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Do you think Victarion Greyjoy is a psycopath?


Alexander Leonard

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13 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Lol the dusky woman. How about killing his wife because his brother fucked her, or wearing full plate armor on a ship because he didn't fear drowning, simply the number of people he killed. 

 

That was a honour killing, something quite common in few particular cultures in real life. Doesn't mean people of these cultures are psychopaths. It just means that a person can do many wicked things if he believes he is doing what's right. Remember the Nazis also. The whole country went nuts because of massive propaganda efforts, doesn't mean they all somehow became psychopaths, that just means that unfortunately you can convince people that doing completely evil things is the right thing to do.

Victarion is the same. He grew up in an extremely toxic culture that taught him that the way he acts is how a man should act, and hence he tries to be a good man Ironborn-style.

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No, Victarion is not a psychopath.

The Iron Born are like pirates or vikings or marauders. Theirs is a male dominated civilization with an abundance of testosterone.

Killing, raping, reaving and earning the iron price.

Once Euron is proclaimed the leader by the majority, Vic who is the captain of the Iron Fleet, falls in line.

Vic's mission given to him by Euron is to bring Euron the Dragon Queen. Vic has other plans. Vic thinks to make the Dragon Queen his own.

Sooooo, rather than place some pathetic description to a book character whatcha think is gonna happen?

Basically where the reader is left at the end of DwD is Drogon has whisked Dany away. The Ironborn have arrived At Meereen.

 

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6 hours ago, Dofs said:

That was a honour killing, something quite common in few particular cultures in real life. Doesn't mean people of these cultures are psychopaths. It just means that a person can do many wicked things if he believes he is doing what's right. Remember the Nazis also. The whole country went nuts because of massive propaganda efforts, doesn't mean they all somehow became psychopaths, that just means that unfortunately you can convince people that doing completely evil things is the right thing to do.

Victarion is the same. He grew up in an extremely toxic culture that taught him that the way he acts is how a man should act, and hence he tries to be a good man Ironborn-style.

He killed his wife over the misdeeds of his brother. toxic culture or no, he made a choice and still follows his brother. He has no moral compass. He is a psycho. Perhaps not as psycho as his brother, but psycho nonetheless 

 

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10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He killed his wife over the misdeeds of his brother. toxic culture or no, he made a choice and still follows his brother.

And in real life there are places where its understandable to kill your own daughter for being raped. That's what toxic cultures do to people. Which is why they are toxic in the first place. 

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He has no moral compass.

He has a moral compass, the one that he was taught to have. And he follows it.

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8 hours ago, Dofs said:

And in real life there are places where its understandable to kill your own daughter for being raped. That's what toxic cultures do to people. Which is why they are toxic in the first place. 

Full stop. Just because this happens "in real life" does make it any less psychotic. People in real life commit all sorts of horrible actions on other people. 

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

He has a moral compass, the one that he was taught to have. And he follows it.

You are mistaking obedience with a moral compass 

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27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Full stop. Just because this happens "in real life" does make it any less psychotic. People in real life commit all sorts of horrible actions on other people. 

If it's very widespread in one culture and considered acceptable there, then the problem is not with individual people there.

27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You are mistaking obedience with a moral compass 

Obedience to whom?

That's exactly was his moral compass that he was following when he was killing his wife. It's you who are mistaken if you believe that a person's moral compass is universal and does not depend on how a person is raised.

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On 2/1/2019 at 12:21 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Lol the dusky woman. How about killing his wife because his brother fucked her,

This is, if anything, what made him a psychopath. He still hears his cries while killing his (salt) wife like Tyrion hears the crossbow or Griff hears bells.

On 2/1/2019 at 12:21 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

wearing full plate armor on a ship because he didn't fear drowning

Thats called being a rational soldier and a good sailor, what are the chances he'll slip? What are the chances some dude will drive a sword into his arm. 

On 2/1/2019 at 12:21 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

simply the number of people he killed. 

Probably less then our friends Eddard, Qhorin Halfhand, Beric, etc

On 1/31/2019 at 5:20 PM, Igziabeher said:

See: Charles Manson.

Eurons not great, but come on. Hes not kidnapping teenage girls, ok, maybe his, but hea not forcing them to drink the cid, nor is he interested in some race war... Ok, i guess he is

How bout this, Charles Manson did not warg into his brothers sex partner to get banged out in random intervals

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12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

This is, if anything, what made him a psychopath. He still hears his cries while killing his (salt) wife like Tyrion hears the crossbow or Griff hears bells.

The point is that he did it. He was willing to do it and still follows his brother

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats called being a rational soldier and a good sailor, what are the chances he'll slip? What are the chances some dude will drive a sword into his arm. 

The ignorance and idiocy of this statement is profound. Try sailing on open water for a time then revisit this 

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Probably less then our friends Eddard, Qhorin Halfhand, Beric, etc

I doubt less that Ned, but your attempt at whataboutism still falls short. Next 

 

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30 minutes ago, Dofs said:

If it's very widespread in one culture and considered acceptable there, then the problem is not with individual people there.

Individuals make the culture, including those who blindly follow. Have you killed a relative? If not then why? You make it sound quite easy and natural. 

31 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Obedience to whom?

His brother. did you read the books? 

31 minutes ago, Dofs said:

That's exactly was his moral compass that he was following when he was killing his wife. It's you who are mistaken if you believe that a person's moral compass is universal and does not depend on how a person is raised.

He was not following a moral compass.  For a moral compass you need empathy. He had none for his wife or anyone else. 

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27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The point is that he did it. He was willing to do it and still follows his brother

He regrets it. He loved her and Euron gave him horns and laughed about it, he hates being laughed at. A true psychopath would not regret it.

And hes not following his brother, he intends to keep Dany for himself

27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The ignorance and idiocy of this statement is profound. Try sailing on open water for a time then revisit this 

Profound? Try fighting battles with medival warfare. Keep your armor on. Thats rule number 1.

Quote

The third buried his own axehead in the soft pine of Victarion's shield. He slammed it into the fool's face, knocked him off his feet, and slew him when he tried to rise again. As he was struggling to free his axe from the dead man's rib cage, a spear jabbed him between the shoulder blades. It felt as though someone had slapped him on the back.

(Thats from the part where he doesnt fall and still gets a life threatening hand injury, with armor on

28 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I doubt less that Ned, but your attempt at whataboutism still falls short. Next 

I was doubting Qhorin. Its not a whatabout dude, its a fucking comparison. Vic is a soldier, soldiers kill. Not just in asoiaf, in real life. The best soldiers kill alot.

Now ill do whataboutism, he doesn't kill the defenceless on a regular like Illyn or Ned and the only murder we can pinpoint was his wife which has been imprinted in his mind ever since. 

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5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Individuals make the culture, including those who blindly follow. Have you killed a relative? If not then why? You make it sound quite easy and natural. 

So, you are saying that entire culture then can consist of psychopaths? Really? It's not that Germans became heavily influenced by Nazi propaganda, it's just loads of them became psychopaths overnight? Some psychopathy disease?

34 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

His brother. did you read the books? 

Euron ordered him to kill his wife?

35 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He was not following a moral compass.  For a moral compass you need empathy. He had none for his wife or anyone else. 

Victarion was crying for having to kill her, and was sobbing during the act. Did you read the books?

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39 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He regrets it. He loved her and Euron gave him horns and laughed about it, he hates being laughed at. A true psychopath would not regret it.

you know nothing Juan Snow 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy 
Read this before you comment again. Especially  the concepts of the triarchic model.  

42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And hes not following his brother, he intends to keep Dany for himself

He dutifully followed his brother, and technically still is with an entire fleet in Slaver's bay,  He is hoping to revenge by stealing his bride. None of this says "Hey, I'm not a psychopath" 

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Profound? Try fighting battles with medival warfare. Keep your armor on. Thats rule number 1.

I bet you know less about medieval warfare than you do about sailing,. you do not wear full plate armor on a boat at sea if you intend to live. People don't even need a weapon to kill, you. They just have to knock you off the boat :rofl:

45 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

(Thats from the part where he doesnt fall and still gets a life threatening hand injury, with armor on

Ah, I get it now. See, what you are quoting from is a "Fantasy" novel. It is a story that contains fantastic and unrealistic depictions that while divorced from reality, are enjoyed by the readers specifically because they know that such things do not exist in the real world. I hope that helps. 

47 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I was doubting Qhorin. Its not a whatabout dude, its a fucking comparison. Vic is a soldier, soldiers kill. Not just in asoiaf, in real life. The best soldiers kill alot.

It isn't a comparison. The characters are radically different. If we were just comparing kills in battle that would be one thing, but we aren't. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Now ill do whataboutism, he doesn't kill the defenceless on a regular like Illyn or Ned and the only murder we can pinpoint was his wife which has been imprinted in his mind ever since. 

Did you read the books? Remember the slaves he sacrificed? 

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

So, you are saying that entire culture then can consist of psychopaths? Really? 

No, you are. 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

It's not that Germans became heavily influenced by Nazi propaganda, it's just loads of them became psychopaths overnight? Some psychopathy disease?

Christ dude, the third reich didn't happen overnight. It happened over decades. Also, the people who pulled the triggers or flipped the switches did so because they did not have an issue with it. Naziism and it's associated attrocities did not happen in a vacuum. Anti-semitism was rampant in europe. It wasn't invented in germany.  Those horrible people who did those horrible things were already horrible, but the political climate removed a number of things that would keep that horrible shit in check to a degree. 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Euron ordered him to kill his wife?

Seriously, did you even read the books?  What did wuron do in the novels, where did he go, why did he go? Who told him to go. 
 

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Victarion was crying for having to kill her, and was sobbing during the act. Did you read the books?

Lol, tears. He still killed her

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2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No, you are. 

I was just saying what's actually happening, it's you who are naming them all psychopaths.

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Christ dude, the third reich didn't happen overnight. It happened over decades. Also, the people who pulled the triggers or flipped the switches did so because they did not have an issue with it. Naziism and it's associated attrocities did not happen in a vacuum. Anti-semitism was rampant in europe. It wasn't invented in germany.  Those horrible people who did those horrible things were already horrible, but the political climate removed a number of things that would keep that horrible shit in check to a degree. 

Wow, that's so naive. Though, it firmly explains your posts. 

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Seriously, did you even read the books?  What did wuron do in the novels, where did he go, why did he go? Who told him to go. 

Can you stop beating around the bush and tell what's your actual point? What the hell Euron's actions have anything to do with Victarion's obedience? 

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Lol, tears. He still killed her

So just because he killed her, he had no empathy for her, no matter how he actually felt, no matter what the actual text says. Amazing. And so. incredibly. naive.

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On 1/31/2019 at 3:33 PM, Alexander Leonard said:

I think so given the way he treated the dusky woman.

The opening post made reference to Vic's treatment of the dusky woman as being  psychopathic ( suffering from or constituting a chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior) ----- the incorrect term was used ---- she is viewed as an object to be used ---- she is a sex slave --- given to him by his brother. Vic didn't want her and didn't take her until Euron said she would be killed.  Martin wrote the Iron Born culture. I didn't.

A Feast for Crows - The Reaver      As a reward for his leal service, the new-crowned king had given Victarion the dusky woman, taken off some slaver bound for Lys. "I want none of your leavings," he had told his brother scornfully, but when the Crow's Eye said that the woman would be killed unless he took her, he had weakened. Her tongue had been torn out, but elsewise she was undamaged, and beautiful besides, with skin as brown as oiled teak. Yet sometimes when he looked at her, he found himself remembering the first woman his brother had given him, to make a man of him.    Victarion wanted to use the dusky woman once again, but found himself unable.

Who fits the simple description better Vic or Euron?   I have met individuals in my life that exhibit one or more of these simple criteria, doesn't make the individuals I have met psychopaths.  Sometimes people are merely egotistical, lying, manipulative, self-centered  donkeys.

    Superficial charm and glibness.
    Inflated sense of self-worth.
    Constant need for stimulation.
    Lying pathologically.
    Conning others; being manipulative.
    Lack of remorse or guilt.
    Shallow emotions.
    Callousness; lack of empathy.

Who fits the simple description better Vic or Euron?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

suffering from or constituting a chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior

she is a sex slave --- given to him by his brother

Lack of remorse or guilt.

Callousness; lack of empathy.

Isn't the way he treated the dusky woman violent enough? She might be a slave, but that doesn't mean he could do whatever he wanted to her without her consent. Did he ever feel guilty? Did he ever apologize to her? Could he feel the pain and misery on her side?

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57 minutes ago, Alexander Leonard said:

Isn't the way he treated the dusky woman violent enough? She might be a slave, but that doesn't mean he could do whatever he wanted to her without her consent. Did he ever feel guilty? Did he ever apologize to her? Could he feel the pain and misery on her side?

WTF?

One of us is not wrapped tight.

Edit: I din't write the Iron Born culture. Provide the violent quote.

 

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On 2/2/2019 at 5:18 PM, Dofs said:

I was just saying what's actually happening, it's you who are naming them all psychopaths.

we are only talking about 1 though 

On 2/2/2019 at 5:18 PM, Dofs said:

Wow, that's so naive. Though, it firmly explains your posts. 

You use a word like naive, but you have no concept of history. You think that Himmler, Goering, Goebbels and Mengele  were  good guys who just happen to fall in with a bad dude and some bad things went down. That is fucking Naive

On 2/2/2019 at 5:18 PM, Dofs said:

Can you stop beating around the bush and tell what's your actual point? What the hell Euron's actions have anything to do with Victarion's obedience? 

Vic willingly follows euron in spite of all the horrible personal things that he did. That behavior is found in sociopaths and psychopaths. If you actually knew a psychopath is, it would have been obvious. 

On 2/2/2019 at 5:18 PM, Dofs said:

So just because he killed her, he had no empathy for her, no matter how he actually felt, no matter what the actual text says. Amazing. And so. incredibly. naive.

He killed her and then still follows the man who dishonored him and "forced" him to kill his wife. 

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