Shade of the evening.

[Lollygag]

18 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Those trees that Shade of the Evening is made from are one of the most underestimated mysteries of the series, IMO. (They need a name. I have suggested "Shadewoods" on several occasions, but it has never caught on.) Black trunks and blue leaves - complimentary and opposite to the red and white weirwoods.

And who are those little mini-dwarf servitors at the HotU? Are they supposed to be complimentary and opposite to the CotF? Were the Undying themselves complimentary and opposite to the Green Men of the Isle of Faces? Many people think Bloodraven contacted Euron Greyjoy when he was a boy via dream. What if was someone from the other side - the shadewood side?

I very much agree with this.

Maybe this will set off the same bells for you as it did me. 

Here, you have Qaathi, woods walkers who are CotF-like, a hero-king named Huzhor Amai (like Azor Ahai), and it chains to the Dothraki. The trees fit right into this. Heard somewhere that there's no Qarth chapter in the TWOIAF because it'd be too spoilery. 

A lot of people are aggravated about Dany spending time with the Dothraki, but I think they might know some things related to the Others, CotF, the trees, etc., through this history. Probably would need to find it at Dosh Khaleen. I think the Dothraki are starting to look tied into the story of the Others and the CotF at a deeper level that we have yet to see and no longer see them as just being muscle men for Dany. Wonder if the crones (wise women types) of Dosh Khaleen would follow Dany/Stallion that Mounts the World to Westeros? 

I'm not sure about the trees specifically, but I think there's maybe clues to be found in these part of TWOIAF regarding this. The first place I'd look is maybe is how the Tall Men were like the Zoqora, but very dark and sorcerers. Maybe that dark coloring was from the Zoqora using sorcery and they turned dark and this affected the trees too? Dunno. I'll end the stream-of-consciousness rambling now. 

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Grasslands

In the southeast the proud city-states of the Qaathi arose; in the forests to the north, along the shores of the Shivering Sea, were the domains of the woods walkers, a diminutive folk whom many maesters believe to have been kin to the children of the forest; between them could be found the hill kingdoms of the Cymmeri, the long-legged Gipps with their wicker shields and lime-stiffened hair, and the brown-skinned pale-haired Zoqora, who rode to war in chariots.

Westeros remembers their conquerors as the Sarnori, for at its height their great kingdom included all the lands watered by the Sarne and its vassals, and the three great lakes that were all that remained of the shrinking Silver Sea. They called themselves the Tall Men (in their own tongue the Tagaez Fen). Long of limb and brown of skin they were, like the Zoqora, though their hair and eyes were black as night. Warriors, sorcerers, and scholars, they traced their descent to the hero king they called Huzhor Amai (the Amazing), born of the last of the Fisher Queens, who took to wife the daughters of the greatest lords and kings of the Gipps, the Cymmeri, and the Zoqora, binding all three peoples to his rule. His Zoqora wife drove his chariot, it is said, his Cymer wife made his armor (for her people were the first to work iron), and he wore about his shoulders a great cloak made from the pelt of a king of the Hairy Men.

…

This is not the place to chronicle the events of the years and wars that followed, as the great cities of the Kingdoms of Sarnor fell piecemeal to the Dothraki. Those who wish a more detailed account are directed to Bello's The End of the Tall Men, Maester Illister's Horse Tribes, Being a Study of the Nomads of the Eastern Plains of Essos, the eastern chapters and appendices of Maester Joseth's Battles and Sieges of the Century of Blood, and Vaggoro's definitive Ruined Cities, Stolen Gods.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: Ib

All that ended two hundred years ago with the coming of the Dothraki. The horselords had hitherto shunned the forests of the northern coasts; some say this was because of their reverence for the vanished wood walkers, others because they feared their powers. Whatever the truth, the Dothraki did not fear the men of Ib. Khal after khal began to make incursions into Ibbenese territories, overrunning the farms and fields and holdfasts of the hairy men with fire and steel, putting the males to the sword whilst carrying off their wives into slavery.

 

[Lollygag]

12 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

did the bark have fungus on it

or was it succulent like cacti

wonder if an old hippie has knowledge about LSD or peyote

all in good cheer

I would like for someone to rattle my grey cells about the weirwood requiring sacrifice

 

 

Not sure we have anything about the weirwood requiring sacrifice exactly, but it’s heavily implied. Ned washing his bloody sword in the godswood and having executions by weirwoods looks like a more civilized remnant of an earlier, harsher tradition. Sort of like how the old Kings of Winter used to be harsher and harder than the more recent KitN and Lords of Winterfell. 

ACOK Jon II (Craster's mother was from White Tree)

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

 

ADWD Davos IV

"Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

 TWOW Spoiler

Spoiler

TWOW Theon I

"Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace." The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains. "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons. Give him to Lord Eddard's gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree."

 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Nope. nothing in the books about it. If the shade trees required a sacrifice, it would have been mentioned. 
The blue wine made from the bark is magical. that is it 

The Davos passage shows that they think the sacrifices to the weirwood are to the gods. Dany really does look like a sacrifice here. Blood is linked to heat and fire and life in the books, and Dany says that this is what the Undying want from her. The Undying might be like the gods/greenseers/whatever of the weirwood and if so, it works. It's debatable, though. I'm not overlooking a big sacrifice in connection to all of this though. 

ACOK Daenerys IV

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

 

 

 

Edit: more rambling: BR and Bran strike me as prisoners and so did the Undying. The Undying needed fire, life, what's connected to blood and Bran is speculated to have been given blood. The Undying and BR don't seem that different. BR could be described as Undying.

ADWD Bran III

One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. "Hodor," Bran said to him, and he felt the real Hodor stir down in his pit.

Seated on his throne of roots in the great cavern, half-corpse and half-tree, Lord Brynden seemed less a man than some ghastly statue made of twisted wood, old bone, and rotted wool. The only thing that looked alive in the pale ruin that was his face was his one red eye, burning like the last coal in a dead fire, surrounded by twisted roots and tatters of leathery white skin hanging off a yellowed skull.

A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

ACOK Daenerys IV

She is not breathing. Dany listened to the silence. None of them are breathing, and they do not move, and those eyes see nothing. Could it be that the Undying Ones were dead?

Her answer was a whisper as thin as a mouse's whisker. . . . we live . . . live . . . live . . . it sounded. Myriad other voices whispered echoes. . . . and know . . . know . . . know . . . know . . .

...

Through the indigo murk, she could make out the wizened features of the Undying One to her right, an old old man, wrinkled and hairless. His flesh was a ripe violet-blue, his lips and nails bluer still, so dark they were almost black. Even the whites of his eyes were blue. They stared unseeing at the ancient woman on the opposite side of the table, whose gown of pale silk had rotted on her body. One withered breast was left bare in the Qartheen manner, to show a pointed blue nipple hard as leather.

 

 

[Lollygag]

Ok, last one for now. 

ACOK Daenerys IV

"Queen Daenerys must enter alone, or not at all." The warlock Pyat Pree stepped out from under the trees. Has he been there all along? Dany wondered. "Should she turn away now, the doors of wisdom shall be closed to her forevermore."

…

It was darker than she would have thought under the black trees, and the way was longer. Though the path seemed to run straight from the street to the door of the palace, Pyat Pree soon turned aside. When she questioned him, the warlock said only, "The front way leads in, but never out again. Heed my words, my queen. The House of the Undying Ones was not made for mortal men. If you value your soul, take care and do just as I tell you."

…

When they reached the door—a tall oval mouth, set in a wall fashioned in the likeness of a human face—the smallest dwarf Dany had ever seen was waiting on the threshold. He stood no higher than her knee, his faced pinched and pointed, snoutish, but he was dressed in delicate livery of purple and blue, and his tiny pink hands held a silver tray. Upon it rested a slender crystal glass filled with a thick blue liquid: shade of the evening, the wine of warlocks. "Take and drink," urged Pyat Pree.

...

When she stopped, she found herself in yet another dank stone chamber . . . but this time the door opposite was round, shaped like an open mouth, and Pyat Pree stood outside in the grass beneath the trees. "Can it be that the Undying are done with you so soon?" he asked in disbelief when he saw her.

…

When she spilled out into the sun, the bright light made her stumble. Pyat Pree was gibbering in some unknown tongue and hopping from one foot to the other. When Dany looked behind her, she saw thin tendrils of smoke forcing their way through cracks in the ancient stone walls of the Palace of Dust, and rising from between the black tiles of the roof.

 

We keep seeing Pyat repeatedly connected to the trees. Dany passes under the trees to get to the Palace of Dust, and its opening is a lot like the human face of the weirwood and the door with the open mouth reminds of the mouth of the weirwood at White Tree. We see Pyat react as if he had been burned himself when the Palace of Dust burned. Pyat was connected to the trees, the Palace’s opening was like the mouth of the weirwood, so the Palace itself is part of the trees? Was Dany inside the bizarro weirwoods? Maybe the sorcery allows for a shortcut or a way around the physical connection requirement. Pyat tells Dany that the Palace of Dust wasn't made for mortal men and that she should be careful for her soul maybe not unlike BR's state.

ADWD Bran III

"Most of him has gone into the tree," explained the singer Meera called Leaf. "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know."

 Not made for mortal men. But Dany is mortal yet goes in. BR is a Blackwood bastard and Dany is half Blackwood from being inbred. Bran sees giant bats skeletons in the caves and the Undying want the dragons...

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

snip

That does not make Dany a sacrifice, It made her a resource that the undying wanted. They wanted her magic, life and dragons. The undying are not gods. And even if they were, and dany is a sacrifice to them, there is still no reason to think that the shade trees require a sacrifice to extract their magic properties. So, as to the OP, no, there are no sacrifices to the evening shade tree

 

[Lollygag]

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That does not make Dany a sacrifice, It made her a resource that the undying wanted. They wanted her magic, life and dragons. The undying are not gods. And even if they were, and dany is a sacrifice to them, there is still no reason to think that the shade trees require a sacrifice to extract their magic properties. So, as to the OP, no, there are no sacrifices to the evening shade tree

 

Don't think the Undying are gods. They look more like BR. The weirwood sacrifices that the North does and what was found at White Tree don't seem like extracting magical properties as you put it so I'm not sure that applies here either. 

Folks refer to Jojen as being sacrificed for Bran if one believes Jojen paste. Only death can pay for life sacrifices can be characterized as "a resource that x wants". And they wanted her blood too as they were biting her. 

I'm not sure what's going on here at all. Just pointing out that there actually is something that looks like a sacrifice wrapped up in all of this. 

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not sure what's going on here at all. Just pointing out that there actually is something that looks like a sacrifice wrapped up in all of this. 

I get it, there is just nothing in the books that says sacrifices are made to the shade tree. It is a resource that is harvested. That is all 

 

[Lollygag]

36 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I get it, there is just nothing in the books that says sacrifices are made to the shade tree. It is a resource that is harvested. That is all 

 

Yeah, I didn't say it was certain. Only that it's possible. Repeatedly now so not sure why you keep portraying certainty as my argument. It's possible, especially as it fits the overall connection between weirwoods and bizarro weirwoods. Are you actually maintaining that it's absolutely impossible?

 

You've not explained how "resource that is harvested" is mutually exclusive to a sacrifice. Was Jojen "harvested" but not sacrificed? Other executions under weirwoods "harvested" but not sacrificed? These sorts of things are often tied to together both in ASOIAF and real life ancient sacrifice cultures. Actually, they often go hand-in-hand in the view of the cultures who practice this. Blood sacrifice = literal harvest. The Aztecs believed their blood sacrifices nourished their gods. GRRM uses a similar structure. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

https://www.ancient.eu/Aztec_Sacrifice/

Quote

Gods then were ‘fed’ and ‘nourished’ with the sacrificed blood and flesh which ensured the continued balance and prosperity of Aztec society.

 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

49 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I get it, there is just nothing in the books that says sacrifices are made to the shade tree. It is a resource that is harvested. That is all 

 

I agree. 

[Seams]

13 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark are the two parallel characters in these novels.

For the purposes of this discussion, yes, this is a very revealing comparison. As you probably know, there are many parallel characters. Discovering these parallels is fun way to find deeper meaning in the stories.

Lollygag reminded us of the current description of Brynden Blackwood / Bloodraven:

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Seated on his throne of roots in the great cavern, half-corpse and half-tree, Lord Brynden seemed less a man than some ghastly statue made of twisted wood, old bone, and rotted wool. The only thing that looked alive in the pale ruin that was his face was his one red eye, burning like the last coal in a dead fire, surrounded by twisted roots and tatters of leathery white skin hanging off a yellowed skull.

A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

Compare this to the man encountered by Quentyn Martell and Tyrion, who appears to be on his way to fight for Dany:

The Windblown went back thirty years, and had known but one commander, the soft-spoken, sad-eyed Pentoshi nobleman called the Tattered Prince. His hair an mail were silver-grey, but his ragged cloak was made of twists of cloth of many colors, blue and grey and purple, red and gold and green, magenta and vermilion and cerulean, all faded by the sun.

...

"And now we ride," the Tattered Prince proclaimed from his huge grey warhorse, in a classic High Valyrian that was the closest thing they had to a company tongue. His stallion's spotted hindquarters were covered with ragged strips of cloth torn from the surcoats of men his master had slain. The prince's cloak was sewn together from more of the same. An old man he was, past sixty, yet he still sat straight and tall in the high saddle, and his voice was strong enough to carry to every corner of the field.

(ADwD, Chap. 25, The Windblown)

The Tattered Prince himself was seated at the table, nursing a cup of win. In the yellow candlelight his silver-grey hair seemed almost golden, though the pouches underneath his eyes were etched as large as saddlebags. He wore a brown wool traveler's cloak, with silvery chain mail glimmering underneath. . . . Quentyn approached his table. "My lord. You look different without your cloak."

"My ragged raiment?" The Pentoshi gave a shrug. "A poor thing ... yet those tatters fill my foes with fear, and on the battlefield the sight of my rags blowing in the wind emboldens my men more than any banner. And if I want to move unseen, I need only slip it off to become plain and unremarkable."

(ADwD, Chap. 60, The Spurned Suitor)

GRRM uses words to draw our attention to parallels - twisted and tattered seem to be the clues here, along with some color references. To me, it's clear that the "past sixty" Tattered Prince is to be compared to the ancient Bloodraven. The Tattered Prince is not an albino, but he is shown with a cup of wine which is one of the attributes of Bloodraven (because of the wine stain birthmark on his cheek). Bloodraven does have white hair, similar to the silver hair of the Tattered Prince.

The "master of disguise" quality described here is also consistent with Bloodraven. Others in this forum zeroed in on the character Ser Maynard Plumm, from the Dunk and Egg stories, and realized that he had been Bloodraven in disguise. I have found other instances where I believe Bloodraven was present in disguised forms. Of course, this also raises an interesting parallel with Varys, who is known to disguise himself as the undergaoler, Rugen, among other alternate identities.

Another clue about the Bloodraven / Tattered Prince parallel is wordplay around "tatter". On one hand, this word describes torn fabric. On the other hand, it is the word for a person who makes lace. Lace making has an ancient association with spiders and spider webs. So Bloodraven has his network of roots and the Tattered Prince may be associated with a network more along the lines of the Varys-related spiderweb symbolism or Myrish lace.

The Tattered Prince interacts more with Quentyn, so far, than with Dany. For Dany's arc, I do think Quentyn is a surrogate of sorts, fulfilling some (but not all) of the necessary steps in the hero's journey and then conferring those qualities on Dany when he dies in her bed: sleeping in someone else's bed in ASOIAF is sort of a skinchanging / bonding ritual. (Theon sleeps in Ned's bed; Catelyn sleeps in Lord Hoster's bed; the sword Long Claw sleeps in Jon Snow's bed, etc.) It is related, of course, to the bedding ritual which is part of a Westeros wedding ceremony.

In other words, Quentyn's journey echoes many of the characters and steps included in Bran's journey. If I'm right about Quentyn as a Dany surrogate, the magic generated by Quentyn's actions will be acquired by Dany. Bran apparently retains the magic for himself (although there may be a twist - ha!- in that story, involving Meera.) To answer the question in the OP, regarding sacrifices made to the trees with blue leaves, I think Quentyn fulfills this role at this point in Dany's arc. The wraiths in the House of the Undying may have wanted Dany's blood and body, but they got the blood and body of surrogate Quentyn's instead.

Much of this comment is a super long way of pointing out that the Shade of the Evening is almost certainly linked to the bowl of weirwood paste in Bran's story. Dany directly drinks the Shade of the Evening, so Quentyn doesn't have to take that step. He is offered food and drink by the Tattered Prince (Chap. 60, ADwD) but the conversation immediately moves on so Quentyn doesn't have to accept or reject the food. The Tattered Prince also calls Quentyn a deserter which (I believe) is a coded equivalent of the words "red trees".

The other reason for building this Bloodraven parallel in this thread is a wordplay clue that I find persuasive but which may not appeal to all readers. (Feel free to skip this entire comment if you don't believe GRRM uses wordplay to drop hints to readers.) The story of the conflict between Aegon IV and his brother, Aemon the Dragonknight, leads to the Blackfyre rebellions when Aemon champions Queen Naerys and Prince Daeron, while Aegon favors his bastard son, Daemon Blackfyre. Early in the split, there is a duel between Aemon (defending the honor of Queen Naerys) and a knight named Ser Morgil Hastwyck, who spread the king's suspicion that Aemon had fathered the crown prince. Morgil Hastwyck is a single-use character, who plays no other role in the books and whose House never appears again in the history. To me this is usually a good indication that GRRM is using the character's name to give us a clue. The hint I find compelling is an anagram:

Morgil Hastwyck = Mighty Warlocks

This may link Bloodraven to warlocks such as Pyat Pree. Of course, we then have to figure out who are the warlocks in the Aegon IV story: Aegon and Aemon? Daeron and Daemon? Bloodraven and Bittersteel? Maybe all of them as each generation plays out the same conflict over and over in slightly different ways. The most overtly warlock-like in their behaviors, however, would be Bloodraven and Bittersteel, in my opinion. That would help to confirm the link between Bloodraven and the Shade of the Evening and the House of the Undying.

The idea of conflict between warlocks might be key here. Instead of being a duplicate Bloodraven, the Tattered Prince might represent the other warlock, the team in opposition to Bloodraven. Is he Bittersteel reborn?

A few more wordplay possibilities:

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Dany passes under the trees to get to the Palace of Dust, and its opening is a lot like the human face of the weirwood and the door with the open mouth reminds of the mouth of the weirwood at White Tree.

• As Lollygag points out, Dany goes through a mouth-like door to enter the HotU, much like the mouth through which Bran and his companions passed to go beyond the Wall. In my quest for the meaning of indigo, I did play around with this phrase (also cited by Lollygag in a longer passage, above):

Through the indigo murk = King ride through mouth.

Pyat Pree said that the mouth entrance was for Dany only. Perhaps her king's blood gave her a special power to cut through the magic barrier that separates the mainstream world from the magic world.

• I see the word "pretty" as a link between the warlock and Quentyn as well as Tyrion and Sansa. Sometimes you have to accept an imperfect or foreign word or "sounds like" anagram in GRRM's system of hints, but I think Pyat Pree could be linked to Pretty Maris (part of the Windblown army of the Tattered Prince), Pretty Pig (Tyrion's "mount") and Petyr Baelish. The pig symbolism may also be part of this clue: there is a "not quite a dwarf" officer in the Windblown called The Little Pigeon. The little figure who presents Dany with the flute of Shade of the Evening has a "snoutish" face.
• If you're not yet exhausted by this literary reading of the text, I will just throw in that I still believe the burning of the House of the Undying is linked to the burning of the Winterfell library before the catspaw attack on Bran / Catelyn. In recent days, as I refreshed my memory on the details of the Tattered Prince character, whose goal is to control Pentos, I realized that his character may be linked to Septon Chayle, the librarian at Winterfell. I suspect Pentos is linked to Septon and Chayle might be GRRM wordplay on the word "lacy".

 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I agree. 

I agree too.

I disagree on banging the gavel on it being absolutely impossible especially given the parallels between the trees and Dany looking like a sacrifice and what looks a lot like an only death can pay for life swap.

It didn't used to be in the books either that Tyrion was a slave in Essos. Yet it happened. "Not in the books" and the heavily implied "never will be in the books" isn't a quality argument unless you're going after something really outlandish like LF is a lizard man from outer space. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Yeah, I didn't say it was certain. Only that it's possible. Repeatedly now so not sure why you keep portraying certainty as my argument. Especially as it fits the overall connection between weirwoods and bizarro weirwoods. Not getting the banging of the gavel. Are you actually maintaining that it's absolutely impossible?

There is no connection between the weirwoods and the shade trees other than a literary one. It is and yes, because there is nothing about it in the books, no, the trees that make shade of the evening do not receive sacrifices like the weirwood trees of westeros. No possibility, no chance. The house of the undying is gone and the readers will not see Qarth anymore in the story. The warlocks we have seen, but the shade trees are on the other side of the world from where Euron has them now. Mayhaps GRRM will write a novella about the Undying ones, but I doubt it. 

12 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You've not explained how "resource that is harvested" is mutually exclusive to a sacrifice. Was Jojen "harvested" but not sacrificed? Other executions under weirwoods "harvested" but not sacrificed?

Jojen was never harvested or sacrificed. He is depressed in a cave. Jojen paste is fan fic that comes out of nearly a decade between book releases. 
Executions under weirwoods are sacrifices as shown in Bran's look into the past, the tale of white harbor and inadvertently, Maester Luwin when he was given mercy by Osha under the heart tree. 
 

36 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

These sorts of things are often tied to together both in ASOIAF and real life ancient sacrifice cultures. Actually, they often go hand-in-hand in the view of the cultures who practice this. Blood sacrifice = literal harvest. The Aztecs believed their blood sacrifices nourished their gods. GRRM uses a similar structure. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

https://www.ancient.eu/Aztec_Sacrifice/

I get that weirwood sacrifice is well established, but since the author did not specifically mention that a sacrifice was made to the shade trees, we can safely say that none are made ever. 

 

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Not sure we have anything about the weirwood requiring sacrifice exactly, but it’s heavily implied. Ned washing his bloody sword in the godswood

merely chatting

is it possible Eddard is a godly man and the washing of his sword was an act of cleansing his soul

as in Eddard does not like passing the sentence and swinging the sword and that it is troubling to him

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

having executions by weirwoods looks like a more civilized remnant of an earlier, harsher tradition.

this is kinda iffy for me

picking things out of peoples posts can be a hit or miss

yeah, that is vague on my part

it's the best I can do for the moment

thanks

 

Edit: I didn't pay a lot attention to Dany's adventures therefore I am of the opinion that Dany's hallucinogenic experience with the juice is like Bran's experience with the paste ---- mystically seeing the past, the present and the future.

But, having poorly described my ideas, Euron's use of the juice is different than Bran or Dany's experience.

 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Dorian Martell's son said:

No possibility, no chance.

Ok GRRM. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

Just now, Lollygag said:

Ok GRRM. 

If you can find it in the books you will prove me wrong...........

[Lollygag]

42 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

If you can find it in the books you will prove me wrong...........

 

45 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I get that weirwood sacrifice is well established, but since the author did not specifically mention that a sacrifice was made to the shade trees, we can safely say that none are made ever. 

Really can't believe you said that for a number of reasons. There is no proof of possibility for someone who holds "since the author did not specifically mention that x, we can safely say that never x." Especially for this author and this series. And "safely" is not the same as 

 

45 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No possibility, no chance.

So I'm not going to try to prove the possibility to you when you refuse to see that Dany looks a lot like a sacrifice, that it's strongly hinted that the trees, Pyat, the Palace are connected, that you're certain (again, how?) that the only connection between the weirwoods and bizarro weirwoods is only a literary one (my impression is that most on this forum think the connection goes beyond just literary), can't explain why "resource to be harvested" is mutually exclusive to a sacrifice beyond changing the subject to truthfulness of Jojen paste while ignoring my overall point that it was an example showing that people generally equate them (I don't buy Jojen paste btw)...etc.

 

On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 4:14 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 12:13 PM, Impbread said:

Do the tress that make shade of the evening receive sacrifices like the weirwood trees of westeros? What does everyone think? Honestly i have no idea but i would guess so. How else could you see the future without some sort of sacrifice.

Nope. nothing in the books about it. If the shade trees required a sacrifice, it would have been mentioned. 
The blue wine made from the bark is magical. that is it 

Your original point was no sacrifice was mentioned. I pointed out that Dany was there and it looked an awful lot like a sacrifice. 

As for not seeing Qarth anymore in the story and there's nothing more to learn about this subject, I again find your certainty misinformed. 

Quote

However, in an interview with Adria's News (also reported on reddit), Elio stated that GRRM deliberately withheld information on Qarth, Meeren and Summerhall from TWAOIF. While it is easy to understand that information on Meereen and Summerhall may spoil the plot of both ASOIAF and Dunk & Egg novellas, suppressing information on Qarth's history did not seem a clear move to me.

 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Not sure we have anything about the weirwood requiring sacrifice exactly, but it’s heavily implied. Ned washing his bloody sword in the godswood

merely chatting

is it possible Eddard is a godly man and the washing of his sword was an act of cleansing his soul

as in Eddard does not like passing the sentence and swinging the sword and that it is troubling to him

I'm all for multiple meanings. I really love this a lot. Kind of like a baptism or a confession. Perfect for Ned. Def don't think Ned thought of it as a sacrifice. 

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

having executions by weirwoods looks like a more civilized remnant of an earlier, harsher tradition.

this is kinda iffy for me

picking things out of peoples posts can be a hit or miss

yeah, that is vague on my part 

it's the best I can do for the moment

thanks

 

Edit: I didn't pay a lot attention to Dany's adventures therefore I am of the opinion that Dany's hallucinogenic experience with the juice is like Bran's experience with the paste ---- mystically seeing the past, the present and the future.

But, having poorly described my ideas, Euron's use of the juice is different than Bran or Dany's experience.

 

By itself, I agree.

It's that it fits an overall pattern of sacrifice and that's how things like that tend to work in real life which tilts the scales for me. Sorta like how our modern Christmas tree started out a pagan solstice ritual. Easter eggs are derived from an old fertility/springtime traditions that became juxtaposed with the Resurrection. I consider a lot of Westeros' habits may be telling of things that happened long ago. The Royces' armor with the runes that they seem to have forgotten is a big one. I wonder what they forgot. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

40 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Your original point was no sacrifice was mentioned. I pointed out that Dany was there and it looked an awful lot like a sacrifice. 

My original point was that there was no sacrifice to the shade tree mentioned and I am correct. That was the point of the OP. The undying are not tree bound like Bloodraven and eventually Bran. The shade trees are merely a magical resource.
Now, the undying consuming dany for her powers does seem to be a sacrifice. but it isn't to a tree 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

My original point was that there was no sacrifice to the shade tree mentioned and I am correct. That was the point of the OP. The undying are not tree bound like Bloodraven and eventually Bran. The shade trees are merely a magical resource.
Now, the undying consuming dany for her powers does seem to be a sacrifice. but it isn't to a tree 

I'm going with the long list of connections and parallels in the books and not ruling out the possibility yet especially in the face of more info forthcoming. I also choose to acknowledge the difference between the certainty I can have of an event like Ned's head getting chopped off and the level of certainty I can claim of an hallucinogenic vision. 

I'm not convinced by posters who claim certainty in knowing what's not yet published.  I'm also not overlooking how GRRM loves to tell tales only in part and hold back crucial info for later, nor that Qarth is part of this held back info. Cause it's not like he never does that or anything.

 

[Lollygag]

Dany sees Pyat step out from under the trees and asks if he's been there all along. It likens Pyat to BR, Bran, etc. Dany asking this is a prompt to the reader to ask this same question in a more serious way. Maybe he really is there all of the time. 

ACOK Daenerys IV

"Queen Daenerys must enter alone, or not at all." The warlock Pyat Pree stepped out from under the trees. Has he been there all along? Dany wondered. "Should she turn away now, the doors of wisdom shall be closed to her forevermore."

Pyat has blue lips and is implied to live under the trees permanently but is also present in a more real way, though not always so real as a normal person. The Undying are much bluer than Pyat and seem unable to leave, and don't function like Pyat. The Undying strike me as what Pyat will become like Bran will become like BR and the rest. Does the varying blueness indicate the level of connection to the trees like the thoroughness of connection to the roots? Only Pyat's mouth is blue, mouth as a gateway to the trees. But the Undying are all blue as BR is thoroughly run through by roots. Are they actually the trees as BR is nearly so just with a different connection type? 

ADWD Bran III

"Most of him has gone into the tree," explained the singer Meera called Leaf. "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know."

Dany sees Pyat under the trees, she then walks under the trees again (it's dark) to the door/mouth of the Palace of Dust. Implied is the undergroundness that we see with BR and Bran. She compares it to a face like we see in a weirwood tree. White tree cast its sacrifices into the mouth. The imagery says Dany herself is going into the trees where the Undying live. Dany burns the Palace of Dust but Pyat, outside, burns too. He's always under the trees, and also in the Palace of Dust with the Undying? Looks like a weirnet-type connection outside the roots themselves. 

I wonder at the presence of sorcery and why the trees look different and sorcery being used to by-pass the physical connection requirement for a psychic one or something (lots of psychic connections in the series: wargs, skinchangers, Others' control over the wights) would be a means to create a different connection which is less of a handicap, at least for a while. 

Sorcery being used for a not-physical connection to the trees would explain their being black and blue, like a bruise. It would also explain the weirdness of Dany's visions compared to Bran's. Are they sick trees? Wrong trees? Sorcery is known to warp in this world. Practitioners are often describes as squat, short, hinting at a worsening appearance over time. Cersei makes a more literal connection. The Palace of Dust is hardly a picture of strength. 

AFFC Cersei VIII

The old woman's eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile. In Lannisport it was said that she had been young and beautiful when her husband had brought her back from the east with a load of spices, but age and evil had left their marks on her. She was short, squat, and warty, with pebbly greenish jowls. Her teeth were gone and her dugs hung down to her knees. You could smell sickness on her if you stood too close, and when she spoke her breath was strange and strong and foul. "Begone," she told the girls, in a croaking whisper.

 TWOW Spoiler

Spoiler

This would explain the value of Pyat and shade of the evening to Euron. He's suspected of being a BR flunky. Getting lost in the weirnet is likened to losing oneself like to a drug. Shade of the evening might connect Euron back to the trees as he's suspected to have been before. It would just be a different set of trees and one which allows him freedom from the weirwood's caves and roots. 

[Impbread]

On 2/1/2019 at 12:52 PM, jthurman14 said:

I do not recall any direct mention of sacrifice to the trees. My impression was that it made slaves of those who use it in exchange for magical abilities. An addiction metaphor of sorts.  However in the house of the undying they were obviously trying to steal Danys life force, one could infer it was being given to the trees as a sacrifice. 

This. It seems that the undying need other peoples life force to live on. Perhaps they first see through the trees and eventually can see beyond? IDK just curious that NO ONE ever mentions these trees.