The First Law- But a Second Reread (or Third, or Fourth or Fi.....) spoilers for First Law books

[Yohn]

10 hours ago, red snow said:

I think we are all aware of that but those types of twist are best when there were clues there all along. 

I was also wondering regarding "the first law" whether logen may have unwittingly (or intentionally) broken it at some point? Maybe that's what the bloody nine/beserker entity is? Could his ability to speak with spirits possibly allow him to communicate with demons/the other side? What is the difference between spirits and demons? Would be neat if the trilogy is actually about logen breaking the law. Just throwing random thoughts out

Someone pointed out earlier in the thread that Bedesh had the ability to talk to spirits and make them do his bidding and that Logen, as a descendent, of Bedesh inherited that ability. We're also told that spirits are disappearing 'from this world' as distinct from the the realm to which Euz banished them - is it called 'The Other Side'?

So spirits are unlikely to be the same as demons IMHO and Logen doesn't break the First Law. We don't really know what spirits are, other than pretty useless and disappearing fast.

[A True Kaniggit]

Didn't Logen kinda eat someone after one of his duels, does blood count as consuming the flesh of man? I don't think it was ever mentioned if he got his spirit communication powers before or after that incident. I can easily see him getting some abilities at this point when he broke the second law.

[Varysblackfyre321]

20 hours ago, red snow said:

But most of this is informed by what we know about logen later. In this book there is little to no evidence he is anything other than a man who is a bit too good at killing. He seems considerate and likeable and as far as we can tell only attacks those who attack him. They also establish bethod and co to be the type of people a decent man would rub up against.

As for accusing logen of being an animal, a coward and an oathbreaker. He might have killed someone in cold blood that Bethod had told him not to (a bit like in sharp ends). Or Logen may have finally refused to carry out a murder/mission justifying the name calling.

I don’t see that. Logen recounts to Quai on how he’s murdered people in their sleep, tortured, murdered, and burned alive people in the first book. And there’s no indication he did all that because he was under control by Bethod. He did it, because he liked it. And he nearly attacked Ferro after dealing with the inquisiters. 

[Yohn]

18 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t see that. Logen recounts to Quai on how he’s murdered people in their sleep, tortured, murdered, and burned alive people in the first book. And there’s no indication he did all that because he was under control by Bethod. He did it, because he liked it. And he nearly attacked Ferro after dealing with the inquisiters. 

In Ferro's case I think we need to differentiate the things Logen has done as himself and those as the Bloody-Nine, over whom he has no control.

I don't think he's proud of the things he's done, although that was the case when he was a younger man.

[BigFatCoward]

54 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Didn't Logen kinda eat someone after one of his duels, does blood count as consuming the flesh of man? I don't think it was ever mentioned if he got his spirit communication powers before or after that incident. I can easily see him getting some abilities at this point when he broke the second law.

I think he was covered/smeared himself in blood after he killed shivers brother in sharp ends. I don't remember him eating anyone? 

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t see that. Logen recounts to Quai on how he’s murdered people in their sleep, tortured, murdered, and burned alive people in the first book. And there’s no indication he did all that because he was under control by Bethod. He did it, because he liked it. And he nearly attacked Ferro after dealing with the inquisiters. 

Didn't he attack ferro in B9 mode though?

I just finished part 1 on way into work this morning and there is a good section where Logen hints at him being pretty bad with the admission that even when he's trying to avoid being involved in killing he still is. I think it's pretty interesting in terms of "logen has always and still is bad" because he has aligned himself with Bayaz when he could just as easily have walked away from it all. It's like he finds excuses to place himself at the centre of conflict whilst fooling himself he is simply caught up in events. Another bit of evidence against him was telling bayaz he didn't want to know what Bayaz had planned as if it absolves him of guilt acting on behalf of someone in ignorance. That doesn't cut it - if anything it makes him worse. He's not even being deceived by Bayaz he's wilfully following him blindly which makes him an accessory. And i suspect it's the exact same thing he did with Bethod but hiding behind an oath as his excuse. Maybe he rebelled against Bethod simply because all the other northern adversaries were exhausted?

[Varysblackfyre321]

23 minutes ago, red snow said:

Didn't he attack ferro in B9 mode though?

 

Nearly * He came to his senses in the last minute. I don’t really think the line between the the Bloody-Nine and Logen is clear cut if it exists. Though my main point in referencing this  is to point out even in the first novel it’s heavily hinted Logen by himself is still evil.

27 minutes ago, red snow said:

 I just finished part 1 on way into work this morning and there is a good section where Logen hints at him being pretty bad with the admission that even when he's trying to avoid being involved in killing he still is. I think it's pretty interesting in terms of "logen has always and still is bad" because he has aligned himself with Bayaz when he could just as easily have walked away from it all. It's like he finds excuses to place himself at the centre of conflict whilst fooling himself he is simply caught up in events. Another bit of evidence against him was telling bayaz he didn't want to know what Bayaz had planned as if it absolves him of guilt acting on behalf of someone in ignorance. That doesn't cut it - if anything it makes him worse. He's not even being deceived by Bayaz he's wilfully following him blindly which makes him an accessory. And i suspect it's the exact same thing he did with Bethod but hiding behind an oath as his excuse. Maybe he rebelled against Bethod simply because all the other northern adversaries were exhausted?

I kinda see his rebellion misplacing the burden of guilt for his crimes onto Bethod. He wants to change. Or at least he wants to appear to  desire to change. But to do that he’d actually address all the bad stuff he did. Bethod is a quick and easy scapegoat. If Logen crushes him that will(in part) redeem himself because Bethod is surely much more evil than Logen.

[The BlackBear]

Urgh got confused and forgot about the re-read. 

On 2/11/2019 at 1:06 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

What’s the opinion on Logan deciding to save Quai? Seems at odds with his character later in the novels and goes against his reflections on how he acted in his past. Plus, we see him leave his friends for dead without even trying to find them. Thoughts?

At the beginning of the books he's very much running away from his old life, even if he likes his 'friends' which apart from a few of them I don't think he really does, they're reminders of his old self. Quai doesn't know him, so for Logen it's a chance for him to play the hero.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

I think he was covered/smeared himself in blood after he killed shivers brother in sharp ends. I don't remember him eating anyone? 

And pulled out his entrails and beheaded him.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Nearly * He came to his senses in the last minute. I don’t really think the line between the the Bloody-Nine and Logen is clear cut if it exists. Though my main point in referencing this  is to point out even in the first novel it’s heavily hinted Logen by himself is still evil.

I kinda see his rebellion misplacing the burden of guilt for his crimes onto Bethod. He wants to change. Or at least he wants to appear to  desire to change. But to do that he’d actually address all the bad stuff he did. Bethod is a quick and easy scapegoat. If Logen crushes him that will(in part) redeem himself because Bethod is surely much more evil than Logen.

I would not even go so far as him thinking bethod more evil than him (from the text so far). If he was largely responsible for aiding Bethod become king then deposing Bethod in a weird way is him getting revenge on his former self.

The problem is that he's just aiding Bayaz who is as bad/worse.

I'm actually looking forward to "red country" as i think I'm going to appreciate logen's outlook much more. He actually "gets" it there that the best way to atone is to not get involved in any more shit. That and accept there isn't any atonement he just has to live with it and avoid causing additional harm.

[Larry of the Lawn]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Nearly * He came to his senses in the last minute. I don’t really think the line between the the Bloody-Nine and Logen is clear cut if it exists. Though my main point in referencing this  is to point out even in the first novel it’s heavily hinted Logen by himself is still evil.

I kinda see his rebellion misplacing the burden of guilt for his crimes onto Bethod. He wants to change. Or at least he wants to appear to  desire to change. But to do that he’d actually address all the bad stuff he did. Bethod is a quick and easy scapegoat. If Logen crushes him that will(in part) redeem himself because Bethod is surely much more evil than Logen.

It is though - he has some kind of dissociative break where everyone becomes his enemy.  This seems pretty clear in the text from him killing Tul Duru, Crohm's kid, trying to kill Ferro, even the people he loves in Red Country.  Agree that Logen on his own does bad shit but the B9 is a separate state where he's in Arlo Guthrie-style "kill, kill, KILL!" mode.

[C.T. Phipps]

I think a major thing about Logen is that he's just going along with the flow more than anyone else. One of the elements I like about the theory that he's got a literal case of Split Personality Disorder is that Logen the Barbarian is actually incredibly passive. Part of why the discovery of his violent horrific side is so surprising is he seems to be a fairly gentle person and it's hard to believe he could be guilty of anything. The reasons for this, of course, are because all of his violent and aggressive behaviors are trapped elsewhere. This includes ambitions and determination so he basically just goes along with whatever people tell him to.

[red snow]

36 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

It is though - he has some kind of dissociative break where everyone becomes his enemy.  This seems pretty clear in the text from him killing Tul Duru, Crohm's kid, trying to kill Ferro, even the people he loves in Red Country.  Agree that Logen on his own does bad shit but the B9 is a separate state where he's in Arlo Guthrie-style "kill, kill, KILL!" mode.

I think it's fairly clear when he is in hulk mode vs Normal mode. It's just a question of is he losing control of himself or is some other entity tsking control. The latter does excuse him somewhat for killing people in that state. Not sure in our world if a soldier would be classed as temporarily insane or not .

[The BlackBear]

B9 is also different from POV to being seen/talked about. In the Logen POV chapters, when he becomes the B9 he's a different person, he just wants to kill everyone, he's 100% a murderer all the time. But when he looks back on it, that can't be the case, no matter how dangerous he was, he wasn't fighting everything in sight all the time. We see that in the prequel short story too, he's psychopathic but capable of chatting with Bethod and having sex. And for most of Red Country that isn't what we see either, he kind of goes halfway. It's only a couple of times when we see him in full kill-everything mode: against Golden (I think he kills a bystander), in the shack against Jubair (he warns Savian not to come into the same room as him, and his laughter is heard), and in the temple against Waerdinur (he tries to kill Ro.)

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, The BlackBear said:

B9 is also different from POV to being seen/talked about. In the Logen POV chapters, when he becomes the B9 he's a different person, he just wants to kill everyone, he's 100% a murderer all the time. But when he looks back on it, that can't be the case, no matter how dangerous he was, he wasn't fighting everything in sight all the time. We see that in the prequel short story too, he's psychopathic but capable of chatting with Bethod and having sex. And for most of Red Country that isn't what we see either, he kind of goes halfway. It's only a couple of times when we see him in full kill-everything mode: against Golden (I think he kills a bystander), in the shack against Jubair (he warns Savian not to come into the same room as him, and his laughter is heard), and in the temple against Waerdinur (he tries to kill Ro.)

Agreed, and any discussion about the nature of Logen's B9 persona is definitely something people should pay attention to in the reread, as it is something we discuss regularly when talking about the books.

The crazed berserker B9 we see in the trilogy simply isn't capable of doing some of the things that we either see him do in the prequel story or know that he did.  Like sparing Threetrees, Dow, Tul, Dogman, and Grim in their respective duels.  If it was just one or two survivors, then maybe we could conclude that Logen passed out or something, but having that happen in 5 different duels is not credible.  Logen must have had enough control over himself to spare them.

That brings up the question - is this a continuity error on Abercrombie's part, or is the nature of the Bloody Nine changing?  It's hard to believe this is just an error on Abercrombie's part because of the short story, where the depiction of Logen is central to the story, and it is unequivocally different from the later Logen/B9 that we see. 

Therefore, IF we think that the nature of the Bloody Nine is changing, what does that mean?  Or could it be that the longer that the B9 is in Logen, the less control over him that it has?  Because in the case of the earliest B9 depictions, it seems like Logen is B9 for weeks or longer.  Whereas in the entire trilogy B9 never appears for more than a few minutes at a time.  Definitely something to keep an eye on in the Red Country Reread.

[red snow]

Maybe it takes time for logen to build up resistance against the b9? That and there probably has to be a point where he starts resisting. It could well be the case (especially after the death of his family/village) that logen and b9 were in complete agreement/alignment so there was no need to resist.

Black dow stands out the most for being spared but that was maybe a b9 bit of empathy for a dark kindred spirit

[The BlackBear]

His mindset for me is crucial, in his past he was happy to be seen as this monster, and in Red Country he's glad to be able to go on the warpath against the Dragon People. In the Trilogy he's actively suppressing it, so when he loses it it's totally extreme.

That being said, I still think it's a little jarring the difference. Maybe it will be cleared up a bit, Logen's affinity for spirits might have something to do with it, but it's not really clear right now.

Does anyone think what happened to Shivers after his eye was burned out is similar to the B9, or he was just crazed out of his mind by pain?

[Maithanet]

7 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

His mindset for me is crucial, in his past he was happy to be seen as this monster, and in Red Country he's glad to be able to go on the warpath against the Dragon People. In the Trilogy he's actively suppressing it, so when he loses it it's totally extreme.

That being said, I still think it's a little jarring the difference. Maybe it will be cleared up a bit, Logen's affinity for spirits might have something to do with it, but it's not really clear right now.

Does anyone think what happened to Shivers after his eye was burned out is similar to the B9, or he was just crazed out of his mind by pain?

The Shivers scenes always seemed more like everyday bloodlust rather than the borderline supernatural Bloody Nine. 

And yes, Logen's connection with spirits has always seemed potentially related to the B9.  We never see enough of the spirits to be sure, but the idea that it is some angry spirit possessing him makes sense. 

[SeanF]

Logan in Sharp Ends is far nastier than in TFL and Red Country.  I think he and B9 were one and the same, at that stage.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, The BlackBear said:

His mindset for me is crucial, in his past he was happy to be seen as this monster, and in Red Country he's glad to be able to go on the warpath against the Dragon People. In the Trilogy he's actively suppressing it, so when he loses it it's totally extreme.

That being said, I still think it's a little jarring the difference. Maybe it will be cleared up a bit, Logen's affinity for spirits might have something to do with it, but it's not really clear right now.

Does anyone think what happened to Shivers after his eye was burned out is similar to the B9, or he was just crazed out of his mind by pain?

There was a time I thought shivers may have aquired the b9 based on the description of how the rage possessed him but i dismissed it once we saw logen still had it. If the b9 is a spirit/force/demon then it surely can't be in two people at once? Although it is interesting that shivers seems to take the high road after logen goes b9. A few books off going over those scenes yet though. Comparing shivers and logen is also worth doing as we go along