Poll: Is Daario actually Euron?

[Clegane'sPup]

2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Then what is the basis of your claim that Daario is wooing Dany at the same time that Euron is wooing the Ironborn?  How did you coordinate these events chronologically?

Cat received word that Balon died in SoS.

Euron was home in SoS. If you notice the below FfC quote is referencing Cat's SoS reference to Balon's death.

A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's Daughter   "Three years away, and the Crow's Eye returns the very day my father dies."   "The day after, we had heard. Silence was still out to sea when Balon died, or so it is claimed. Even so, I will agree that Euron's return was . . . timely, shall we say?"/

Dany first meets Daario in SoS.

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV          and Daario Naharis was flamboyant even for a Tyroshi. His beard was cut into three prongs and dyed blue, the same color as his eyes and the curly hair that fell to his collar. His pointed mustachios were painted gold. His clothes were all shades of yellow; a foam of Myrish lace the color of butter spilled from his collar and cuffs, his doublet was sewn with brass medallions in the shape of dandelions, and ornamental goldwork crawled up his high leather boots to his thighs. Gloves of soft yellow suede were tucked into a belt of gilded rings, and his fingernails were enameled blue.

12 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

How did you coordinate these events chronologically? 

Apparently I cannnot meet your required standard.

I personally became verra annoyed when reading the saga the first time --- I had to flip back and forth between pages and pov's while scratching my head and asking myself WTF just happened.

 

[Platypus Rex]

3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Cat received word that Balon died in SoS.

Euron was home in SoS. If you notice the below FfC quote is referencing Cat's SoS reference to Balon's death

The last time Daario is with Dany in Meereen (before Daario's extended months-long absence), in in Dany's final POV chapter, at the end of SoS.  Daario then (per the theory) leaves Dany and journeys to the Iron Islands, arriving (in Catelyn's POV) in the middle of SoS.  No!  That makes no sense!  The middle of SoS can't occur after the end of SoS!  Yes it can.  See the Cavil on Chronology.  Events occurring thousands of miles apart are not necessarily presented in chronological order.  Catelyn and Dany are thousands of miles apart  But Catelyn's chapter in the middle of SoS is printed before Dany's final chapter.  That means it happens FIRST.  Not necessarily.  The Cavil on Chronology suggests otherwise.  Catelyn's chapters may be running ahead of Dany's chapters.   NOOO!  That not true!  That's IMPOSSIBLE!  Search your feelings.  You know it to be true.  No!  I refuse to accept this.  I can't force you man.  I can't force you.  I'm just describing the theory.  And according to the theory, Dany's last SoS chapter occurs about a month before Catelyn's middle SoS chapter, giving Daario time to leave Dany arrive at the Iron Islands.  .

That's what the Cavil on Chronology is for.  It gives him license to mislead us.  He knows no-one is paying attention to the Cavil on Chronology.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

35 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

The Cavil on Chronology suggests otherwise.

 

Mayhaps. That's only if you read the first paragraph as a general mandate for the entire text and not as a preamble to explain the second paragraph. The point of "A Note On Chronology" is to inform the reader that until they come across a certain POV in ASoS (Tyrion's, I believe) they are to assume that the timeline has been rewound to cover those events concurrent with the end of ACoK, so I tend to believe the latter.

Conversely, in "A Cavil On Chronology" in ADwD GRRM states:

Both Dance and Feast take up the story immediately after the events of the third volume in the series, A Storm of Swords.

Which is patently impossible, unless one accepts that the first three chapters in AFfC all occurred in the hours between the time Tyrion killed Tywin and the next day when Cersei's chapter starts. And that still leaves Jon being elected LC of the NW, Lysa Arryn taking a dive and Catelyn showing up again all happening somewhere in the same approximate timeframe. That's getting a little crowded.

There is obviously overlap between the third and fourth books, despite GRRM's statement to the contrary. Dance starts with Tyrion already well out to sea, so there is no conflict there (the prologue doesn't conflict with any other storylines and could occur before or after Cersei's first chapter). I have a theory about reckoning time passing that I'm going to test on my next full reread of the series to see if something I noticed in places holds rhyme and reason over the entire text.

[Platypus Rex]

20 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Conversely, in "A Cavil On Chronology" in ADwD GRRM states:
Both Dance and Feast take up the story immediately after the events of the third volume in the series, A Storm of Swords.

Try not reading that so narrowly, and you will solve a lot of problems.  The Dany chapters take place after the Dany chapters.  The Samwell chapters take place after the Samwell chapters.  The Arya chapters take place after the Ayra chapters.

It does not negate his warning about events occurring 1000 of miles apart.

It does not mean that Catelyn found out that Balon was dead in the Riverlands months before Aeron found on Great Wyk.

"Which is patently impossible, unless one accepts that the first three chapters in AFfC all occurred in the hours between the time Tyrion killed Tywin and the next day when Cersei's chapter starts."

It's impossible regardless.  Your argument proves too much.

"There is obviously overlap between the third and fourth books, despite GRRM's statement to the contrary."

Right.  So, logically, you have misread his alleged "statement to the contrary".

[Three-Fingered Pete]

16 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Try not reading that so narrowly, and you will solve a lot of problems.  The Dany chapters take place after the Dany chapters.  The Samwell chapters take place after the Samwell chapters.  The Arya chapters take place after the Ayra chapters.

 

Except that none of the three overlap chapters have any previous chapters to take place after or even a previous point of reference, so their point in the timeline is ambiguous. Not even Cersei's first POV has a chapter follow up on, but since she is taking Tyrion's and Sansa's place in the KL narrative, it flows without interruption. If you're not even going to try to make sense, this is going to be short conversation.

 

23 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

It does not negate his warning about events occurring 1000 of miles apart.

 

No warning is needed. It is apparent to anyone who has read the books. He also comments about timeframes not being equal, something a little more subtle. To me this is more key than the distance problem since one can be ameliorated by the other.

 

24 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

It does not mean that Catelyn found out that Balon was dead in the Riverlands months before Aeron found on Great Wyk.

 

Yeah. That's what I've been saying. I think the popular estimate of time passing is wrong. I intend to test that theory. I may be wrong, but I have reread everything to find out.

 

28 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Right.  So, logically, you have misread his alleged "statement to the contrary".

 

Right. So logically you have read too much into his quick notes to readers about his loose chronology format while ignoring his stated admonition to "put away the ruler and the stopwatch".

 I think it's time to Dardo this one.

[Platypus Rex]

12 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Except that none of the three overlap chapters have any previous chapters to take place after or even a previous point of reference, so their point in the timeline is ambiguous.

So, you're saying that if there are no points of reference, the chapters might not be chronological, relative to other chapters?

Apply that lesson to Dany's chapters in SoS when compared to Catelyn's chapters in SoS.

"Not even Cersei's first POV has a chapter follow up on, but since she is taking Tyrion's and Sansa's place in the KL narrative, it flows without interruption."

I agree that we can tell from context that Cersei's chapters are chronological relative to certain other chapters.  We cannot tell this with Dany's chapters in SoS, relative to Catelyn's chapters in SoS.

"If you're not even going to try to make sense, this is going to be short conversation."

Feel free to bow out at any time.

"No warning is needed. It is apparent to anyone who has read the books."

So, you agree that the chapters are not necessarily chronological.

"He also comments about timeframes not being equal, something a little more subtle. To me this is more key than the distance problem since one can be ameliorated by the other."

There is nothing inherent in distance that prevents chapters from being presented chronologically (though it arguably ALLOWS non-chronological presentation).  But, in any event, he chose to mention distance.  Ignore that as irrelevant if you please.

"Yeah. That's what I've been saying. I think the popular estimate of time passing is wrong."

Then others are free to make similar speculations.

"Right. So logically you have read too much into his quick notes to readers about his loose chronology format while ignoring his stated admonition to "put away the ruler and the stopwatch"."

LOL.  Are you another one of those "brave warriors" I was talking about?  If you can discuss the timeline, so can I.

[Clegane'sPup]

13 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 I think it's time to Dardo this one.

oye wait uno teeny tiny momento

<scratches me head that rests upon me shoulders>

The Flame and the Arrow reference Dardo ---

 

--- has rattled me little grey cells which is reference to Agatha's Poirot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrDqrMRJ_Pk

Unfortunately I seem unable to add Poirot's little grey cell video.

 

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

4 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

LOL.  Are you another one of those "brave warriors" I was talking about? 

Sorry, I don't comprehend your reference. Could you or would you add further comment about "brave warriors?"

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

oye wait uno teeny tiny momento

<scratches me head that rests upon me shoulders>

The Flame and the Arrow reference Dardo ---

 

--- has rattled me little grey cells which is reference to Agatha's Poirot.

 

Well, there's Dardo's way and there's Poirot's way... and then there is Three-Fingered Pete's way:

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

13 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

Well, there's Dardo's way and there's Poirot's way... and then there is Three-Fingered Pete's way:

 

 

oh my gosh this was fabulous

Ser, I only because you are

[the trees have eyes]

On 2/14/2019 at 1:14 AM, Platypus Rex said:

For the record, I have no problem with Euron and Daario being separate people.  It's GRRM who seems (perhaps) to hint otherwise.

Your pretense of being able to mindread GRRM's intentions, does not make the subtle clues for Sandor = Gravedigger any less subtle or ambiguous.  It's just that, on this issue, nobody wants to be a denialist.  How does the horse being alive logically prove that Sandor is not dead?  It simply doesn't.

Sandor=Gravedigger is a solid theory.  But if anyone wanted to play denialist, they would have a pretty easy time of it.

You're just assuming GRRM intends you to think what you think.  It is confirmation bias on steroids.

I feel you're deliberately misrepresenting the bolded.  Taken in isolation Stranger being alive proves nothing except Stranger is alive.  But of course we are presented with more than that: we are immediately presented with a bad tempted grave digger with a limp and we know the Hound was very attached to his horse, the horse reflected his master's bad temper and that Sandor was last seen with a serious (and infected) leg wound. 

Is it proof?  No, and I've already said it's not but it's clearly hinted and is a reasonable inference.  Playing with chapter sequencing to try and argue that two people are actually the same is...not so well hinted at or as reasonable an inference.  Given Euron has a dragon-binding horn and Daario has free access to Dany I'm really not clear why "Eurario" didn't make use of that rather than handing the horn over to Victarion.

Still, at least your poll wasn't "Is the Dusky Woman actually Euron?"

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

"I feel you're deliberately misrepresenting the bolded."  

You're accusing me of dishonesty?  With what motive?  I believe the theory that Sandor is alive.

"Taken in isolation Stranger being alive proves nothing except Stranger is alive." 

So it's okay when you say it, but when I say it you "feel" I'm being dishonest?

"Is it proof?  No, …"

So it's okay when you say it, but when I say it you "feel" I'm being dishonest?

 

[the trees have eyes]

9 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

You're accusing me of dishonesty?  With what motive?  I believe the theory that Sandor is alive.

"Taken in isolation Stranger being alive proves nothing except Stranger is alive." 

So it's okay when you say it, but when I say it you "feel" I'm being dishonest?

"Is it proof?  No, …"

So it's okay when you say it, but when I say it you "feel" I'm being dishonest?

 

Yes, you are misrepresenting - whether deliberately or unintentionally - by attempting to isolate a single strand of my (very brief) argument as to why Sandor = The Gravedigger (namely presence of Stranger) and treating that as the sum total thereby removing any corroborating support or the context in which we meet the two.

Given your response it seems you don't think this misrepresents what I said but cherry picking any single point to say it doesn't amount to a great deal by itself seems rather empty.  I see a good argument for Sandor being the Gravedigger (though it is not certain by any means) but I see no corresponding or equivalent arguments (or subtle clues if you prefer) for Daario and Euron being the same person.

Given you seem to believe Sandor = the gravedigger (or alive at any rate) you may simply be attempting to convince me/others of the merits of being open-minded as to Euron being Daario.  Alas, however much you appeal to reason, I see no support in the text and though I'm quite happy to let you believe what you will I do object to you equating the support for the two arguments as I think that's a false equivalence.

[Platypus Rex]

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Yes, you are misrepresenting - whether deliberately or unintentionally - by attempting to isolate a single strand of my (very brief) argument as to why Sandor = The Gravedigger (namely presence of Stranger) and treating that as the sum total thereby removing any corroborating support or the context in which we meet the two.

 I support Sandor = Gravedigger.  I'm not arguing against Sandor = Gravedigger.  I was not even arguing against Stranger as a point in favor of the theory.   If you thought otherwise, you were confused.

Sandor = Gravedigger is a good theory.  But it is still a theory.  It cannot survive the elevated standards of proof, and divide-and-conquer approach to evidence that are routinely applied to less popular theories.  I gave you a small taste of that.  That's all.

[the trees have eyes]

12 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

 I support Sandor = Gravedigger.  I'm not arguing against Sandor = Gravedigger.  I was not even arguing against Stranger as a point in favor of the theory.   If you thought otherwise, you were confused.

Sandor = Gravedigger is a good theory.  But it is still a theory.  It cannot survive the elevated standards of proof, and divide-and-conquer approach to evidence that are routinely applied to less popular theories.  I gave you a small taste of that.  That's all.

I simply don't agree with this mis-characterization of the position and I reject your comparison.  Euron = Daario is not rejected due to unreasonable or differing standards of proof being applied to it as opposed to other "more popular" theories.  There is simply a very weak case for it.  Comparing it to a theory that seems fairly strongly hinted at only serves to illustrate this point.

ETA: Given you have expressly decided to run a series of polls on what you term unpopular theories I have to wonder how long you are going to persist with tutoring us on how to think.  You've deliberately picked a lame horse in every race so I imagine you are getting the results you expected.

[Paltogue]

I've always liked this idea, even if it might be a struggle to make it work. You can count that as a yes if you like!

[Back door hodor]

So....Silence is described as a shall we say notable ship, black sails, red hull, crewed by mutes easily recognized. Much like the hounds horse, stranger, easily recognized by the readers even though the POV character we see it through does not know its name. It is the biggest clue and what gives away the hound to the readers.

So where is Silence when Euron/Dario is zipping back and forth across the world, someone would notice it.

And I don't like it particularly has to be Silence, but to me(and apparently many others judging by the responses)I need more than a slightly similar personality and that fact that a vague timeline could possibly allow something to be sure. If Euron had Darrios swords or Dario had Eurons armor from the preview chapter I could buy it. 

Someone did mention the Red Oarsman and Bloodbeard, I admit I missed this and will explore it further on my own, still vote no though.

I do suppose one could argue that as the plot line is not resolved, said reveal could be forthcoming still.

[Platypus Rex]

7 hours ago, Paltogue said:

I've always liked this idea, even if it might be a struggle to make it work. You can count that as a yes if you like!

Well, that makes 2 in favor (not counting Yours Truly).  Thanks for your vote.

[Platypus Rex]

7 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

So....Silence is described as a shall we say notable ship, black sails, red hull, crewed by mutes easily recognized. Much like the hounds horse, stranger, easily recognized by the readers even though the POV character we see it through does not know its name. It is the biggest clue and what gives away the hound to the readers.

So where is Silence when Euron/Dario is zipping back and forth across the world, someone would notice it.

And I don't like it particularly has to be Silence, but to me(and apparently many others judging by the responses)I need more than a slightly similar personality and that fact that a vague timeline could possibly allow something to be sure. If Euron had Darrios swords or Dario had Eurons armor from the preview chapter I could buy it. 

The purpose of black sails is to make a ship harder to see when sailing at night.  If you wanted to be inconspicuous under other circumstances, you might lower your black sail and put up a white one.  That way, people won't look at your ship and scream "PIRATE" the instant they see it.

The Silence does no have a red hull.  It has a red deck.  A deck is hard to see from any distance.  In any event, the reason the deck is red is to make the ship less conspicuous, not more conspicuous.

Sailors with no tongues look just like sailors.  Sailors that don't know the language of the local port are also a dime a dozen.  A sailor who grunts in response and points you to the captain is only doing what is expected.

Someone would notice it?  Maybe someone did.  The ship is infamous from Asshai to the Port of Ibben, so I guess lots of people must have noticed it.   Currently, however, Euron's practice is to sail out of sight of land, apparently with the aid of blood magic, whereas virtually all other ships hug the coast.

I have no idea why you think any particular POVs we've been following would have noticed it.

[Back door hodor]

53 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

The purpose of black sails is to make a ship harder to see when sailing at night.  If you wanted to be inconspicuous under other circumstances, you might lower your black sail and put up a white one.  That way, people won't look at your ship and scream "PIRATE" the instant they see it.

The Silence does no have a red hull.  It has a red deck.  A deck is hard to see from any distance.  In any event, the reason the deck is red is to make the ship less conspicuous, not more conspicuous.

Sailors with no tongues look just like sailors.  Sailors that don't know the language of the local port are also a dime a dozen.  A sailor who grunts in response and points you to the captain is only doing what is expected.

Someone would notice it?  Maybe someone did.  The ship is infamous from Asshai to the Port of Ibben, so I guess lots of people must have noticed it.   Currently, however, Euron's practice is to sail out of sight of land, apparently with the aid of blood magic, whereas virtually all other ships hug the coast.

I have no idea why you think any particular POVs we've been following would have noticed it.

I mean more that if there was something there to notice...someone would have, since no one has in my opinion, the coincidental evidence we do have is not enough, like I said, it doesn't necessarily have to be Silence, that's just the first thing that came to mind,(and I think it parallels nicely with stranger, the other evidence is suspect but stranger puts it over the top for many people, a sighting of Silence, would do the same, at least for me.) it could be anything. 

There is not enough there yet to prove this for me, baring a future reveal. Just because something could be possible from timeline wise doesnt mean it is. 

Also for the record I personally do not find thier personalities all that similar, definitely not as similar as you seem to think so. Dario seems to me to have the brash arrogance of a young man, while Eurons confidence comes more from the effect he has on others(he knows people fear him) and seems slightly older in when he talks and how he acts(again opinion).