Larry of the Lawn Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: So you punished people for something they 'had no idea' was offensive? Yes, wouldn't you? My supervisor at a job I worked from 2005-2009, same age as me, 35, went to Texas A&M. She said that on Martin Luther King Day her sorority threw a party where they served grape soda spiked with booze, malt liquor, fried chicken, and watermelon. She didn't think it was offensive. This party would have been around 2002 or 2003. I'd hope that the school would have taken similar action to what Tywin described, regardless of whether or not the sorority thought it was offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, Cas Stark said: He didn't say they refused to acknowledge it was wrong, but that they legitimately did not intend or know their actions would cause offense. My point is that punishing people for actions that are done in good faith because somebody somewhere is offended is puritanical, unAmerican and if this country had not lost its mind normal, reasonable people would be offended by the mere idea of doing it. So you really keep on saying it's only offensive/an offense, when they intended it to be offensive... It's a really bizarre argumentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: Me, I concluded long ago that she was a liar, a hypocrite, a self promoter selling a destructive brand of outrage. I suspect you would come to a different conclusion. Well I guess not every one can be an astute and serious policy wonk and "numbers guy" like Paul Ryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, A Horse Named Stranger said: So you really keep on saying it's only offensive an offense, when they intended it to be offensive... It's a really bizarre argumentation. No, it's an argument grounded in centuries of legal doctrine where the standard was objective fact and intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, larrytheimp said: Yes, wouldn't you? My supervisor at a job I worked from 2005-2009, same age as me, 35, went to Texas A&M. She said that on Martin Luther King Day her sorority through a party where they served grape soda spiked with booze, malt liquor, fried chicken, and watermelon. She didn't think it was offensive. This party would have been around 2002 or 2003. I'd hope that the school would have taken similar action to what Tyson described, regardless of whether or not the sorority thought it was offensive. No. I would seek to explain the reasons why X group was offended and attempt to use it as a learning experience for everyone. Then, if they continued the behavior after having been informed of it's offensiveness, that would be the time for punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, Cas Stark said: No, it's an argument grounded in centuries of legal doctrine where the standard was objective fact and intent. (Ignoring that this isn't happening in a court room and legal doctrine means fuck all) What legal doctrine is this? Ignorance is not, nor has every been, a defence when breaking the law. "I didn't know it was illegal" means nothing. So why would "I didn't know it was offensive" be a defence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: Well I guess not every one can be an astute and serious policy wonk and "numbers guy" like Paul Ryan. LOL, but what does Paul Ryan have to do with this? Did he masquerade as a minority, too? I get it, you like her, and her policies, that's fine. I don't like either, and that should be fine too. It shouldn't subject me to incendiary negative labels or being accused of peddling BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: No. I would seek to explain the reasons why X group was offended and attempt to use it as a learning experience for everyone. Then, if they continued the behavior after having been informed of it's offensiveness, that would be the time for punishment. See, the thing is this shit doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's not like these were exchange students from Mars. If you don't realize as a college student that this shit isn't just offensive but wrong, it's out of more than ignorance. And losing fraternity privileges isn't even much of a punishment. They just went back to being regular students. It's not like they were suspended or expelled anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, TrueMetis said: (Ignoring that this isn't happening in a court room and legal doctrine means fuck all) What legal doctrine is this? Ignorance is not, nor has every been, a defence when breaking the law. "I didn't know it was illegal" means nothing. So why would "I didn't know it was offensive" be a defence? It is an objective vs. a subjective standard. Surely, you can see the danger of allowing the alleged victims to define the offense rather than there being an objective standard that is not dependent on anyone's individualized perception? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 18 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: Me, I concluded long ago that she was a liar, a hypocrite, a self promoter selling a destructive brand of outrage. I suspect you would come to a different conclusion. And when I read this I see the absolutely typical angry male attitude towards women who do exactly what men do. Warren is damn smart and moved her career up by changing jobs, the way people do these days and have been doing for the last 30 or 40 years. 40 years ago if you changed jobs after five years they said you were unreliable and unstable, today if you haven't moved they wonder what's wrong with you. A self=promoter indeed, weasel words for 'aggressive'. Damn those aggressive women! Liars and hypocrites! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, larrytheimp said: See, the thing is this shit doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's not like these were exchange students from Mars. If you don't realize as a college student that this shit isn't just offensive but wrong, it's out of more than ignorance. And losing fraternity privileges isn't even much of a punishment. They just went back to being regular students. It's not like they were suspended or expelled anything I'm only going by what Tywin said which is that they had no idea what they were doing was offensive. So, I would say, they should not have been punished. If they keep on doing the same thing once it has been explained, that's different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Cas Stark said: It is an objective vs. a subjective standard. Surely, you can see the danger of allowing the alleged victims to define the offense rather than there being an objective standard that is not dependent on anyone's individualized perception? Using racial and ethnic stereotypes as a party theme is objectively wrong. Perception doesn't enter into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, Fragile Bird said: And when I read this I see the absolutely typical angry male attitude towards women who do exactly what men do. Warren is damn smart and moved her career up by changing jobs, the way people do these days and have been doing for the last 30 or 40 years. 40 years ago if you changed jobs after five years they said you were unreliable and unstable, today if you haven't moved they wonder what's wrong with you. A self=promoter indeed, weasel words for 'aggressive'. Damn those aggressive women! Liars and hypocrites! What makes you think I'm a man? Projection much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Cas Stark said: I'm only going by what Tywin said which is that they had no idea what they were doing was offensive. So, I would say, they should not have been punished. If they keep on doing the same thing once it has been explained, that's different. They had their fucking frat privileges revoked for a year. I don't know what kind of special snowflake would call that 'punishment'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: LOL, but what does Paul Ryan have to do with this? Did he masquerade as a minority, too? I get it, you like her, and her policies, that's fine. I don't like either, and that should be fine too. It shouldn't subject me to incendiary negative labels or being accused of peddling BS. I'm checking how credible you are on this topic. Because in my experience people that would claim that Warren is fraud, would in the same breath declare what genius and serious person Paul Ryan is. Or how wonderful Trump is. In fact some of the biggest Warren detractors are ardent Trumpist, as if they have any credibility. It's good you think Paul Ryan is a bullshit artist. That makes you a bit more credible. Anyway, as far as loving Warren's policies. It's true I like most of them. But, I do have an issue with her on at least one of them and that is her bill with Vitter on the FED's discount window, which I think was a mistake on her part and bad policy. I consider the Bagehot rule to a first defense against banking panics, So no I don't play team Democrat all the time, though I make no bones in saying the Republican Party at this time, along with the conservative movement, is an utter fucking mess, even if Democrats screw up once in awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: It is an objective vs. a subjective standard. Surely, you can see the danger of allowing the alleged victims to define the offense rather than there being an objective standard that is not dependent on anyone's individualized perception? And from what magical place are you going to get this objective standard? Cause jesus fuck dude, if using ethnic stereotypes for a party isn't objectively offensive than what the fuck is? 6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I'm only going by what Tywin said which is that they had no idea what they were doing was offensive. So, I would say, they should not have been punished. If they keep on doing the same thing once it has been explained, that's different. "they had no idea speeding down a crowded street was dangerous. So, I would say, they should not have been punished. If they keep on doing the same thing once it has been explained, that's different." You brought up legal standard. Legally no one gives a shit if they knew about their actions impact. Intent in law is not whether you intended the result, but whether you intended the action that caused the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: No, it's an argument grounded in centuries of legal doctrine where the standard was objective fact and intent. Hahahahahahahahahahaahahahhaha! Try that after you tell the police officer you didn't know you were speeding and would like to apologize. The point is being deliberately clueless and thoughtless and using that as a defense. And Trump had nooooooooo idea half his staff at golf courses were undocumented workers. If only he had known those drug dealers and murderers were there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Fragile Bird said: Hahahahahahahahahahaahahahhaha! Try that after you tell the police officer you didn't know you were speeding and would like to apologize. The point is being deliberately clueless and thoughtless and using that as a defense. And Trump had nooooooooo idea half his staff at golf courses were undocumented workers. If only he had known those drug dealers and murderers were there! If I am speeding that is an objective fact, it doesn't require anyone's perception or interpretation. If X is offended by Y, that is a subjective standard, always changing, maybe even always different depending on the specific individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: What makes you think I'm a man? Projection much? Ahhhh. you're a woman who likes to piss on other women? Even better! Adopt the male attitudes towards women! You see it so much. 53% of white women voted for Trump, right? The guy who who was pro-abortion who spun around on a dime to get Evangelical support, and they sold out their rights to control their bodies just like that, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, Fragile Bird said: Ahhhh. your a woman who likes to piss on other women? Even better! Adopt the male attitudes towards women! You see it so much. 53% of white women voted for Trump, right? The guy who who was pro-abortion who spun around on a dime to get Evangelical support, and they sold out their rights to control their bodies just like that, Why does it matter? Why do you want to use my gender as ammunition against me in a debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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