Daenerys (very likely) has Stark ancestry

[Ser Hedge]

FaB contains this little nugget that Visenya and Rhaenys arranged the marriage of one of Torrhen Stark's daughters to Ronnel Arryn. So if Lord Rodrik Arryn is a descendant of theirs (likely a great-grandson) - and not from a parallel line/cadet branch because the main Arryn line died out- that gives Aemma Arryn, Rhaenyra and hence Aegon III's and Viserys II's descendants some Stark ancestry. So theoretically Dany has (a tiny portion of) Stark 'blood'. Applying modern generic theory, you could probably argue that the influence could be so faint that is immaterial, but I guess all the arguments about Ice & Fire being all about Stark and Targaryen blood 'mixing' (and that's why R sought out L) sound a little bit less convincing, as Rhaenyra would be the first Westerosi to have both bloodlines (and a fat lot of good it did her, eh?) I wonder if there is a reason GRRM threw this titbit in. (If it was already in TWOIAF I missed it sorry) Maybe we are meant to focus less on bloodlines and consider Ice and Fire symbolically?

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Edit: As forum members have pointed out, Ronnel was succeeded by his cousin Hubbert, so Aemma Arryn and her defendants are not descended from Torrhen's line after all. The most likely source for a Stark gene now is a daughter of Cregan and Aly that might have married Seth Blackwood, but this is not canon (yet). If you can find any reference to a Stark marriage outside of the North in the days before the conquest, please post it here.

[Dorian Martell's son]

38 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

FaB contains this little nugget that Visenya and Rhaenys arranged the marriage of one of Torrhen Stark's daughters to Ronnel Arryn. So if Lord Rodrik Arryn is a descendant of theirs (likely a great-grandson) - and not from a parallel line/cadet branch because the main Arryn line died out- that gives Aemma Arryn, Rhaenyra and hence Aegon III's and Viserys II's descendants some Stark ancestry. So theoretically Dany has (a tiny portion of) Stark 'blood'. Applying modern generic theory, you could probably argue that the influence could be so faint that is immaterial, but I guess all the arguments about Ice & Fire being all about Stark and Targaryen blood 'mixing' (and that's why R sought out L) sound a little bit less convincing, as Rhaenyra would be the first Westerosi to have both bloodlines (and a fat lot of good it did her, eh?) I wonder if there is a reason GRRM threw this titbit in. (If it was already in TWOIAF I missed it sorry) Maybe we are meant to focus less on bloodlines and consider Ice and Fire symbolically?

The point is that things like "Kingsblood" is bullshit. Almost every major family is somehow connected to the royal line, and with the concept of First night, as shown in the "dragon seeds" huge swaths of the common folk have kingsblood as well.  

[Vaith]

49 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

FaB contains this little nugget that Visenya and Rhaenys arranged the marriage of one of Torrhen Stark's daughters to Ronnel Arryn. So if Lord Rodrik Arryn is a descendant of theirs (likely a great-grandson) - and not from a parallel line/cadet branch because the main Arryn line died out- that gives Aemma Arryn, Rhaenyra and hence Aegon III's and Viserys II's descendants some Stark ancestry. So theoretically Dany has (a tiny portion of) Stark 'blood'. Applying modern generic theory, you could probably argue that the influence could be so faint that is immaterial, but I guess all the arguments about Ice & Fire being all about Stark and Targaryen blood 'mixing' (and that's why R sought out L) sound a little bit less convincing, as Rhaenyra would be the first Westerosi to have both bloodlines (and a fat lot of good it did her, eh?) I wonder if there is a reason GRRM threw this titbit in. (If it was already in TWOIAF I missed it sorry) Maybe we are meant to focus less on bloodlines and consider Ice and Fire symbolically?

This branch died out. Ronnel was killed by his own brother, who was killed by Maegor, and their cousin thus became Lord of the Eyrie.

However, there may be another link. While I can't completely recall, I think that on Blood of Dragons Ran and Linda once said there was a daughter of Cregan Stark who married a Blackwood. Dany's great-grandmother was Betha Blackwood, so that's a distant link too. Even if not, you can imagine that there might have been a Stark-Blackwood marriage (or a Blackwood marriage to someone with Stark ancestry) over the years. Most of the Westerosi families are very old, dating from the Andal invasion or the First Men, so I think she's going to be descended from a lot of obscure houses to some distant degree.

However, if there was anything to The Prophecy, there's no reason that Rhaegar would have thought this meant a direct child of a Targaryen and a Stark, rather than going through various other houses.

12 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The point is that things like "Kingsblood" is bullshit. Almost every major family is somehow connected to the royal line, and with the concept of First night, as shown in the "dragon seeds" huge swaths of the common folk have kingsblood as well.  

No magic in Planetos is a 1:1 hard magic. If there is power in Kingsblood, it's based on public perception. If you burn Jaehaerys I Targaryen, that sacrifice is going to be a pretty big boost for the R'hllor faith. Someone like Willow, daughter of Aegon IV, eh, not so much.

[norwaywolf123]

10 hours ago, Vaith said:

This branch died out. Ronnel was killed by his own brother, who was killed by Maegor, and their cousin thus became Lord of the Eyrie.

What happened to Ronnel's kids?

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

5 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

What happened to Ronnel's kids?

He had none.

[norwaywolf123]

3 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

He had none.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ronnel_Arryn_(king)

This link says that he had 'issue'.

[Ser Hedge]

11 hours ago, Vaith said:

This branch died out. Ronnel was killed by his own brother, who was killed by Maegor, and their cousin thus became Lord of the Eyrie.

However, there may be another link. While I can't completely recall, I think that on Blood of Dragons Ran and Linda once said there was a daughter of Cregan Stark who married a Blackwood. Dany's great-grandmother was Betha Blackwood, so that's a distant link too. Even if not, you can imagine that there might have been a Stark-Blackwood marriage (or a Blackwood marriage to someone with Stark ancestry) over the years. Most of the Westerosi families are very old, dating from the Andal invasion or the First Men, so I think she's going to be descended from a lot of obscure houses to some distant degree.

Thank you Vaith, good point.

1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ronnel_Arryn_(king)

This link says that he had 'issue'.

I guess that could be a daughter? This line could have married back into the ruling line of Arryns descending from cousin Hubert in keeping with historical and Westorosi dynastic practice to strengthen legitimacy, but I guess we don't have any evidence and are not likely to get any as FaB has now moved past this point in history. Betha Blackwood is the most promising angle at this point to get confirmation on Dany's Stark ancestry, though there could of course be other possibilities (say via House Royce who are likely to have married into House Arryn at some point before the conquest).

Again, I don't think there is any special significance to post-Dance Targaryens or at the least Aegon V's descendants possessing Stark genes, but it's just to point out this isn't the likely interpretation of  the Ice and Fire theme.

That said the magic 'framework' on Planetos is pretty random so far, as I guess magic in a Fantasy series has licence to be :-)

[Vaith]

1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ronnel_Arryn_(king)

This link says that he had 'issue'.

I am not sure what that refers to. It could be passed over daughters, it could be deceased children - regardless, Daenerys, Aemma and Rodrik are descendants of Hubert Arryn, not Ronnel.

[norwaywolf123]

8 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I am not sure what that refers to. It could be passed over daughters, it could be deceased children - regardless, Daenerys, Aemma and Rodrik are descendants of Hubert Arryn, not Ronnel.

If Rodrik had daughters they could have been married into Hubert's line as to strenghten it's claim.

[norwaywolf123]

1 hour ago, Ser Hedge said:

Thank you Vaith, good point.

I guess that could be a daughter? This line could have married back into the ruling line of Arryns descending from cousin Hubert in keeping with historical and Westorosi dynastic practice to strengthen legitimacy, but I guess we don't have any evidence and are not likely to get any as FaB has now moved past this point in history. Betha Blackwood is the most promising angle at this point to get confirmation on Dany's Stark ancestry, though there could of course be other possibilities (say via House Royce who are likely to have married into House Arryn at some point before the conquest).

Again, I don't think there is any special significance to post-Dance Targaryens or at the least Aegon V's descendants possessing Stark genes, but it's just to point out this isn't the likely interpretation of  the Ice and Fire theme.

That said the magic 'framework' on Planetos is pretty random so far, as I guess magic in a Fantasy series has licence to be :-)

Bolded, it is possible.

 

The Blackwood and the Starks have married each other multiple times. There is probably Stark ancestors in Betha Blackwood's family tree, allthough they may be very distant.

[Bernie Mac]

7 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

If Rodrik had daughters they could have been married into Hubert's line as to strenghten it's claim.

The Vale seems to accept female rulers, Jeyne Arryn proves that. If there was a daughter she would have inherited.

[The Wondering Wolf]

2 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ronnel_Arryn_(king)

This link says that he had 'issue'.

The wiki is not canon. It is based on canon. A child of Ronnel is never mentioned anywhere in text.

Look here as well. 

 

[Vaith]

8 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The wiki is not canon. It is based on canon. A child of Ronnel is never mentioned anywhere in text.

Look here as well. 

 

Thank you. I was scratching my head trying to think where this was mentioned. I suppose it's a leftover assumption from before we knew that Ronnel died and had no kids (I think only his marriage to a Stark was originally mentioned in TWOIAF).

[The Wondering Wolf]

6 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Thank you. I was scratching my head trying to think where this was mentioned. I suppose it's a leftover assumption from before we knew that Ronnel died and had no kids (I think only his marriage to a Stark was originally mentioned in TWOIAF).

I think it came from the report of a Sons of the Dragon reading in 2014, around the same time the Worldbook was published.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

Dany has Blackwood ancestry and multiple Blackwood women have married into house Stark, so it would not surprise me if many Stark women married into house Blackwood.

[Ser Hedge]

53 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Dany has Blackwood ancestry and multiple Blackwood women have married into house Stark, so it would not surprise me if many Stark women married into house Blackwood.

If we're looking for definitive proof of Stark genes in Egg's descendents then this is the most likely angle that could give us confirmation via FaB II or the remaining Dunk and Egg stories. Otherwise, we're unlikely to see House Stark in House Dayne's, Martell's, Rogarre's or Velaryon's family trees (the only houses other than Blackwood or Arryn in the entire Targaryen family tree, the Alicent Hightower line having died out). I somehow get the feeling that House Stark marrying into first men houses south of the neck is a fairly recent (post-conquest or even post-Dance) phenomenon. Is there any evidence of Stark-Royce marriage alliances before the conquest, out of curiosity? It's not impossible of course, given they were two of the most dominant houses in the pre-Andal world.

[Lord Varys]

Betha Blackwood being Dany's great-grandmother makes it very likely indeed that the Targaryens have multiple Starks among their (distant) ancestors.

Even more so, if Bloodraven inherited his skinchanger/greenseer talents (assuming this is a genetic talent/trait at all) from the Blackwood then Dany may have inherited that, too.

But even without the Blackwoods nobility in Westeros almost exclusively intermarry amongst themselves, and ancestors double with each generation. Even the Velaryons and especially the Arryns may have some Stark ancestors - some of the peace treaties between Winterfell and the Eyrie during the millennium-long war over the Three Sisters may have been sealed by marriage between the direwolf and the falcon. And the Targaryens are all descended from Aemma Arryn and Lord Rodrik Arryn.

In that sense, the chances that the Targaryens are descended from some Starks are actually pretty high. They could have nearly all the houses of Westeros among their most distant ancestors - simply through the non-Valyrian ancestors of the Velaryons, Arryns, Martells, Daynes, and Blackwoods that married into House Targaryen.

[Vaith]

8 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

If we're looking for definitive proof of Stark genes in Egg's descendents then this is the most likely angle that could give us confirmation via FaB II or the remaining Dunk and Egg stories. Otherwise, we're unlikely to see House Stark in House Dayne's, Martell's, Rogarre's or Velaryon's family trees (the only houses other than Blackwood or Arryn in the entire Targaryen family tree, the Alicent Hightower line having died out). I somehow get the feeling that House Stark marrying into first men houses south of the neck is a fairly recent (post-conquest or even post-Dance) phenomenon. Is there any evidence of Stark-Royce marriage alliances before the conquest, out of curiosity? It's not impossible of course, given they were two of the most dominant houses in the pre-Andal world.

As Varys says, such a union after the Three Sisters war is likely. Plus, maybe the Martells would have Stark blood in a convoluted way: 

Let’s say a Stark princess marries an Arryn king, whose daughter marries a Durrandon king, whose youngest son marries a Martell ruling princess. Not the most implausible scenario. Over 8000-4000-1000 years you are going to get some links like that in the old families.

[Ser Hedge]

@Lord Varys and @Vaith these are very plausible scenarios agreed, but it's just that FaB gives this impression that the conqueror's sisters seemed to be very hard at work looking to bind houses *across* the different kingdoms together to make them think of themselves as part of a greater realm, in a way suggesting that this was not necessarily the norm before. Of course, not being the norm doesn't mean it didn't happen and you can see ruling houses of the seven kingdoms seal a treaty with a marriage pact as you say. Before there were seven kingdoms there were hundreds of course, but the lack of kingroads and frequent wars all over the place might again have meant interaction between houses would have remained inside their natural geographies, with kings marrying their children to bannermen or neighbouring kings.

I'm still curious about the Torrhen-Arryn alliance easter egg was dropped only for the trail to turn cold soon after with Ronnel not managing to produce a heir :-)

I looked through the family trees on the wiki, but unfortunately we don't have details of Cregan and Alys' daughters' marriages, so we'll still have to stay tuned for definitive proof or is there a way non-players can access data from from Blood of Dragons please?

[Vaith]

10 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

@Lord Varys and @Vaith these are very plausible scenarios agreed, but it's just that FaB gives this impression that the conqueror's sisters seemed to be very hard at work looking to bind houses *across* the different kingdoms together to make them think of themselves as part of a greater realm, in a way suggesting that this was not necessarily the norm before. Of course, not being the norm doesn't mean it didn't happen and you can see ruling houses of the seven kingdoms seal a treaty with a marriage pact as you say. Before there were seven kingdoms there were hundreds of course, but the lack of kingroads and frequent wars all over the place might again have meant interaction between houses would have remained inside their natural geographies, with kings marrying their children to bannermen or neighbouring kings.

I'm still curious about the Torrhen-Arryn alliance easter egg was dropped only for the trail to turn cold soon after with Ronnel not managing to produce a heir :-)

I looked through the family trees on the wiki, but unfortunately we don't have details of Cregan and Alys' daughters' marriages, so we'll still have to stay tuned for definitive proof or is there a way non-players can access data from from Blood of Dragons please?

We see marriages like Lannister-Hoare and Blackwood-Durrandon in the pre-Conquest days in TWOIAF. I think the difference is that kings would probably marry other royals somewhat frequently, the nobles within the regions would be somewhat insular. What I mean is that a Stark-Arryn marriage might not have been that extraordinary, but the daughters of Lord Tarth marrying Harlaws and Corbrays would be before the Conquest.

But even so, such marriages would trickle down. If a Gardener king marries an Arryn, then over the centuries there will likely be distant Arryn blood in House Rowan, Oakheart, Hightower, etc. through the marriages of their princesses. Just my own take, though.

As for Blood of Dragons...

https://www.westeros.org/BoD/Houses/ has extensive trees, though bear in mind that the large majority of characters are made up by Ran and Linda for the purposes of people being able to roleplay in various Houses. The houses were also originally devised back in the 2000s, so various workarounds have been implemented or need to be implemented post-TWOIAF and F&B.

In particular, there was a Marian Stark who married Seth Blackwood, heir to Raventree. House Stark is still undergoing a post-TWOIAF workaround, and I believe Linda once said that they eventually plan to make Marian a daughter of Cregan who married a Blackwood, and she said that the marriages of many Stark daughters were cut from the final TWOIAF tree (makes sense, as nearly all Stark daughters over the past 200 years would be old maids if the family tree were complete).