The First Law- But a Second Reread (or Third, or Fourth or Fi.....) spoilers for First Law books

[red snow]

On 3/11/2019 at 3:42 AM, A True Kaniggit said:

I was thinking about the Northmen and their named men. How they usually just had on a description to their birth names. Caul Shivers, Logen Ninefingers, Black Dow, Harding Grim, Red Beck.

Did we get the Dogman's birth name? I don't remember ever reading it.

Edit: And Bethod. How the hell does he not have a name?

I think Bethod settled for "king" and as others have said I don't think you earn a name through management it has to be direct action eg feats of bravery or receiving wounds. I don't think Bethod has done that, he uses others who then earn names.

Just read the showdown on the hill where Jezal gets his jaw handed to him. What seemed noteworthy was how Logen appeared to want b9 to appear but wasn't getting him. I found that interesting as i often thought it was more that logen was constantly fighting the B9 off. What if B9 is a time-share entity and has several hosts?

And to finish in wild speculation for the new trilogy. What if one of the new characters (maybe a child of logen) has the ability to speak to spirits. Is logen (presuming he's died a peaceful death since red country) is now a spirit and gets to guest star as a yoda/obi figure?

 

 

[A True Kaniggit]

15 minutes ago, red snow said:

And to finish in wild speculation for the new trilogy. What if one of the new characters (maybe a child of logen) has the ability to speak to spirits. Is logen (presuming he's died a peaceful death since red country) is now a spirit and gets to guest star as a yoda/obi figure?

 

I thought the spirits were pretty much another species. Not dead humans.

[red snow]

24 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I thought the spirits were pretty much another species. Not dead humans.

I'd never considered that and just thought they were like ghosts waiting to move on. But i guess they could be spirits like wights, fairies etc?

Does Joe confirm it one way or another? If it's your version i guess that does put B9 in the category of spirits are more likely thing.

Forgot to mention book 2 is certainly where Glokta dies some heavy lifting in making readers warm to him. Yes, he's torturing people under the truce of parley but we also see him doing things fir the greater good which was sorely lacking in book 1. He locks up an inquisitor for randonly torturing the locals, he immediately puts the dagoskan closed council to rights and all of his efforts in defending the city are steps in the right direction. It's interesting to me how he seems to transition from "how do i survive this" to almost relishing using the power from the authority of sult and the money from valint and balk. It's almost like glokta's problem has been serving in a position of little power where his lack of self worth made him bitter. He's still bitter now but there's more of a "spring in his step" and sense of compassion to the smaller people.

And it's easy to see why cosca became a character Joe couldn't resist returning to

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

I think Bethod settled for "king" and as others have said I don't think you earn a name through management it has to be direct action eg feats of bravery or receiving wounds. I don't think Bethod has done that, he uses others who then earn names.

Or doing something crazy like West (biting off someone's nose and being dubbed Furious). Or something embarrassing like Shivers (taking a piss drunk, falling in the river and losing his pants) or like Forley by simply being the weakest. 

 

1 hour ago, red snow said:

And to finish in wild speculation for the new trilogy. What if one of the new characters (maybe a child of logen) has the ability to speak to spirits. Is logen (presuming he's died a peaceful death since red country) is now a spirit and gets to guest star as a yoda/obi figure?

His kid with Ferro should be special. I'm actually quite surprised that we haven't heard more about Ferro given that she was superpowered by the end of the trilogy (apart from one line from Ishri in The Heroes about her brother being killed by a woman seeking vengeance).

 

[HexMachina]

It’s rather jarring that Bayaz doesnt notice anything amiss with Quai. I can’t tell if it’s just benefit of hindsight but it’s pretty clear something had changed with him.

There is even the line during the story about the war with Glustrod about creatures wearing the shapes of others at which Quai grins...

[A True Kaniggit]

6 hours ago, red snow said:

I'd never considered that and just thought they were like ghosts waiting to move on. But i guess they could be spirits like wights, fairies etc?

Does Joe confirm it one way or another? If it's your version i guess that does put B9 in the category of spirits are more likely thing.

I don't think Mister Abercrombie ever does. I just thought they were because of the behavior of the spirits we see, and Logen's view towards death. I mean, if he was actually talking to dead people, I don't think he'd view dying as " going back to the mud". He'd know there was an afterlife.

 

And I guess that's a negative on Dogman. What the hell is his original name? I hope we find out someday.

And it's just a guess, but I think "Dogman" because of his loyalty? Or maybe just sense of smell.

[HexMachina]

5 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I don't think Mister Abercrombie ever does. I just thought they were because of the behavior of the spirits we see, and Logen's view towards death. I mean, if he was actually talking to dead people, I don't think he'd view dying as " going back to the mud". He'd know there was an afterlife.

 

And I guess that's a negative on Dogman. What the hell is his original name? I hope we find out someday.

And it's just a guess, but I think "Dogman" because of his loyalty? Or maybe just sense of smell.

His sense of smell and his slightly doglike appearance probably (the pointy teeth)

I also got the sense that spirits were not just dead people/ghosts, again from the way they are presented and interact with Logen. 

[BigFatCoward]

Man, Benna is the biggest dick.  What was Monza thinking?  Its bad enough banging your brother, but if he's a waste of space as well its double troubling.

Cosca in Red Country breaks my heart compared to how he was in books 2,3,4. 

Yoru really gets around. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

Man, Benna is the biggest dick.  What was Monza thinking?  Its bad enough banging your brother, but if he's a waste of space as well its double troubling.

Cosca in Red Country breaks my heart compared to how he was in books 2,3,4. 

Yoru really gets around. 

1. Monza is not much better than Benna.  Slightly, but not much.  Ganmark summed her up during their duel, as did Carlot, when she described her as "thief, blackmailer, murderer of innocents, and keen practiser of incest."

2. Temple commented that Cosca had got worse. He goes from amusing rogue to complete shit.

[Consigliere]

13 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

It’s rather jarring that Bayaz doesnt notice anything amiss with Quai. I can’t tell if it’s just benefit of hindsight but it’s pretty clear something had changed with him.

Bayaz did suspect though. He mentions it TLAOK that he suspected Quai was not Quai for some time. He just had no idea that it was Tolomei and instead thought it was one of Khalul's Eaters.

[HexMachina]

7 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Bayaz did suspect though. He mentions it TLAOK that he suspected Quai was not Quai for some time. He just had no idea that it was Tolomei and instead thought it was one of Khalul's Eaters.

Ahh, interesting, i had forgotten that part. This reread is proving necessary, but as expected im way behind

[Maithanet]

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Bayaz did suspect though. He mentions it TLAOK that he suspected Quai was not Quai for some time. He just had no idea that it was Tolomei and instead thought it was one of Khalul's Eaters.

But why would he let one of Khalul's Eaters close to him?  What would be the point of that?  If there were ever a moment when Bayaz was vulnerable (such as happens in book 2), he would have been killed for sure.  I have to assume the only reason Tolomei didn't kill him then is that either she wanted the seed as well or she wanted to gloat in Bayaz's face, and thus dispatching him while he's unconscious wouldn't be good enough. 

[Consigliere]

5 hours ago, Maithanet said:

But why would he let one of Khalul's Eaters close to him?  What would be the point of that? 

Who knows? Keep your enemies close and all that. Plus Bayaz probably felt that he could handle one Eater and never anticipated that he might find himself incapacitated.

 

5 hours ago, Maithanet said:

If there were ever a moment when Bayaz was vulnerable (such as happens in book 2), he would have been killed for sure.  I have to assume the only reason Tolomei didn't kill him then is that either she wanted the seed as well or she wanted to gloat in Bayaz's face, and thus dispatching him while he's unconscious wouldn't be good enough. 

I think that Tolomei wanted the Seed above all else. She was well and truly under the influence of the Tellers. 

[apovsic]

Is there any hint how long ago Tolomei died? And was she ressurrected immidiatly after her death or just recently? What was she doing till now?

[SkynJay]

Tolomei didn't die did she?  I thought the story of her death was one of Bayaz' lies.

Nevermind, looks like she was buried at the very least...so more dead than i remembered.  

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, SkynJay said:

Tolomei didn't die did she?  I thought the story of her death was one of Bayaz' lies.

Nevermind, looks like she was buried at the very least...so more dead than i remembered.  

Bayaz killed Tolomei.  But her spirit endured, and the Tellers of Secrets brought her back into the world.  By eating Quai, she was able to take his form.

[unJon]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Bayaz killed Tolomei.  But her spirit endured, and the Tellers of Secrets brought her back into the world.  By eating Quai, she was able to take his form.

Damn I might need to do a reread. Who is the Teller of Secrets?

[Consigliere]

1 minute ago, unJon said:

Damn I might need to do a reread. Who is the Teller of Secrets?

Demons from the Other Side. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 3/14/2019 at 4:33 AM, SeanF said:

1. Monza is not much better than Benna.  Slightly, but not much.  Ganmark summed her up during their duel, as did Carlot, when she described her as "thief, blackmailer, murderer of innocents, and keen practiser of incest."

2. Temple commented that Cosca had got worse. He goes from amusing rogue to complete shit.

Meh, I think it’s more Cosca was always complete shit and Temple is now, starting to have a problem with that, or starting to recognize that. Cosca didn’t change. He was no worse or better than the man he was in “Before they are hanged” and in his introduction of “Best served cold”. Temple like Shy is coming to grips with who their father-figure really is. Temple’s falling out with Cosca also kinda reminds me of Logen’s falling out with Bethod. Both Temple and Logan rebel  due to their shifts in thinking simply can not abide working for their friend/master any longer, and start to see their master as a great evil, that helped largely to corrupt them. Temple like Logan initially gave “noble” reasons for why he’s supported Cosca-but those reasons simply aren’t true-at the very least they don’t tell the whole story. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

The naming was poorly thought out by Joe. Honestly, it kinda relies on everyone just being ok with the name their given. Like it’s an honor code or something. What if a named man literally  named someone “bad-smeller” or “piss-taker” or “bad at sex” . And how it’s been  exercised in story to be inconsistent. I mean Wonderful was not literally named Wonderful by Threetrees. All he really did was make a passing comment about it being “Wonderfully strange” seeing a woman take the type of military action Wonderful did. Yet people take it as if she was named in the same manner we see with Beck, or Shivers, or even West. And people dropped the strange part, because they didn’t like it showing, that names aren’t even set in stone when given.