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The First Law- But a Second Reread (or Third, or Fourth or Fi.....) spoilers for First Law books


A True Kaniggit

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4 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

It is though - he has some kind of dissociative break where everyone becomes his enemy.  This seems pretty clear in the text from him killing Tul Duru, Crohm's kid, trying to kill Ferro, even the people he loves in Red Country.  Agree that Logen on his own does bad shit but the B9 is a separate state where he's in Arlo Guthrie-style "kill, kill, KILL!" mode.

Meh, who did Bethod confront about Ralf's son in Sharp ends? The bloody-nine or Logen?The man Bethod interacts with has enough control to not immediately kill Bethod but he is fully hyped on the idea of himself being the bloody-nine and spreading death and his queer reaction to causing his to bleed through breaking a cup reminds me of the B9's reaction to sudden pain more than typical Logen's. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, red snow said:

Maybe it takes time for logen to build up resistance against the b9? That and there probably has to be a point where he starts resisting. It could well be the case (especially after the death of his family/village) that logen and b9 were in complete agreement/alignment so there was no need to resist.

Black dow stands out the most for being spared but that was maybe a b9 bit of empathy for a dark kindred spirit

Or the longer Logen is in the B9 state the less out of control he is. The short bursts we see of B9 in the orginal trilogy and red country Joe come after months-years of him heavily(not completely)  suppressing his natural violent tendencies. So when we do see him let go, he's like a Vegetarian who allows themselves one cheat to eat meat-he overindulges himself. And you forget the Weakest. I dont think it's empathy motivating the bloodynine/Logen to  spare them. Each man in Logen's crew was a trophy. Proof of the Bloody nine's ability to break all; whether they'd be the weakest(Forely) the nastiest(Dow), the strongest(Duru),  or the toughest(Threetrees). His fight with stone splitter has him thinking with glee on how he broke each of these men.  

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3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think a major thing about Logen is that he's just going along with the flow more than anyone else. One of the elements I like about the theory that he's got a literal case of Split Personality Disorder is that Logen the Barbarian is actually incredibly passive. Part of why the discovery of his violent horrific side is so surprising is he seems to be a fairly gentle person and it's hard to believe he could be guilty of anything. The reasons for this, of course, are because all of his violent and aggressive behaviors are trapped elsewhere. This includes ambitions and determination so he basically just goes along with whatever people tell him to.

I dont this "incredibly passive" is exactly the way to describe Logen. He often does take control even when others want to be leader. When Baz was incaptiated, he was the one to have kept the group going despite any protests. And Logen when he saw the children were taken in Red country Joe was relieved-because he could finally act violent y. If he was fairly gentle it would seem odd he'd be yearning for a situtaion where he'd have an excuse to act incredibly violently even if it may have come at the costs of 2 of his adopted children's lives,

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On 2/11/2019 at 7:40 PM, SkynJay said:

.  Gloka always asks himself 'why' he does the things he does, as if questioning his actions in anyway changes the morality of what he does. 

I dont't think the majority of the time Glocka when questioning himself is really contemplating the morality of his actions. But more questions what is the point of doing them.I think initially there was a greater catharsis for Glocka being in the torturer rather than than the tortured. But overtime, that feeling waned and now he's more going through the motions and wondering why does he bother,

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27 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I dont't think the majority of the time Glocka when questioning himself is really contemplating the morality of his actions. But more questions what is the point of doing them.I think initially there was a greater catharsis for Glocka being in the torturer rather than than the tortured. But overtime, that feeling waned and now he's more going through the motions and wondering why does he bother,

Glokta tortures people because there's not much left for a deformed mutilated hideous ex-soldier to do, even from a good family. It's the only form of "service" left to him. Or at least that's seemingly what he thinks at the start or what the reader is meant to think.

It's only at the end does he realize just how deep his sadism and misanthropy goes.

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37 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I dont't think the majority of the time Glocka when questioning himself is really contemplating the morality of his actions. But more questions what is the point of doing them.I think initially there was a greater catharsis for Glocka being in the torturer rather than than the tortured. But overtime, that feeling waned and now he's more going through the motions and wondering why does he bother,

That was my reading. Also, as someone who has been tortured he understands the futility of it. 

First ferro chapter. What a fucking piece of work. 

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1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

That was my reading. Also, as someone who has been tortured he understands the futility of it. 

First ferro chapter. What a fucking piece of work. 

I felt it worked better as an introduction to Yulwei than to her. From the POVs so far it seems like Logen, Glokta and Jezal were the most fleshed out from the point of conception and that West, Dogman and Ferro were added later not just in terms of their appearance in the book. That or a simple case of some characters taking on a life of their own. It helps they are the most distinct while Dogman does feel a bit too Logen initially and West besides appearing a decent man doesn't have much going for him yet in terms of standing out.

The "king's justice" chapter showed what a willing cog Glokta appears to be. It's also surprising how everyone is fine with what is obviously theatre regarding confessions and testimonies. There's even the bit where Glokta has to tell one of them to shut up after repeating the same rehearsed phrase several times. 

On another thread I mentioned how I'm surprised no one has picked up this series as a potential TV show. Someone argued it was "too big" for TV. This used to be my mindset but I'm thinking "Vikings" and "Last Kingdom" can handle battle scenes that wouldn't need to be much more complicated for "the first law". But maybe I'm forgetting a lot of OTT magic from the first trilogy. Anyway I'm keeping an "eye out" for scenes in the re-read where I can go "that would be hard to film". So far there's nothing which is actually ideal for a TV show as a "cheap" first season hopefully lets them build an audience/cash for more flashy events later. One criticism is that the trilogy ends a bit too abruptly. I can't recall if that's the case but I guess it would be hard to transition from the trilogy into the stand-alones.

 

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8 hours ago, red snow said:

On another thread I mentioned how I'm surprised no one has picked up this series as a potential TV show. Someone argued it was "too big" for TV. This used to be my mindset but I'm thinking "Vikings" and "Last Kingdom" can handle battle scenes that wouldn't need to be much more complicated for "the first law". But maybe I'm forgetting a lot of OTT magic from the first trilogy. Anyway I'm keeping an "eye out" for scenes in the re-read where I can go "that would be hard to film". So far there's nothing which is actually ideal for a TV show as a "cheap" first season hopefully lets them build an audience/cash for more flashy events later. One criticism is that the trilogy ends a bit too abruptly. I can't recall if that's the case but I guess it would be hard to transition from the trilogy into the stand-alones.

Truth be told the first book alone should be relatively cheap to adapt  compared to Vikings or the last kingdom.

Theres not really any massive battle scenes. 

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8 hours ago, red snow said:

The "king's justice" chapter showed what a willing cog Glokta appears to be. It's also surprising how everyone is fine with what is obviously theatre regarding confessions and testimonies. There's even the bit where Glokta has to tell one of them to shut up after repeating the same rehearsed phrase several times. 

Is it? I mean torture was/is a way for states to get confessions that often  serve little more than to showcase to the masses the effectiveness of government.

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Honestly, the idea of torture as an effective means of confession vs. an ineffective way of getting information is something I think most governments who use it are aware of.

It's what made the US' experiment with it all the more inexplicable.

"They'll say anything to make the pain stop" was in the Name of the Rose among other places.

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46 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Truth be told the first book alone should be relatively cheap to adapt  compared to Vikings or the last kingdom.

Theres not really any massive battle scenes. 

And the rest is pretty much outdoors. The agriont etc is somewhere a European city can be used (assuming GOT hasnt used them all).

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Is it? I mean torture was/is a way for states to get confessions that often  serve little more than to showcase to the masses the effectiveness of government.

I guess at this stage it's the merchant classes and not the nobles said "witch-hunt" is targeting but even Jezal was worried that he and his family could become a target. So while it's an effective tool at keeping the masses in place i'd be surprised if there weren't more checks and balances higher up the chain to prevent it from being used to target them. At the moment it just feels a bit like Sult (?) Is the first person to realise the inquisition can be used to get rid of opponents. And Jezal reacted as if this was new, perhaps only because this one may affect him which fits his selfish character. Or maybe no one expects the union inquisition! :)

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Is it? I mean torture was/is a way for states to get confessions that often  serve little more than to showcase to the masses the effectiveness of government.

As well as demonstrating what will happen if you offend your rulers

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While admittedly my main source are only the "Judge Dee" novels (highly recommendable btw) the main point of torture in imperial China and in early modern Europe was not to get information. Rather, they had a rule for some crimes (or generally) that nobody could be convicted without a confession. So they would not randomly torture people but only those where they had very good reasons to assume guilt.

(Of course this does not mean that it was not also abused, but the "police state" of First Law is fantasy, which is of course perfectly fine.)

In "Judge Dee" there is also the rule that if a judge (who is judge, prosecutor, detective inspector and chief administrator in one person) orders torture or death penalty and it turns out that it was unjustified he will suffer the same fate as the innocent victim of justice (again, I have not checked this independently but Van Gulick was a sinologist and supposedly reliable wrt historical background). There are several episode when Dee is in a dilemma whether to risk his own career or even life (including his large family's) with the decision to order the torture of a suspect and this is obviously also a reason why he prefers to solve the cases and get confessions without it.

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12 hours ago, red snow said:

 

On another thread I mentioned how I'm surprised no one has picked up this series as a potential TV show. Someone argued it was "too big" for TV. This used to be my mindset but I'm thinking "Vikings" and "Last Kingdom" can handle battle scenes that wouldn't need to be much more complicated for "the first law". But maybe I'm forgetting a lot of OTT magic from the first trilogy. Anyway I'm keeping an "eye out" for scenes in the re-read where I can go "that would be hard to film". So far there's nothing which is actually ideal for a TV show as a "cheap" first season hopefully lets them build an audience/cash for more flashy events later. One criticism is that the trilogy ends a bit too abruptly. I can't recall if that's the case but I guess it would be hard to transition from the trilogy into the stand-alones.

 

I have also wondered about this, and i'm pretty sure discussed it here. Book 1 would be peanuts to adapt, there are no big set pieces at all, and could probably be done in 6 hours. 

Book 2 has bigger scenes, but the battle with the feared and the shanka is in fog, so that could limit the scope down to a small pitched battle.  Half the book is just a bunch of people riding and bikering and occasionally kicking shit out of people. The Dagosta stuff would be the biggest expense but as Glokta is rarely in the thick of it, this section could be more about the intrigue than the battles. Book 2 probably takes 8 hours to bring to screen.

Book 3 has huge set pieces and would need a lot more money, but by then its either a hit or it isn't and money would be there or not. 

BSC and the Heroes both would cost a shit ton of money to do right. Red Country not as much.

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2 hours ago, Jo498 said:

While admittedly my main source are only the "Judge Dee" novels (highly recommendable btw) the main point of torture in imperial China and in early modern Europe was not to get information. Rather, they had a rule for some crimes (or generally) that nobody could be convicted without a confession. So they would not randomly torture people but only those where they had very good reasons to assume guilt.

(Of course this does not mean that it was not also abused, but the "police state" of First Law is fantasy, which is of course perfectly fine.)

In "Judge Dee" there is also the rule that if a judge (who is judge, prosecutor, detective inspector and chief administrator in one person) orders torture or death penalty and it turns out that it was unjustified he will suffer the same fate as the innocent victim of justice (again, I have not checked this independently but Van Gulick was a sinologist and supposedly reliable wrt historical background). There are several episode when Dee is in a dilemma whether to risk his own career or even life (including his large family's) with the decision to order the torture of a suspect and this is obviously also a reason why he prefers to solve the cases and get confessions without it.

The Royal Inquisition is much more a 20th century institution.

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33 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I have also wondered about this, and i'm pretty sure discussed it here. Book 1 would be peanuts to adapt, there are no big set pieces at all, and could probably be done in 6 hours. 

Book 2 has bigger scenes, but the battle with the feared and the shanka is in fog, so that could limit the scope down to a small pitched battle.  Half the book is just a bunch of people riding and bikering and occasionally kicking shit out of people. The Dagosta stuff would be the biggest expense but as Glokta is rarely in the thick of it, this section could be more about the intrigue than the battles. Book 2 probably takes 8 hours to bring to screen.

Book 3 has huge set pieces and would need a lot more money, but by then its either a hit or it isn't and money would be there or not. 

BSC and the Heroes both would cost a shit ton of money to do right. Red Country not as much.

Exactly. By season 3 it's hopefully a hit and can afford bigger budgets or it's not and cancelled. Is heroes any harder to make than band of brothers 20 years ago? Although I'm sure that show cost a fortune at the time.

Someone needs to drop copies of the book by jeff Bezos he seems to like funding SFF shows these days

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