The First Law- But a Second Reread (or Third, or Fourth or Fi.....) spoilers for First Law books

[SeanF]

34 minutes ago, red snow said:

Speaking of shivers, i enjoyed reading his debut today in BTAH. He was a lot cheerier and confident back then. Joe really puts him through the ringer

I think he reaches rock-bottom in The Heroes.

[red snow]

47 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think he reaches rock-bottom in The Heroes.

A highlight of red country was seeing a glimmer of his old self. Much like logen, i almost hope we don't see him as chances are it means his fortunes will slide again

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

Privately, though, Benna was even nastier than his sister.  

Yeah that’s true for most of Monza’s partners it seems. Romantic or platonic. Rogont, Cosca, and Benna are vastly more liked than Monza-largely because they’re male and aren’t under as much pressure to choose between being liked or respected/feared so they can stand to be more likeble to their male followers.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, red snow said:

A highlight of red country was seeing a glimmer of his old self. Much like logen, i almost hope we don't see him as chances are it means his fortunes will slide again

His Journey in BSC perfectly mirrors Logen’s quite frankly. Shivers like Logen kinda goes along with Monza much the way Logen did Bayaz. He doesn’t really ask a lot of questions, he mostly goes through the motions. For all he knows Monza was in fact evil avenging her evil brother. He doesn’t actually ask much about Benna’s death. Like Logen he tries to use his veneer of ignorance to basically offset any responsibility for his part in Bayaz’s plan whatever it maybe.  Shivers didn’t know Monza at all and the beginning and I look at his “moral” objections to be little more than token acts he does just to highlight he’s still a guy even though he’s helping kill and/or torture people for money.   It doesn’t really take much to even convince him to stay after Monza’s plans leads to the deaths of dozens of civilians. There’s always an excuse Shivers has ready when denying his true nature. Much like Logen. It honestly still irritates me on how he had the balls to tell Dogman he was never one to look for trouble after Dogman confronted him about Logen’s militaristic plans, and murder of Duru. They both often try to present themselves far more noble than they know they are.  Well at least until BSC for Shivers. Even near the end he demands Monza acknowledge his moral superiority-that he is a good man. Eventually Shivers turns on Monza much like Logen turned on Bethod when it appears their master is about to reach the apex of their power. Declaring their master the true evil one in their relationship. Though truth be told it’s likely their master was always better them or at least just as bad.

[red snow]

His behaviour in the heroes is also similar to the time logen felt months of his life disappear while bloody nine and starting wars for the fun if it. I guess shivers inadvertently ends a war with his violencr

Which is why his almost bloody nine moments were so tempting a theory due to the similarity in character. Although it could just be evidence that logen is insane too.

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 hours ago, red snow said:

His behaviour in the heroes is also similar to the time logen felt months of his life disappear while bloody nine and starting wars for the fun if it. I guess shivers inadvertently ends a war with his violencr

Which is why his almost bloody nine moments were so tempting a theory due to the similarity in character. Although it could just be evidence that logen is insane too.

I was never a fan of the Logen is insane theory. It kinda takes away the complexity of his character, and responsibility, he is sane, it’s just that he’s evil. 

Shivers time as Dow’s servant does seem similar to the worst time Logen was as he was still working for Bethod.

But Shivers does not end a war. He almost inadvertently prolongs the current one, Calder was less pressed to try to end the war as quickly as possible, as Dow was and kinda lands the north back into the hands of Bayaz, through murdering someone over their pride. If Logen hadn’t killed Redcliff’s son, Bethod would’ve been able to broach a peace, and would have never had gotten involved with Bayaz. If Shivers never murdered Dow, he would be able to broach a peace with the union without having to totally giving control of the North to Bayaz.  Dow looked to be getting sick of the Ghurkish interference in the north and the man may have chosen to avoid getting into conflicts with the the union at their behest. 

You know I suspect Dow was so publicly belittling of Shivers in part because he saw the similarities between Shivers and Logen and how Dow’s and Shivers relationship kinda mirrors it.

People became more scared of Logen than they did Bethod.

Dow’s mockery of Shivers may be an attempt to show to the public that people should fear him more than they fear Cold Shivers. 

[Jerry Drake]

That makes a lot of sense actually. You get a sense that Logen and crew were plucky independent gang, fighting it's own fight in the North. It is more likely like you state, Bethods wars and later Union's wars were prolonged through Bayaz's will and his manipulation of first Logen, then Jezal, then Shivers (at least in the Heroes).

It's an amusing thought, but perhaps not grounded in text: as Monza and Benna were brought up by Cosca, it seems almost like Benna turned out exactly like Cosca (especially in Red Country) while Monza turned out like Cosca imagined himself to be (or was, before alcohol and greed and other inner demons took over).

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Jerry Drake said:

 

That makes a lot of sense actually. You get a sense that Logen and crew were plucky independent gang, fighting it's own fight in the North. It is more likely like you state, Bethods wars and later Union's wars were prolonged through Bayaz's will and his manipulation of first Logen, then Jezal, then Shivers (at least in the Heroes).

 

I feel this talk of him influencing Dogman’s group is stretching it. Bayaz is no omincent or omnipresent. He’s,a genius, but  even he could not possibly account for every possible event. He has no way to have manipulated Dogman and co who so far have all shown to not be in his pocket.

I think it’s obvious he was always settling Bethod up to have ruled the north before the chieftain turned against the Wizard. 

2 hours ago, Jerry Drake said:

It's an amusing thought, but perhaps not grounded in text: as Monza and Benna were brought up by Cosca, it seems almost like Benna turned out exactly like Cosca (especially in Red Country) while Monza turned out like Cosca imagined himself to be (or was, before alcohol and greed and other inner demons took over).

I think it’s more Cosca hates Benna because the two are so similar-both manipulative, greedy, sociopathic, disloyal etc. I don’t think the Cosca we see in RCJ is the most similar to Benna. That Cosca is kinda becoming more infatuated with legacy. What people will say after I’m gone seems to be Cosca’s main worry. While in earlier books it was mainly just getting money and fame. Mostly money. 

I think he loves Monza because he sees her as so radically different than he knows he is. Cosca makes very clear, Monza in contrast to himself, actually tried to not waste lives, where as  he couldn’t if a soldier or two was wasted, he would’ve sold orphans into Slavery, Monza was prepared to face off the entire mercenary company by herself to protect them, Cosca switchs masters at whim, Monza was dutiful towards Orso and never really fostered any inclination towards disposing of the duke. 

 

[Jerry Drake]

I didn't mean that the whole Dogman's crew was influenced by Bayaz, rather that their adventure was setup by Bayaz influencing Logen / Bloody Nine one time, which set off things in motion that made Bethod wage more wars, which in turn ... And so on and so forth.

[Varysblackfyre321]

How does Bayaz feel about religion? I ask because he doesn’t appear to have utilized it the same way the Prophet has even though he could easily have increased his standing by saying he’s a messenger from god. The union is secular but by his design. So why not have allegiance to him be linked to enteral salvation?

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 3/18/2019 at 12:35 PM, BigFatCoward said:

Don't understand bayaz interfering in the heroes but with shit advice. With all his knowledge and experience why not be useful instead of an old useless overbearing cunt? 

Also Finree is just Ardee in a different body. 

I mean he brought along Canons. That was useful no?

[BigFatCoward]

57 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I mean he brought along Canons. That was useful no?

Not to the people who were operating and got blown up, but probably more of a benefit than a disbenefit. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 2/19/2019 at 6:04 AM, BigFatCoward said:

Just reading section where Logen is talking about he would talk with his comrades on his travels, described Bethod as 'like a brother' at one point, do we think this is nostalgia for a time that never truly existed, or was there a time when they had a healthy relationship?

Bethod makes clear he and Logen were close friends long ago in “Sharp Ends” so either they’re both being overly nostalgic about a time that never happened or their relationship did deteriorate over the time spent together. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Not to the people who were operating and got blown up, but probably more of a benefit than a disbenefit. 

I withdraw my objection then. 

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

How does Bayaz feel about religion? I ask because he doesn’t appear to have utilized it the same way the Prophet has even though he could easily have increased his standing by saying he’s a messenger from god. The union is secular but by his design. So why not have allegiance to him be linked to enteral salvation?

Joe was once asked why there is so little religion in the Union, and he said that Bayaz wanted to create a purely materialistic society.

Plainly, the supernatural is a part of this world, but the inhabitants of the Union deny it.

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, SeanF said:

Joe was once asked why there is so little religion in the Union, and he said that Bayaz wanted to create a purely materialistic society.

Ah, thanks. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Plainly, the supernatural is a part of this world, but the inhabitants of the Union deny it.

I think this is slightly unfair. Like what do you see as being so blantanly magical that was readily around the Union pre-Bayaz return? The House of the maker could be easily rationalized as simply more technologically advanced society that preceded the Union.  And  I imagine the Union in general is less skeptical of magic since Bayaz came back. 

[red snow]

Finished book 2 (I'm behind most of you). Not as enjoyable as the first time around - the failed quest loses a lot of impact the 2nd time around. The North was my favourite location (probably why I like the Heroes so much) and it had an impressive finale. The siege of Dagoska was a lot more anti-climatic than I recalled as well, leaving Glokta's story feeling like he'd started book 3 while the others were left to play catch up.

I did forget that Logen's spirit talking was vital in the ending of their quest - is this the last time we see him use this power? 

I'm probably going to fall further behind in the reread (we're all on vastly different schedules anyhow now) - I have the new expanse novel to read first

[Varysblackfyre321]

18 minutes ago, red snow said:

The siege of Dagoska was a lot more anti-climatic than I recalled as well, leaving Glokta's story feeling like he'd started book 3 while the others were left to play catch up.

Can you elaborate further?

[HexMachina]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

Joe was once asked why there is so little religion in the Union, and he said that Bayaz wanted to create a purely materialistic society.

Plainly, the supernatural is a part of this world, but the inhabitants of the Union deny it.

Yep. Jezal’s disbelief in Shanka being a good example