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Sea Dragon

Is death good? Why fight the Others?

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Because death is peace, and necessary for life. Without the dead returning to the earth, becoming the wood and all within, the world falls out of balance. Death means an end to pain and suffering, but the immortality given by the Others is eternal suffering.

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Death is rest for the soul.  The average person will avoid death instinctively but those who are under constant suffering and feeling hopeless will see death as a release from the cruelties of living.  I'm talking about slaves and animals who are beasts of burden are also released from their suffering by death.  The instinct fights to survive but pile on enough suffering and death becomes the light at the end of a dark tunnel.  

What ice is giving is death too but it's not a release from suffering.  Ice brings cold and darkness.  Hell is frozen white.  Fire is warmth and light.  There are two kinds of threats in the story.  The non-human threat from natural causes like a potential invasion by the Others.  It's a fight between species.  Then there is the threat that humans create and inflict on each other.  

The author has an anti-war stance but also admits he is not a complete pacifists.  There is at least one war in the story that is justified.  That is Daenerys Targaryen's war against slavery and the masters.  The War of the Five Kings is not justified.  The 5 participants only made the kingdom weaker.  So all those slowly decomposing bodies are potential foot soldiers for the Others.  

 

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A Game of Thrones - Prologue

"How big a fool are you, old man? If there are enemies in this wood, a fire is the last thing we want."

"There's some enemies a fire will keep away," Gared said. "Bears and direwolves and … and other things …"

Ser Waymar's mouth became a hard line. "No fire."

 

Perhaps this is what the Others require?

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On 4/19/2019 at 5:04 AM, Springwatch said:

Interesting parallel. Craster was just buying his own safety though; no other benefit that I can see.

Craster was buying the right to live on the other side of the wall.  As in the Other's side.  

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Posted (edited)
On 4/18/2019 at 10:41 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Death is not to be confused with what the Others do.  Death is the end of life.  The Others take the dead and control them.  It's not death they bring.  They take something natural and twist it into something ugly.  Craster and the kings of winter bought into this promise.  The baby offerings and the human sacrifices to the trees show this.  The First Men were a cruel people who gave blood generously to their trees. 

 

Death is still bad.  Life is good.  I mean we are supposed to want to live.  I can present forth the argument that nothing in the universe matter if life did not exist.  The question we are presented in the story is the value of all life versus human life.  The struggle within those in positions of power to judge who should live and die is a fundamental question.  George established already that he is not against all war.  War means killing.  

On 4/18/2019 at 3:44 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I don't think 'The Others' are bad guys. They can be considered antagonists but claiming they're intentions are bad would be ignorant. If the Others wanted to mercilessly kill as many humans as they could, they could of had a field day with Mance and co. Plus, it would be untrue to say that the Others and Whites simply kill. They also raise the dead. Bringing about a different kind of life. It's feasible that Dany can also do something similar, only with dragons. The magic of Ice and Fire isn't all that different and neither one should be allowed to win over the other. In-between this struggle is humanity. The world can end in ice, it can also end in fire. Humanity must find the balance. 

The fandom love Dany. She wears the veil of a hero well. But she did bring three ferocious creatures into the world. Creatures that will burn and kill many people. Maybe even as many as the Others. Who can say? I think she represents Fire. I'd say that was definitive of her character. She just hasn't fully embraced it yet. 

As for a balance and what that looks like. I think neither Dany nor the Others can win over Westeros without destroying it for mankind. So mankind needs a hero who can balance the two sides somehow. Jon could be the man to do this. It seems fitting that he would try to temper the situation. His alleged parentage alone is the perfect symbol for this. So he does have ice and fire in him. And we see him struggle with his passions vs his duty. Which is also a fire and ice comparison. So it looks like the story is moulding Jon into discovering a version of himself that is equal parts. Someone who doesn't fight for magic, or crowns or power, but balance. Someone who can balance mercy and justice. He clearly hasn't found that yet. But he will. Just as Dany hasn't fully embraced the Dragon/fire. I think this is the most natural way for the story to continue. 
 

Daenerys is the closest to hero figure in these novels.  She is not as flawed as Jon, Robb, Jaime, Robert, Rhaegar, and Aerys.  You are wrong about your assessment of Daenerys and Jon.  Jon is the less balanced of the two.  He had a simple job at the wall and he could not accomplish that work.  Look, if he can't manage a small group like the people at the wall, he sure as hell is not going to be able to lead a multi-racial, multi-ethnic army against the Others.  Daenerys, on the other hand, has her own khalazar and she has liberated more than a quarter million former slaves.  She speaks many languages and knows how to lead.  She showed great leadership at the Red Waste.  She is much better at leading than Jon, Robb, and Rhaegar.  If Jon can't win Slynt over he sure as hell ain't gonna win over too many people outside of the north.  

Edited by Mordred

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On 4/19/2019 at 9:56 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

Death is rest for the soul.  The average person will avoid death instinctively but those who are under constant suffering and feeling hopeless will see death as a release from the cruelties of living.  I'm talking about slaves and animals who are beasts of burden are also released from their suffering by death.  The instinct fights to survive but pile on enough suffering and death becomes the light at the end of a dark tunnel.  

What ice is giving is death too but it's not a release from suffering.  Ice brings cold and darkness.  Hell is frozen white.  Fire is warmth and light.  There are two kinds of threats in the story.  The non-human threat from natural causes like a potential invasion by the Others.  It's a fight between species.  Then there is the threat that humans create and inflict on each other.  

The author has an anti-war stance but also admits he is not a complete pacifists.  There is at least one war in the story that is justified.  That is Daenerys Targaryen's war against slavery and the masters.  The War of the Five Kings is not justified.  The 5 participants only made the kingdom weaker.  So all those slowly decomposing bodies are potential foot soldiers for the Others.  

 

Ice does kill.  Ice is not done with you after you die.  Ice corrupts and turns the dead into automatons to carry out their war against the living. The Starks preserve their dead and keep them hanging around.  That can't be good.   It's like the Egyptians preserving the dead except in this instance there is no need for mummification.  The cold slows down the decay as if those dead bodies are expecting their gods, the Others, to bring them back to life.  What the Starks promised or what they did in the past to earn this second life must have been good for the Others.  Life as a wight isn't going to be fun but maybe the Starks get special treatment.  They get transformed into the Others for their devotion to the White Walkers.

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On 2/2/2019 at 1:06 PM, Sea Dragon said:

We don't know what the Others want. I mean they want a someone it seems from the first book prologue. But Waymar caused the fight. What if they need a new pact to be made because the world has dragons and Danaerys who give life. 

And we see Danaerys birth the dragons. She gave freedom to people so they may live. Everywhere she goes she will bring peace which will bring life. 

What books have you been reading? When has Danny ever brought peace anywhere? Everywhere she goes she brings war and chaos. And how did Wymar Manderly start the fight with the Other?

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On 4/19/2019 at 1:27 PM, Headless Wolf said:

Because death is peace, and necessary for life. Without the dead returning to the earth, becoming the wood and all within, the world falls out of balance. Death means an end to pain and suffering, but the immortality given by the Others is eternal suffering.

The immortality given by the ice walkers is eternal suffering and arguably a severe form of slavery.  Slavery is already severe but to also steal the soul, that's even worse.  

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4 hours ago, Mordred said:

The immortality given by the ice walkers is eternal suffering and arguably a severe form of slavery.  Slavery is already severe but to also steal the soul, that's even worse.  

Are you suggesting the zombie wights and white walkers are sentient? They never showed any such signs. Without sentience, there cannot be suffering.

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On 5/2/2019 at 1:29 AM, Mordred said:

Daenerys is the closest to hero figure in these novels.  She is not as flawed as Jon, Robb, Jaime, Robert, Rhaegar, and Aerys.  You are wrong about your assessment of Daenerys and Jon.  Jon is the less balanced of the two.  He had a simple job at the wall and he could not accomplish that work.  Look, if he can't manage a small group like the people at the wall, he sure as hell is not going to be able to lead a multi-racial, multi-ethnic army against the Others.  Daenerys, on the other hand, has her own khalazar and she has liberated more than a quarter million former slaves.  She speaks many languages and knows how to lead.  She showed great leadership at the Red Waste.  She is much better at leading than Jon, Robb, and Rhaegar.  If Jon can't win Slynt over he sure as hell ain't gonna win over too many people outside of the north.  

That's complete and utter bias. Look, it's fine to love a character. But nobody is perfect and if I thought for one moment that my response would of provoked such diatribe then I wouldn't of bothered to begin with. 

On the off chance you're not a complete troll....

Dany is a very mixed-up character. Seven hells, they all are! Dany has some fine intentions, and few could suggest that she wasn't trying to end a lot of pain in the world. But good intentions don't mean a damn thing when you serve it with fire and blood. I like Dany. I like nearly all of the characters. But she's not the messiah you've dreamed her to be. She has left quite a trail of destruction in her wake.

Lets take a look at the language you've used. 
Daenerys is the closest to hero figure in these novels.  No. You're thinking of Brienne. 

She is not as flawed as Jon, Robb, Jaime, Robert, Rhaegar, and Aerys. What has this seemingly random group of people have in common? They're male?... She's literally crucified people en masse. Left a trail of destruction in her wake and abandoned her city during war and famine. She watched her own kin die a horrific death. Sent her most trusted protector into exile - without trial. Honestly, I could go on. 

You are wrong about your assessment of Daenerys and Jon.  Jon is the less balanced of the two.  He had a simple job at the wall and he could not accomplish that work. Oh wow. This is so many different kinds of delusional I don't even know where to start. Jon's job is by far the more difficult. He can't just stroll onwards with hordes of worshippers cheering him forward. He can't win people over with three magical dragons. He's remained fixed on the single most biggest problem facing their world. And he has to rely on groups of people who are sworn enemies to co-operate. It's an absolute shitstorm at the wall. Have you actually read the book? Jon is balance. Part fire. Part Ice. It doesn't matter whom you prefer. That is their character arc.

I was going to go on but it's painfully obvious that you've built Dany up into what you want her to be. Read the book again. 

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Death comes for all and so the living should make the most of their limited time.  Immortality would be fine if people weren't so motivated to reproduce.  Some causes are worth dying for but golly life is precious.  The lords of Westeros throw lives away as if they're nothing.  The ones who triggered wars got punished badly.  Tywin, Balon, Renly, Robert, Jon Arryn, Robb, and Catelyn.  Something bad is coming for Roose, Walder, Cersei, Arya, and Arianne for their role in the war of the 5 kings and keeping the conflict going.  

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On 5/1/2019 at 9:08 PM, Mordred said:

The immortality given by the ice walkers is eternal suffering and arguably a severe form of slavery.  Slavery is already severe but to also steal the soul, that's even worse.  

Warging and Skin Changing is mind control.  That's slavery of the living.  At least the Whitewalkers wait until the target is dead before controlling them.  Mind control of a living creature is worse.

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