Sunspear Rebels (Unbrokens?)/Martell/Old Palace, 2) Yronwood Guardians (Royals?)/Yronwood/Boneway Yard, 3) Skyreach Blue Hawks/Fowler/Prince's Pass Park, 4) Starfall Comets/Dayne/Dawn Park, 5) Sandstone Scorpions/Qorgyle/Deep Dunes, 6) Brimstone Blaze/Uller/The Hellholt, 7) Red Dunes Leopards/Vaith/Vaith Field, 8) Nightsong Nightingales/Caron/Singing Towers

 

Others considered/final cuts:  Widow's Watch Whitecaps/Flint, Bear Island Cubs/Mormont, White Knife Executioners/Cerwyn, Feastfires Oxen/Prester, Deep Den Badgers/Lydden, Sharp Point Swordfish/Bar Emmon, Cape Wrath Griffins/Connington, Rainwood Blue Storm/Wylde, Blackmont Vultures, Kingsgrave Assassins/Manwoody

 

[Nittanian]

13 hours ago, Lord of Brewtown said:

So, looking for some help here.  Creating a fictional OOTP baseball league based on Westeros.  Game allows you to change name generation file and cities/countries.  8 divisions of 8 teams - I'm generally looking for the 8 best houses to use from each region - taking some liberties based on names/what works.  So, who am I missing, or should I replace with another house (team/owner), or home park?  Or move divisions?  Team/House/Ballpark:

It would be tough for me to exclude Harrenhal; I would use the Whents (or Strongs or Lothstons) instead of the Pipers. The Hoares came from Orkmont (Orkwood is a house). With the Martells, you could just call them the Sunspear Unbroken (likewise the Yronwoods could be the Yronwood Bloodroyal).

[Lord of Brewtown]

9 hours ago, Nittanian said:

It would be tough for me to exclude Harrenhal; I would use the Whents (or Strongs or Lothstons) instead of the Pipers. The Hoares came from Orkmont (Orkwood is a house). With the Martells, you could just call them the Sunspear Unbroken (likewise the Yronwoods could be the Yronwood Bloodroyal).

Thanks.  I always screw up Orkmont/Orkwood.  I've gone back and forth on Harrenhal (if I should use/and if so what arms for uniforms).  Thought about Hoare for Harrenhal; but, that kind of screws up geography of divisions.  Like the Unbroken for Sunspear!  

I think my last spots were probably Darry, Piper, Estermont, Banefort, Vaith.  Any Omitted Houses that you'd replace any of them with (after Harrenhal)?  

[Syl of Syl]

On 3/1/2019 at 8:30 PM, Lord of Brewtown said:

I think my last spots were probably Darry, Piper, Estermont, Banefort, Vaith.  Any Omitted Houses that you'd replace any of them with (after Harrenhal)?

I'd move Mallister to the Trident division to replace Darry. Also, if you put the Greywater Lizards in the North in place of the Rills, you can include Blacktyde and Lonely Light in an all Isles division. My suggestions are the Blacktyde Black Tides and for Lonely Light Sunset or Sea Lions if you prefer an animal mascot.

And a suggestion if you want to include Harrenhal as well to replace both Darry and Piper with the team from Seaguard and one from Harrenhal - Littlefinger is the lord of Harrenhal in name, but the castle is in the hands of Bonifer Hasty and his Holy Hundred - how about the Harrenhal Holy Hundred?

I guess baseball season started already, so these suggestions are a little late...

 

[Syl of Syl]

On 2/10/2019 at 12:49 PM, Lord of Brewtown said:

Conjecture; but, I would put them on a tier with House Uller.  I don't really think of the houses as far as strict rankings; but, more on tiers. For Dorne:  

 Tier 1:  Martell, Yronwood, Fowler, Dayne

Tier2A:  Uller, Qorgyle, Vaith, Gargalen

Tier2B:  Blackmont, Wyl, Manwoody, Allyrion

Tier3:  Toland, Jordayne, Ladybright, Wells, Dalt, Santagar, Drinkwater

Agreed. Tiers is the way I think about it too more or less. From generation to generation, these things are changeable at a certain level, but we see certain houses that have maintained a level of power over the centuries and even millennia. Yronwood, Fowler and Dayne definitely seem to be the principal powers after Martell. They were petty kings of significant power before Nymeros Martell consolidate the Kingdom of Dorne and they've maintained a high standing through the centuries. Qorgyle, Uller and Allyrion all have some association with the Red Viper (he was fostered at Sandstone, Ellaria Sand is the bastard daugher of the Lord of Hellholt and the Bastard of Godsgrace was Oberyn's squire), so I think that gives them some temporary standing but without other information its hard to do anything but throw the rest into a big tier together.

Another thing that I think is very important to note is that a House's standing will depend in large part on the actual people who make up that house. For example, House Piper seemed like a pretty important house during a Game of Thrones, but they don't seem to have much historical import. Their standing amongst Riverland lords was mostly due to Marq Piper's friendship with Edmure Tully. We see a similar dynamic with Addam Marbrand and Jaime Lannister. These are second tier houses, but they are enjoying a time in the limelight because of the qualities of the people who make up the family. By contrast, look at House Banefort who seem like they were once the Boltons of the Westerlands but don't really seem to be a house of significance by the time of the series. House Tarly is another good example to look at. They are waxing powerful because of Randyll Tarly's qualities as a leader. If he gets killed, will Dickon wield that same sort of influence and power? Maybe eventually, but it would be a major blow to the house.

Or for a more extreme example, look at Stark. Robb was briefly the King of the North and the Trident - ruling over more land and people than any Stark in history - but now they don't even hold Winterfell. Who is the most powerful Stark right now? Or going to the other extreme, look at the power Littlefinger wields despite the fact that House Baelish has basically no history of wielding any sort of power. He's certainly a powerful player in Westeros, but his house is insignificant. They have no history and if he dies, his house dies with him. So how do you rank House Baelish?

 

[Lord of Brewtown]

On 4/10/2019 at 10:05 PM, Syl of Syl said:

I'd move Mallister to the Trident division to replace Darry. Also, if you put the Greywater Lizards in the North in place of the Rills, you can include Blacktyde and Lonely Light in an all Isles division. My suggestions are the Blacktyde Black Tides and for Lonely Light Sunset or Sea Lions if you prefer an animal mascot.

And a suggestion if you want to include Harrenhal as well to replace both Darry and Piper with the team from Seaguard and one from Harrenhal - Littlefinger is the lord of Harrenhal in name, but the castle is in the hands of Bonifer Hasty and his Holy Hundred - how about the Harrenhal Holy Hundred?

I guess baseball season started already, so these suggestions are a little late...

On 4/10/2019 at 10:05 PM, Syl of Syl said:

I'd move Mallister to the Trident division to replace Darry. Also, if you put the Greywater Lizards in the North in place of the Rills, you can include Blacktyde and Lonely Light in an all Isles division. My suggestions are the Blacktyde Black Tides and for Lonely Light Sunset or Sea Lions if you prefer an animal mascot.

And a suggestion if you want to include Harrenhal as well to replace both Darry and Piper with the team from Seaguard and one from Harrenhal - Littlefinger is the lord of Harrenhal in name, but the castle is in the hands of Bonifer Hasty and his Holy Hundred - how about the Harrenhal Holy Hundred?

I guess baseball season started already, so these suggestions are a little late...

 

 

Not too late, it's a fictional league, & I'm still setting up/re-organizing to get the fictional names generated to the correct teams (example don't want Bolton's on Winterfell unless they have high greed or low loyalty character traits, or are 'rookies' = squiring or a ward).  

I did end up replacing Greenstone with the Rainwood Blue Storm (House Wylde seems to have more historical mentions), and Pinkmaiden with the Harrenhal Bats (I'm picking a starting point with team owners from roughly the 220-230 AC period, and House Lothston held Harrenhal for a pretty good stretch).  

I'm sticking with Seaguard in the Isles because I like the rivalry concept vs those teams, and once I get past House Drumm, the other houses are either a bit too small and/or don't have a compelling name combo.  

 

What I can really still use are suggestions for some names:  specifically Ironoaks (House Waynwood).  Black Wheels is kind of meh.   I almost replaced them with the Old Anchor Mud Hooks for name alone, but House Melcolm has had zero mentions in the books.  

Am open to better names for Redfort (Highlanders), Heart's Home (Deceivers), Gulltown (Flames), Rills (Outriders), and Starpike (Orange Cloaks) as well.   'Insert color here" Cloaks may have to be my fallback similar to White Sox/Red Sox in MLB here if I can't come up with something better.  

[McGuv19]

For the westerlands I am making only top 6 so apologies if it’s short I will be making a second part. 

1. Lannisters are the obvious choice for the top spot, as they are the richest house in Westeros, due to controlling the city of Lannisport and the gold mine of Casterly Rock. They are also have a strong navy, commanding 20-30 ships at Lannisport. During the sack of kings landing Tywin led 15,000 Lannister men. 

2. House Crakehall of Crakehall. As Crakehall is situated near the Ocean Road and most Westerlands houses are reasonably rich barring house westerling, House Crakehall is probably quite wealthy. It is also likely that they have a strong military, as Crakehall men are traditionally fierce fighters. Also Ser Burton Crakehall was noted as commanding a column of troops that were slain by Beric Dondarrion. From what I know of military formation there were probably 450-1000 men just under his command, as a coloumn is usually a battalion of soldiers. House Crakehall has Lord Roland, his three sons who are knights, and Ser Burton his brother. So if we assume that each of those five has a column of his own plus a few extra troops to remain on the Crakehall for defence during wartime their strength could be estimated as 2500-5500.

3. House Brax of Hornvale. Not much is known about house Brax other than what we hear of them from accounts of battles. Their lord Andros is thought by Tyrion to be stupid as he drowns due his armour being too heavy. However Ser Flement Brax is an accomplished warrior, possibly riding in the Hand’s tourney, being part of Prince Oberyn’s guard, and commanding the outriders of the Lannister host. Lord Brax’s other sons and his brother are knights as well. House Brax seems to be one of the most powerful houses in the Westerlands as they are one of the houses first honoured after the Battle of the Blackwater.

4. House Clegane. Although not that wealthy house clegane have produced some of the best warriors in Westeros, the brothers Gregor and Sandor. House Clegane’s soldiers are chosen for their skill at arms and brute strength, making them a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield.

5/6. Lefford and Lydden. Both very similar. House lefford is probably richer as they own golden Tooth but house lydden was honoured more after the Battle of the Blackwater. House Lydden may have a better lord as he is still alive and Lord Leo Lefford drowned at the Stone Mill.

[dsjj251]

On 2/4/2019 at 7:05 AM, Lord Varys said:

A ranking aside from, perhaps, the first couple of houses after the paramount house makes no sense since we have insufficient data to do this. And even with those houses we only have sufficient data for the Riverlands during the Dance, thanks to Gyldayn. One assumes that the Butterwells had an equally powerful position in TMK as the Freys did at the time, considering the size of the lands and the wealth they control at that time.

The difference between the Tyrells and the Tullys is obvious, and is explicitly and implicitly referred during the Conquest and the Dance. The Tullys were only made lords paramount by Aegon I. He did not extend their lands or increase their incomes. They had to make due with what the Riverrun and their traditional lands gave them, and there are multiple houses in the Riverlands who control larger lands than the Tullys, and some who have greater incomes.

Harrenhal was the royal seat of the Riverlands at that point, and it seems as if the Qorgyles and later the Harroways (who controlled the Hoare lands in addition to their ancestral lands around Lord Harroway's Town) were by far the most powerful houses in the Riverlands. Maegor did not grant the Harroways holdings to Walton Towers but split them up between the Towers, the Darrys, and the Butterwells. Might be the Strongs brought in their own lands, too, making the holdings of Harrenhal somewhat larger again. How much land Lucas Lorthston got when he was made Lord of Harrenhal remains to be seen.

The Tyrells, on the other hand, were granted the royal seat of Highgarden with all its lands and incomes, meaning they were made the richest and most powerful lords of the Reach in a single stroke. House Gardener was the most powerful house in the Reach.

In that sense, we have no reason to believe the Hightowers control greater lands than the Tyrells. In fact, if this were the case then the obvious power Mace Tyrell exerts over his bannermen would be based completely on an illusion.

 

 

World of Ice and fire says 

Quote

So it was that, when Aegon the Conqueror marched upon Harrenhal, the Tullys of Riverrun were the most powerful of Riverlords

This passage also says they are very wealthy as well on their own. 

 

Also, I see nothing that claims the Tyrells are somehow more powerful, at least not in the way you claim.  Especially since we actually see 4 separate rebellions in the Reach where the Tyrells were technically on the opposite side of their most powerful bannermen. 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

World of Ice and fire says 

This passage also says they are very wealthy as well on their own. 

That seems to be wrong if we take FaB into account. That's the passage about how the Brackens and Blackwoods got weakened before, no? Then it could also reflect merely a temporary weakness, caused by a devastation of the lands of other lords, etc.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Also, I see nothing that claims the Tyrells are somehow more powerful, at least not in the way you claim.  Especially since we actually see 4 separate rebellions in the Reach where the Tyrells were technically on the opposite side of their most powerful bannermen. 

Which do you mean here? It is quite clear that the Tyrells are the Gardeners 2.0 insofar as the lands and incomes attached to Highgarden are concerned. All they are lacking is the standing of the Gardeners because of their humble origins. That's their problem and that's why the old elites of the Reach continue to look down on them throughout the first century and perhaps later still.

But by the time of the main series they are heavily intermarried with those elites - which is a significant and noteworthy change. I mean, think of Manfryd Redwyne dismissing his liege lords as 'dolts' in front of his king, and Mace Tyrell being the son of a Redwyne, his sister being married to her Redwyne first cousin and Mace himself being married to a daughter of the Lord of Oldtown.

[dsjj251]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That seems to be wrong if we take FaB into account. That's the passage about how the Brackens and Blackwoods got weakened before, no? Then it could also reflect merely a temporary weakness, caused by a devastation of the lands of other lords, etc.

We honestly dont know which passage is the truth.  You could make arguments either way. I would say the defining reason to believe Woiaf over FaB is the fact that the Tullys are indeed Lords Paramount of the Trident.  It would make no sense to put the 6th most powerful House in a region in charge of it. 

Quote

Which do you mean here? It is quite clear that the Tyrells are the Gardeners 2.0 insofar as the lands and incomes attached to Highgarden are concerned. All they are lacking is the standing of the Gardeners because of their humble origins. That's their problem and that's why the old elites of the Reach continue to look down on them throughout the first century and perhaps later still.

But by the time of the main series they are heavily intermarried with those elites - which is a significant and noteworthy change. I mean, think of Manfryd Redwyne dismissing his liege lords as 'dolts' in front of his king, and Mace Tyrell being the son of a Redwyne, his sister being married to her Redwyne first cousin and Mace himself being married to a daughter of the Lord of Oldtown.

My problem with your argument is that the story somewhat establishes that a Lord Paramount is not the same as a former king, in that a king is not simply the highest ranking of many lords in a region,  but the  actual lord .  Where as a Lord Paramount is simply the Kings messenger, Entrusted with gathering the crowns taxes,settling disputes or gathering armies during war. 

It doesnt look like Aegon gave them power equal to the Starks or Arryns, or Lannisters or Martells who were all royalty in their own right.  

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

We honestly dont know which passage is the truth.  You could make arguments either way. I would say the defining reason to believe Woiaf over FaB is the fact that the Tullys are indeed Lords Paramount of the Trident.  It would make no sense to put the 6th most powerful House in a region in charge of it. 

If I remember correctly - and I am if the quote you gave comes from this discussion of relative Tully strength compared to the other great houses of the Riverlands during the time of Hoare reign - then this entire thing there was one of the ideas @Ran and @Linda George adopted for TWoIaF. Insofar as it contradicts Gyldayn's detailed description of the Tullys in the first century of Targaryen I'd always go with Gyldayn's text.

And I'm inclined to believe that Ran also doesn't really see a contradiction here. In that sense the Tullys were only relatively stronger than the Brackens/Blackwoods shortly before the Conquest.

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

My problem with your argument is that the story somewhat establishes that a Lord Paramount is not the same as a former king, in that a king is not simply the highest ranking of many lords in a region,  but the  actual lord .  Where as a Lord Paramount is simply the Kings messenger, Entrusted with gathering the crowns taxes,settling disputes or gathering armies during war.

It doesnt look like Aegon gave them power equal to the Starks or Arryns, or Lannisters or Martells who were all royalty in their own right.  

Oh, it seems the former kings (and the Baratheon lords of Storm's End) do not wield the title 'lord paramount' but there doesn't seem to be a difference in rank or authority. But there certainly is a pretty big difference in prestige. The Starks, Arryns, Martells, and especially the Lannisters seem to have a much greater prestige with their subjects and subsequently more informal authority due to their status as former kings who ruled their domains for millennia (and the Lannisters due to their enormous, impregnable castle and their enormous wealth).

[Syl of Syl]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, it seems the former kings (and the Baratheon lords of Storm's End) do not wield the title 'lord paramount' but there doesn't seem to be a difference in rank or authority. But there certainly is a pretty big difference in prestige. The Starks, Arryns, Martells, and especially the Lannisters seem to have a much greater prestige with their subjects and subsequently more informal authority due to their status as former kings who ruled their domains for millennia (and the Lannisters due to their enormous, impregnable castle and their enormous wealth).

Even though the titles of Lord Paramount of the Westerlands, the North, the Vale etc. are not explicitly mentioned anywhere, I imagine that is a title that Lannister, Stark and Arryn could claim. The fact is that the Stark in the North is enough to command the allegiance of the lords of the North and likewise in other regions. These older great houses derive allegiance based on legacy, whereas the Tullys and Tyrells (and Baratheons as well to a certain extent) initially derived their power directly from the crown - hence the necessity for the explicit title of Lord Paramount of the Trident or the Mander. However, it means the same thing. It's even mentioned in FaB when Aegon allows the Ironborn to choose their own lord paramount. 

 

[dsjj251]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If I remember correctly - and I am if the quote you gave comes from this discussion of relative Tully strength compared to the other great houses of the Riverlands during the time of Hoare reign - then this entire thing there was one of the ideas @Ran and @Linda George adopted for TWoIaF. Insofar as it contradicts Gyldayn's detailed description of the Tullys in the first century of Targaryen I'd always go with Gyldayn's text.

And I'm inclined to believe that Ran also doesn't really see a contradiction here. In that sense the Tullys were only relatively stronger than the Brackens/Blackwoods shortly before the Conquest.

 

Logic dictates that Aegon chose someone strong enough to hold the Riverlands.  At the moment of conquest, the Tullys were that, im not debating if the Brackens or Blackwoods bounced back, only that the Tullys were probably not 6th at any point in time after that on  a depth chart.

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Logic dictates that Aegon chose someone strong enough to hold the Riverlands.  At the moment of conquest, the Tullys were that, im not debating if the Brackens or Blackwoods bounced back, only that the Tullys were probably not 6th at any point in time after that on  a depth chart.

Nobody ever said that the Tullys were weak. They were just nowhere near the strongest or wealthiest Riverlords. They were, though, undoubtedly the leaders of the pro-Targaryen movement in the Riverlands. They owe their exalted rank and reward to Edmyn Tully's courage to declare for the Conqueror and openly defy Black Harren first.

It is noteworthy, though, that Aegon did not grant Harrenhal - a royal seat of great prestige - not the Edmyn Tully but rather to his old master-at-arms. Here you can see that he did not trust the Tullys all that far, at least not back then. Rewarding Harlan Tyrell the way he did can be counted as a master stroke because the Tyrells were, for centuries, completely dependent of the good will and support of the Targaryen kings to keep the great seat of Highgarden because the old elite of the Reach looked down on them and were of the opinion that they had all a better claim to Highgarden than the Tyrells.

1 hour ago, Syl of Syl said:

Even though the titles of Lord Paramount of the Westerlands, the North, the Vale etc. are not explicitly mentioned anywhere, I imagine that is a title that Lannister, Stark and Arryn could claim. The fact is that the Stark in the North is enough to command the allegiance of the lords of the North and likewise in other regions. These older great houses derive allegiance based on legacy, whereas the Tullys and Tyrells (and Baratheons as well to a certain extent) initially derived their power directly from the crown - hence the necessity for the explicit title of Lord Paramount of the Trident or the Mander. However, it means the same thing. It's even mentioned in FaB when Aegon allows the Ironborn to choose their own lord paramount. 

Yeah, it is pretty much identical although it is also clear that the former royal houses (that is, those royal houses who were overthrown by Aegon the Conqueror) all have more prestige than the new lord paramounts. Baratheon prestige is very high, too, as we can see in FaB. They draw it from the fact that they are descended from the Durrandons of old through the female line and, more importantly, from the Targaryens themselves through Lord Aerion's bastard son, Orys Baratheon. And it is quite clear that being related closes to the royal house is what made you the most prestigious house in the Realm. The Velaryons and Baratheons basically were the first and second house in the Realm behind the Targaryens themselves, followed by the Hightowers, and then by the former royal houses and lords paramount starting with the Lannisters and Arryns.

Personal power/wealth/splendor is trumped by closeness to the throne/royal family. And this actually seems to be the thing that really vexed the Lannisters throughout the Targaryen reign. They were just as good as their kings, with a larger castle and greater wealth, but they were sidelined still.