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Alexander Leonard

Do you think Victarion Greyjoy is a psycopath?

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14 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

we are only talking about 1 though 

You use a word like naive, but you have no concept of history. You think that Himmler, Goering, Goebbels and Mengele  were  good guys who just happen to fall in with a bad dude and some bad things went down. That is fucking Naive

Vic willingly follows euron in spite of all the horrible personal things that he did. That behavior is found in sociopaths and psychopaths. If you actually knew a psychopath is, it would have been obvious. 

He killed her and then still follows the man who dishonored him and "forced" him to kill his wife. 

I find your replies so funny, keep it going

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On 2/4/2019 at 5:50 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

we are only talking about 1 though 

No, we weren't.

On 2/4/2019 at 5:50 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

You use a word like naive, but you have no concept of history. You think that Himmler, Goering, Goebbels and Mengele  were  good guys who just happen to fall in with a bad dude and some bad things went down. That is fucking Naive

Omg, Nazi Germany only consisted of 5 people. Not of, you know, millions.

On 2/4/2019 at 5:50 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Vic willingly follows euron in spite of all the horrible personal things that he did. That behavior is found in sociopaths and psychopaths. If you actually knew a psychopath is, it would have been obvious. 

Wait, we talking about what made Victarion kill his wife, and you just went on, started to speak about a completely different issue and then even dared to ask if I read the books? Great. I am not going to bother to answer you ever again.

On 2/4/2019 at 5:50 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

He killed her and then still follows the man who dishonored him and "forced" him to kill his wife. 

You do know that Euron is his king, right?

Edited by Dofs

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Peer pressure.    Ugly stuff.  Makes you kill your wife.  Doing what you can without flying off the rails and doing something that'd be frowned on by pirate society.  He kills lots of folks in a pirate way too.  So if you go with pirate lifestyle being insane then psycho yes, however if you say piracy is a cagey sane adaptation to thrive at the expense of others by doing away with civility because it's the fittest who survive then Vic is covered for those murders by doing his day job and kickin ass.   

He is being pushed up against the limits of workplace stress that a person can endure without having a meltdown, but who among us can't make the same claim?   He's biting back the seething rage and getting on with it, trying to finish strong by closing the Penske file in time for his quarterly review.  This is sane, with the need to blow off some steam now and then.  Same as any other whale.  I like him for employee of the month before it's all done.

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Victarion is not a psycho, but he is a terrible person, even by the standarts of Westeros he still awful.

 He let a maester be raped by his crew, he wants to do a coup d'etat against his elder brother once he reaches Daenerys, he burned people alive, he killed his wife, and the list goes on and on.

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Martin's saga is violent. At least two of martin's made up societies have extreme cultural norms. Dothraki and Iron Born.

Stepping onto my soapbox. Plucks my nerve when some twitter bug tosses out labels. Is Victorian a psychopath? If in doubt, yes, that is a snipe at the opening post.

Vic is not a psychopath. If the term is to be tossed namby pamby around, Euron is a psychopath. As illustrated in the WoW preview chapter.

spoiler in the reveal tag:

Spoiler

"You're wrong."  It was me [Euron] who taught you how to pray, little brother. Have you forgotten? I would visit your bed chamber at night when I had to much to drink. You shared a room with Urrigon high up in the seatower. I could hear you praying from outside the door. I always wondered: Were you praying that I would choose you or that I would pass you by?" Euron pressed the knife to Aeron's [Damphair] throat.

"Pray to me. Beg me to end your torment, and I will." "Not even you would dare," said the Damhair. "I am your brother. No man is more accursed than the kinslayer."   "And yet I wear a crown and you rot in chains. How is it that your Drowned God allows that when I have killed three brothers?'/

Euron named the brothers he killed and the reason he did so.

Quote

Vic willingly follows euron in spite of all the horrible personal things that he did. That behavior is found in sociopaths and psychopaths. If you actually knew a psychopath is, it would have been obvious.


No, Vic is not psycho.  If he was, Vic would have no qualms about killing Euron. Even in martin's Iron Born violent culture there are norms.

A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain      Would you have me fight the Crow's Eye? Brother against brother, ironborn against ironborn?" Euron was still his elder, no matter how much bad blood might be between them. No man is as accursed as the kinslayer./

In that same chapter Vic and Asha have a chat about the death of Vic's salt wife.

A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain      When I [Asha]  came home, Euron was gone and your new wife was dead."    "She was only a salt wife." He had not touched another woman since he gave her to the crabs. I will need to take a wife when I am king. A true wife, to be my queen and bear me sons. A king must have an heir./

Notice ^ above that Vic makes a distinction between a salt wife (getting free milk from the cow) vs a true wife. Feel free to imply your own generalizations.

In this high testosterone culture Euron fucked his brothers woman.  Euron got her preggers ---- in your face brother --- I fucked your woman --- whacha donna do bout it.

Balon knew what happened. Balon would not allow Vic to kill Euron. Vic did kill his woman. Balon banished Euron.

A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain     Balon had commanded them not to speak of it, but Balon was dead. "He [Euron] put a baby in her belly and made me do the killing. I would have killed him too, but Balon would have no kinslaying in his hall. He [Balon] sent Euron into exile, never to return . . ."    ". . . so long as Balon lived?"/

What Vic is, is Ironborn, he lives inside the norms of his martin written culture regardless of whether I agree with Vic's actions or not.

Some of the stuff martin wrote in his as of yet incomplete saga gags me.

The easy part is to place a label on a character. Take a university course. Get over it and move on.  Sadly trafficking of females and children (male or female) for the sex industry is still a major money maker in today's society.

Hells bells, it was recently pointed out to me that in at least one lordly abode in Westeros there is a book with illustrations or is that illuminations, that would make a septon blush.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Dofs said:

No, we weren't.

Vic is more than one person? wow dude, that's a reach, even by the standards of this forum 

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Omg, Nazi Germany only consisted of 5 people. Not of, you know, millions.

Nice non-reply. Go read a history book

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Wait, we talking about what made Victarion kill his wife, and you just went on, started to speak about a completely different issue and then even dared to ask if I read the books? Great. I am not going to bother to answer you ever again.

You seem easily confused. I guess I can't fault you for not following along. So it's best you don't reply. Seriously.

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

You do know that Euron is his king, right?

I thought you weren't going to reply again? 

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For me, I consider it a bit nuts that he didn't find it acceptable to kill Euron and claim the Iron Crown while they were in Lord Hewett's solar, but is cool with the idea of sailing half way around the world on a wild dragon chase - surrounded by Ironborn who might be loyal enough to Euron that they could kill Vic at any moment - just so he can eventually kill Crow's Eye and "steal his bride, as he did Vic's". 

That's not sound thinking, if you ask me. 

I don't know if he's currently a psychopath or not, but keeping company with Moqorro could certainly have a serious effect on Victarion's state of mind, if it hasn't already.

Considering he's now recognising the "power of the Red God", due to his coal black hand and Moqorro's predictions, I do wonder if Victarion will begin to question his own life long Drowned God based belief system. For a brute like Vic - who has had a pretty traumatic life of acts of murder and rape, watching several brothers die, his Lordly brother's failed rebellion , his other brother impregnating Victarion's wife and the Iron Captain's subsequent bashing in of his brides brains - finding out that the Drowned God isn't the only "true power" could finally be the tipping point. 

All of this could certainly add up to a highly traumatised mental state

 

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On 2/3/2019 at 9:50 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Vic willingly follows euron in spite of all the horrible personal things that he did. That behavior is found in sociopaths and psychopaths. If you actually knew a psychopath is, it would have been obvious. 

Barristan followed Aerys for after he started, burning and torturing people left and right.

The guy isn’t a psychopath because of it.

He like Victorian, is trying to be dutiful to the King. 

Euron is Victorien’s King, he won the Kingmoot fairly, that is why Victorien was so reluctant to oppose him initially. 

You do not have be a sociopath or psychopath to follow or obey a really bad guy. To suggest doing so is in it of itself indication of being a psychopath is absurd. 

Victorien comes from a society where brutality is applauded. He beat  a salt-wife to death after hearing of her cheating on him with Euron. That is to be expected in his society, and for most other provinces in the seven kingdom(besides Dorne), so long as he beat her to death using only six blows(the seventh being unholiest), he would  be well within his legal to do so. Expecting a person of his stature, in the type of toxic culture he was raised in to act differently is absurd. He killed a lot of people. Yeah warriors in his setting tend to do that. Not really evidence of him being a more of a psychopath than the typical warrior in a medieval society. 

The guy isn’t a Psychopath. Not every person who does really bad things is a psychopath or sociopath. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Barristan followed Aerys for after he started, burning and torturing people left and right.

Aerys did not screw Barristan's wife and then have to kill her. 

27 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He like Victorian, is trying to be dutiful to the King. 

Not at all. When Aerys was dead he became the LC of Bob's Kingsguard. And vic is planning in betraying his brother/king and taking the king's bride. Lol, Dutiful. 

29 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Euron is Victorien’s King, he won the Kingmoot fairly, that is why Victorien was so reluctant to oppose him initially. 

Vics willingness to follow the man who raped his wife shows a lack of moral compass and a lack of empathy someone he claimed to love. Both are signs of sociopaths and psychopaths. His love for killing is also a prime indication of being a psychopath. He kills LOTS of people.  and remember, he plans of betraying his king and taking his king's bride. 

36 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You do not have be a sociopath or psychopath to follow or obey a really bad guy. To suggest doing so is in it of itself indication of being a psychopath is absurd. 

This is far different than obeying to stay alive. He is willingly following his brother. He plans on killing Dany's husband and taking her as a wife by force. even when it comes to IronBorn Taboo's, he lacks a true moral compass.  He willingly makes offerings to a god other than the drowned god. Then there is that whole plan to betray his brother. 

43 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Victorien comes from a society where brutality is applauded. He beat  a salt-wife to death after hearing of her cheating on him with Euron. That is to be expected in his society, and for most other provinces in the seven kingdom(besides Dorne), so long as he beat her to death using only six blows(the seventh being unholiest), he would  be well within his legal to do so. Expecting a person of his stature, in the type of toxic culture he was raised in to act differently is absurd. He killed a lot of people. Yeah warriors in his setting tend to do that. Not really evidence of him being a more of a psychopath than the typical warrior in a medieval society. 

You really read that part weirdly. Alysanne said that because a man's wife had wronged him, he was allowed to deliver 6 blows, but not more as the seventh belonged to the stranger. It was wrong for a husband to kill his wife and the 96 blows he gave her were meted out to him  and appropriate punishment 

48 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The guy isn’t a Psychopath. Not every person who does really bad things is a psychopath or sociopath. 

He is a psychopath, and he didn't just "do a bad thing,"  He has done bad things his whole life and will continue to do so. 

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2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He is a psychopath, and he didn't just "do a bad thing,"  He has done bad things his whole life and will continue to do so. 

I’ll reiterate:Not every person who does really bad things is a psychopath or sociopath.

Bad things as in plural. Not a singular act. 

 You’re case on why Victorien is a psychopath is  just pointing to actions of his you find demonstrably immoral and saying he will continue doing bad things. 

He does not have to be a psychopath to do this. 

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You really read that part weirdly. Alysanne said that because a man's wife had wronged him, he was allowed to deliver 6 blows, but not more as the seventh belonged to the stranger. It was wrong for a husband to kill his wife and the 96 blows he gave her were meted out to him  and appropriate punishment 

And if the man beat her to death in 6 blows he wouldn’t be punished altogether. And big brutes like Victorien could do this easily. His conduct only became illegal after the sixth blow. If you think differently(that if he stopped at 6 he’d punished) explain why he wasn’t flat out executed the second the case was brought to Alyanne or declared in the wrong for the killing in it of itself? 

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

This is far different than obeying to stay alive. He is willingly following his brother.

I never said he followed his brother out of fear for his life. I never said non-psychopaths  under threat of death would follow or obey evil. It’s true, but my overall point was that following a really bad guy isn’t proof of in it of itself being a psychopath or sociopath. That is ridiculous.

 

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Both are signs of sociopaths and psychopaths

No they aren’t. 

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

His love for killing is also a prime indication of being a psychopath.

Omg, a nobleman in a medieval warrior society enjoys killing his enemies in battle. Shocking. Seriously, the man isn’t anymore of a psychopath than the typical ironborne, or most noblemen who desire glory through war.

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He kills LOTS of people

Yeah, he and Aegon I, Alyanne, Asha, Robert, Ned, Arya, Tyrion, and whole list of characters of other characters.

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He plans on killing Dany's husband and taking her as a wife by force

....What exactly do you think salt-wives are? They’re women literally taken by force by the Ironborn. Often yes, after the iron borne killed the husband. 

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

even when it comes to IronBorn Taboo's, he lacks a true moral compass.  He willingly makes offerings to a god other than the drowned god. Then there is that whole plan to betray his brother. 

The reason Aeron backs and actively encouraged Victorien to oppose Euron is because Victorien is as close as the ideal of what it means to be ironborn. We see throughout his head him showing disgust at things that go against the old way to which he always speaks with reverence and not daring to speak of kin slaying in a holy place and that was visibly disgusted with the prospect of buying and selling people and keeping their children as slaves  because it’s not the old way. Yeah Victarion plans to betray the brother whose cucked him and bragged about it knowing what Victorien would have to do to retain his honor. Oh and whose treated Victorien like shit since he’s become king. And there’s the fact Aeron(who Victorien seeing as speaking for the gods), urged him to usurp the ungodly Euron. You claim Victorien following Euron is proof of him being a psychopath while at the same time claim his plans to betray Euron, also is proof of him being a psychopath. Which is it? Is he a psychopath for following Euron whose cucked him or is he a psychopath for planning to betray Euron whose cucked and shamed him repeatedly? It can’t be both. Either he’s a psychopath for following his brother whose cucked and shamed him throughout his life or he’s a psychopath for planning on betraying the man. It can’t be both.

Victorien so far has treaded a line in terms of blasphemy. But he hasn’t crossed over yet. He set 7 courtsens out to sea on a raft on fire and allowed either the sea or fire to take them. He did this instead of straight up burning them, was because he really didn’t want to be impious. Either the drown god or the red god could claim the sacrifice as their own. It’s for them to decide.

 

 

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Aerys did not screw Barristan's wife and then have to kill her. 

So? Barristan not directly being wronged by Aerys doesn’t make him following the madman, better or worse than Victorien following Euron who personally wronged Victorien. You seem to imply it’s morally worse somehow to follow a monster who hurt you in someway, than to follow a monster who directed their cruelty to others and left you alone. Honestly, a psychopath probably would be more like to do treason when they’ve been insulted or inconvenienced in someway than they would do just seeing people who’ve no connection to being hurt.

Victorien would not cry about murdering who was in effect little more than a concubine, or feel shame as having done it years later or get outraged at the concept of selling and buying people. 

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Not at all. When Aerys was dead he became the LC of Bob's Kingsguard. And vic is planning in betraying his brother/king and taking the king's bride. Lol, Dutiful

Daenerys is not the King’s bride yet.  A person being dutiful does not mean being loyal regardless of what’s done to you by the person you’ve sworn to. Barristan is a dutiful man. But he has limits. Barristan did betray Viserys who he was honorbound to go out and find because he could not bear the prospect of serving another Aerys. Victorien tried to be dutiful to Euron. He couldn’t. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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psychopath

Dictionary result for psychopath

 
  1. a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour.
    synonyms: madman/madwoman, mad person, deranged person, maniac, lunatic, psychotic, sociopath
This doesn't fit Victarion at all.  Let's not equate dislike of Ironborn militaristic and misogynist culture with mental disorder.
 
 

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He is JERK I don't understand why so many fans like him.

 

He the who one left his men at Moat Cailin to kill by Ramsay Bolton he primrose them reinforcements. 

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 12:21 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Lol the dusky woman. How about killing his wife because his brother fucked her, or wearing full plate armor on a ship because he didn't fear drowning, simply the number of people he killed. 

 

which is it? Did Euron rape his Saltwife or seduce her?  I believe it is rape.

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 2:18 PM, Dofs said:

That was a honour killing, something quite common in few particular cultures in real life. Doesn't mean people of these cultures are psychopaths. It just means that a person can do many wicked things if he believes he is doing what's right. Remember the Nazis also. The whole country went nuts because of massive propaganda efforts, doesn't mean they all somehow became psychopaths, that just means that unfortunately you can convince people that doing completely evil things is the right thing to do.

Victarion is the same. He grew up in an extremely toxic culture that taught him that the way he acts is how a man should act, and hence he tries to be a good man Ironborn-style.

I believe that Euron rape Victorian's Salfwife

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