The First Law- But a Second Reread (or Third, or Fourth or Fi.....) spoilers for First Law books

[Maithanet]

And doesn't Logen have a shaved head in RC?  That makes people look pretty different, doubly so when you haven't seen them in 13 years.  I'm thinking about people I interacted with a good bit in 2006 and hadn't seen them since.  If they shaved their head, I doubt I'd recognize them. 

EDIT:  Yes, I think that Golden would have run off.  Unless he thinks he has something to gain from killing Logen (perhaps some notoriety?) Otherwise the reward probably isn't worth the risk, because I would think any Northman thinks that the Bloody Nine is supernatural and potentially cannot be killed by normal means.  I mean, anybody who saw Logen fight Fenris, you'd have to think that, right?  It's not confirmed in the text that Golden was there, but presumably he was.

[Consigliere]

1 minute ago, Maithanet said:

And doesn't Logen have a shaved head in RC?  That makes people look pretty different, doubly so when you haven't seen them in 13 years.  I'm thinking about people I interacted with a good bit in 2006 and hadn't seen them since.  If they shaved their head, I doubt I'd recognize them. 

Yeah. Faces tend to fade over time. There are many acquaintances who I haven't seen for 10+ years and their faces are all a blur. Logen and Golden were in the same camp for a time but they would have been no more than acquaintances who probably didn't spend any more time together than they absolutely had to. Golden also probably never spared a single thought on Logen over those 13 years. It would have been a bit weird if a close friend like the Dogman who spent many years alongside Logen didn't recognise him but not so much for Golden. 

[BigFatCoward]

16 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Yeah. Faces tend to fade over time. There are many acquaintances who I haven't seen for 10+ years and their faces are all a blur. Logen and Golden were in the same camp for a time but they would have been no more than acquaintances who probably didn't spend any more time together than they absolutely had to. Golden also probably never spared a single thought on Logen over those 13 years. It would have been a bit weird if a close friend like the Dogman who spent many years alongside Logen didn't recognise him but not so much for Golden. 

Agree on all of this, except logen is probably the most feared and possibly famous person in the whole north.  You remember those people.  Notorious people i've met once i remember more than some boring fucks i worked with for a couple of years.   

[BigFatCoward]

31 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I dont think the “eater gene” is inherited though is it? Having recently read Shickel’s little speech it sounds like those with the potential just randomly crop up in any family and are hunted by Khalul to train. Unless there is something later im forgetting about where an eater has eater children?

i'm most of the way through Red Country and there hasn't been any mention of this.  Also, if Khalul only has 200 or so eaters, i assume that is because how rare they are, if they could just produce new ones this way i assume that would be more efficient than going searching for them.

[Consigliere]

3 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Agree on all of this, except logen is probably the most feared and possibly famous person in the whole north.  You remember those people.  Notorious people i've met once i remember more than some boring fucks i worked with for a couple of years.   

True. But then we come back to Stone Splitter and Crow not recognising Logen either. Given that all of 13 years had passed and Golden would hardly have spared a single thought for a mere acquaintance thought dead, it shouldn't be too hard to swallow that upon seeing some shaven-headed Northman he didn't immediately go "holy shit, it's the Bloody Nine!" And while Logen was  once the most feared man in the North, after 13 years of being presumed dead that infamy is bound to fade especially in a land with no shortage of notoriously violent men.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Consigliere said:

True. But then we come back to Stone Splitter

He was probably a complete stranger to Logen all together. He could have met, or seen Logen up close in his life(we don’t know enough about him to definitely say one way or the other), but odds are he like most northmen wouldn’t have seen the Bloodynine up-close and thus couldn’t actually tell you who Logen in say a line up of big and scarred northmen if asked to do just that. 

3 hours ago, Consigliere said:

and Crow not recognising Logen either.

Darkness tends to make people harder to recognize lol. 

3 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Given that all of 13 years had passed and Golden would hardly have spared a single thought for a mere acquaintance thought dead,

I actually don’t think mushings about nine-fingers would be that rare among Dow’s higher-ups. I mean he was thought to be dead and gone before, but Logen did come back with a vengeance. Rumors of him having survived Dow’s encounter where bound to spring up given a body was never recovered. Hell even Calder after 13 years fears the prospect of the man returning he sent Shivers to investigate claims of Logen’s whereabouts.

3 hours ago, Consigliere said:

, it shouldn't be too hard to swallow that upon seeing some shaven-headed Northman he didn't immediately go "holy shit, it's the Bloody Nine!" And while Logen was  once the most feared man in the North, after 13 years of being presumed dead that infamy is bound to fade especially in a land with no shortage of notoriously violent men.

It actually doesn’t appear Logen’s infamy has faded. At least not significantly. Shivers comments(weirdly) on how while great names like Threetrees, Dow, and Bethod no longer garner song around the campfire people still talk of the B9.

Though I grant you age, and a change of hair style could effect someone’s recognition of someone and hell it can’t be missed Golden is kinda deep in his own thoughts, you know on his failures, the slights he’s borne etc but I think Logen’s face to a Northman whose actually saw him up close should recognize him after just over a decade period. Like you’d probably remember a co-worker who was your boss’s favorit, and who eventually killed your boss and took his place. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

Is there any hint of Monza’s son possibility being shivers?  Or is that an impossibility?

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, Maithanet said:

EDIT:  Yes, I think that Golden would have run off.  Unless he thinks he has something to gain from killing Logen (perhaps some notoriety?) Otherwise the reward probably isn't worth the risk, because I would think any Northman thinks that the Bloody Nine is supernatural and potentially cannot be killed by normal means.  I mean, anybody who saw Logen fight Fenris, you'd have to think that, right?  It's not confirmed in the text that Golden was there, but presumably he was.

Meh, maybe he panicked and simply resorted to fighting out of sheer reflex? I don’t know. I think maybe Golden’s shame was a factor here. He was never able to live down being chased away from the North. If he runs away here he may be finished all together-his reputation again in shatters, and any chance at redemption he had lost. In which case life may not be worth living to him anyway. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Is there any hint of Monza’s son possibility being shivers?  Or is that an impossibility?

It's quite possible Shivers is the father.

[Varysblackfyre321]

15 hours ago, red snow said:

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Glokta could threaten but Ardee and especially the child would have the social stigma. Which yes he could go around torturing anyone who says anything bad about them but it's just as effective to say "it's my child, care to contradict me". Then it's a clear insult to him and not just Ardee and the child. Plus, i think Glokta will probably like to have a child which from his torture sounds unlikely to do so naturally. 

I think the ship for avoiding social-stigma has sailed for Ardree and the child. Glocka may be feared, but he’s not really respected, he’s reviled as a Spider, a monster, there’s bound to be some chuckling Ardree for having slept with and married such a wretch. Jezal’s child probably will also be mocked behind their back because of their supposed patronage. 

15 hours ago, red snow said:

I'm still slightly dreading how the relationship between Glokta and the child will turn out. Joe's cynicism would suggest the kid will hate Glokta and probably accuse him of not being their dad. But he also likes to buck trends/expectations and i would like it if the two of them have a genuinely loving relationship irrespective of how they might treat everyone else.

I mean we already got a step-father type arrangement in RCJ with Shy and Lamb. Shy, Pit and even Ro loved lamb as their father. I imagine Glocka’s and Ardree’s child’s relationship would probably be at worst awkward but not actively hostile. I don think Ardree’s kid would be told they’re a royal bastard. Well at least not until they’re grown. 

15 hours ago, red snow said:

I think you have a point regarding Bayaz, he often seems to control through "soft power" friendship and respect first (logen, Jezal, his running of the union, the bank) but is happy to resort to threats and blackmail. In book 2 Bayaz is clearly trying to establish a "wise advisor" relationship with Jezal and does seem to be teaching him how to be a good king. Although Bayaz has to be careful he doesn't create a king so popular that his subjects side with Jezal against Bayaz. Something that seems to have happened in the past.

 I think Bayaz basically screwing the people who were instrumental to Jezal to become King, was to temper the level of popularity Jezal could  have had. Why support someone who will never reward you for your investment?  It further isolated him and made Jezal more reliant upon the wizard. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It's quite possible Shivers is the father.

I wonder do you think that could have influenced her decision to let Shivers go?

[Argonath Diver]

It probably is Shivers' kid, and that is going to be one stubborn little bastard!

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I wonder do you think that could have influenced her decision to let Shivers go?

Very likely.  Also, she felt some guilt at turning Shivers into such a cruel man.

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Very likely.  Also, she felt some guilt at turning Shivers into such a cruel man.

You know I like this theory but I’m still hesitant about it. Like isn’t the last time they actually had sex just before they were captured and tortured? It’d a take good while for Momza and co to have met with up Rogont. I don’t know shouldn’t she’d have noticed something amiss with her? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 3/30/2019 at 9:22 AM, Argonath Diver said:

It probably is Shivers' kid, and that is going to be one stubborn little bastard!

From what we see of him in Sharp Ends, he looks kinda more similar to his Uncle Benna in terms of personality than he does either of his potential fathers. Like it appears he likes being liked, as Benna did. I expect Monza probably has developed a similar partnership with her son that she did with her brother. To where she plays the ruthless, totally ice-cold general and her son plays the pretty, and affable dignitary, who’ll work more effectively at politics/sceming  than he does war.

[apovsic]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

From what we see of him in Sharp Ends, he looks kinda more similar to his Uncle Benna in terms of personality than he does either of his potential fathers. Like it appears he likes being liked, as Benna did. I expect Monza probably has developed a similar partnership with her son that she did with her brother. To where she plays the ruthless, totally ice-cold general and her son plays the pretty, and affable dignitary, who’ll work more effectively at politics/sceming  than he does war.

Well, I hope it won't be to similar...

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 minutes ago, apovsic said:

Well, I hope it won't be to similar...

I get your meaning. I don't think Joe would even have Monza smash uglies with her own son. 

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I get your meaning. I don't think Joe would even have Monza smash uglies with her own son. 

That would be disturbing.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

From what we see of him in Sharp Ends, he looks kinda more similar to his Uncle Benna in terms of personality than he does either of his potential fathers. Like it appears he likes being liked, as Benna did. I expect Monza probably has developed a similar partnership with her son that she did with her brother. To where she plays the ruthless, totally ice-cold general and her son plays the pretty, and affable dignitary, who’ll work more effectively at politics/sceming  than he does war.

Privately, though, Benna was even nastier than his sister.  

[red snow]

On 3/30/2019 at 5:14 PM, SeanF said:

Very likely.  Also, she felt some guilt at turning Shivers into such a cruel man.

Speaking of shivers, i enjoyed reading his debut today in BTAH. He was a lot cheerier and confident back then. Joe really puts him through the ringer