Daenerys (very likely) has Stark ancestry

[Ser Hedge]

Awesome thank you @Vaith

[norwaywolf123]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Vale seems to accept female rulers, Jeyne Arryn proves that. If there was a daughter she would have inherited.

That is possible, but we don't have much knowledge of the specifics. Perhaps Ronnel had a daughter that was married or betrothed to Hubbert Arryns son? Then Ronnels brother may get angry and feel passed over. Still we can't know for certain. Perhaps your right.

[Lord Varys]

Marriages between the royal families of neighboring/warring kingdoms should have been pretty common before the Conquest, simply because this was a good way to seal an alliance against another kingdom or to create a peace after a war.

It would not have happened all that often, one assumes, but it would have happened. And this way the Starks, Arryns, Lannisters, Durrandons, Gardeners, and even Martells would have gotten somewhat interrelated, meaning that the chances are not that bad that other houses - the Targaryens - intermarrying with some of them would be descended from such unions.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Betha Blackwood being Dany's great-grandmother makes it very likely indeed that the Targaryens have multiple Starks among their (distant) ancestors.

If I'm not mistaken, Dany is related to all current Starks through the Blackwoods.

[Vaith]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

If I'm not mistaken, Dany is related to all current Starks through the Blackwoods.

There is no 100% example of a Stark woman marrying Lord Blackwood, only the other way round (Blackwood woman marries Lord Stark).

At the moment, we can only be sure that the Blackwoods are mutual cousins of the Targaryens and Starks alike. However see my explanation on the previous page on how it is very, very probable that a Stark woman married a Lord Blackwood.

[Ser Hedge]

4 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

That is possible, but we don't have much knowledge of the specifics. Perhaps Ronnel had a daughter that was married or betrothed to Hubbert Arryns son? Then Ronnels brother may get angry and feel passed over. Still we can't know for certain. Perhaps your right.

Lady Jeyne might be a bit of an exception as Andal male inheritance tradition is frequently quoted by protagonists in FaB. According to the Wiki

Jeyne's inheritance was twice contested by her cousin, Ser Arnold Arryn. Consequently, he was imprisoned in one of the sky cells,[4] while he and his descendants were disinherited from the Arryn line of succession by her last testament.[6]

However, it's interesting Ser Arnold was not able to seize power while Lady Jeyne was a child. Presumably Lord Royce had something to do with that and/or the Iron Throne had ruled in Lady Jeyne's favour. (I this is just a backstory by George to give Rhaenyra more allies in the dance, but let's stay in universe)  you could say that if  a ruling family was survived by a daughter and the next male relative is a distant cousin without the right network, there is an inertia (courtiers, noble allies, guardsmen) that keeps power in the current branch of the family. A superior lord of course has the final say (e.g. Bran asked to rule on the Cerwyn succession that had led to fighting between Boltons and Manderleys or another disputed Arryn succession during Aegon III's regency) but there has sometimes been quite a bit of subjectivity exercised in some of the decisions taken by the Iron Throne (or its regents) as well e.g. suitability rather than strength of claim.

Sorry this is so long, but the point I'm making if that any potential daughter of Ronnel who might have survived into adulthood could have been passed over citing Andal law and Aenys (and Visenya and Maegor) may have been happy to leave Hubbert in charge. On the other hand, any issue of Ronnel may not have survived either. So without any proof either way we are unable to pursue this line of Stark genes traveling down the Targ family tree.

 

[Lord Varys]

As Jeyne's first cousin Ser Arnold was likely the son of the younger son of Lord Rodrik by his first wife - whereas Lady Jeyne was the daughter of the elder son of Lord Rodrik.

This implies that Ser Arnold may have been neither a Ser nor a man back when Lady Jeyne's father died and she inherited the Vale. His attempts to oust his dear cousin would have happened some years later, after Lady Jeyne had taken the rule over the Vale in her own hands.

[Vaith]

56 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Lady Jeyne might be a bit of an exception as Andal male inheritance tradition is frequently quoted by protagonists in FaB. According to the Wiki

Jeyne's inheritance was twice contested by her cousin, Ser Arnold Arryn. Consequently, he was imprisoned in one of the sky cells,[4] while he and his descendants were disinherited from the Arryn line of succession by her last testament.[6]

However, it's interesting Ser Arnold was not able to seize power while Lady Jeyne was a child. Presumably Lord Royce had something to do with that and/or the Iron Throne had ruled in Lady Jeyne's favour. (I this is just a backstory by George to give Rhaenyra more allies in the dance, but let's stay in universe)  you could say that if  a ruling family was survived by a daughter and the next male relative is a distant cousin without the right network, there is an inertia (courtiers, noble allies, guardsmen) that keeps power in the current branch of the family. A superior lord of course has the final say (e.g. Bran asked to rule on the Cerwyn succession that had led to fighting between Boltons and Manderleys or another disputed Arryn succession during Aegon III's regency) but there has sometimes been quite a bit of subjectivity exercised in some of the decisions taken by the Iron Throne (or its regents) as well e.g. suitability rather than strength of claim.

Sorry this is so long, but the point I'm making if that any potential daughter of Ronnel who might have survived into adulthood could have been passed over citing Andal law and Aenys (and Visenya and Maegor) may have been happy to leave Hubbert in charge. On the other hand, any issue of Ronnel may not have survived either. So without any proof either way we are unable to pursue this line of Stark genes traveling down the Targ family tree.

 

“A daughter before an uncle” is typical Andal/First Man law. This means that women should probably not come before men in a specific branch, but daughters can come before more distant relatives.

A lot of situations are probably dependent on the father’s last testament too, as well as the aptitude of a regency council.

[Ser Hedge]

If George wanted to maintain the mystique of the pact of ice and fire though, he could still do that. In Fab II we might learn that Cregan's daughter's line with Lord Blackwood died out while Dunk and Egg might learn that the Kings of Winter, to keep their Bannermen close, had as far as anyone had heard of never married south of the neck until Torrhen shocked everyone by agreeing a match with an Andal house ("he ain't the King who knelt for nutin' that one I tell ya"), the only other instance being Cregan's daughter marrying back into her mother's house. In the absence of the kingsroad leading from the neck via Winterfell to the wall, Winterfell *is* actually pretty remote and even first men royalty dropping off their kin taking the black at the wall might not actually have stopped by to greet the Kings of Winter like Lord Royce did when taking Weymar (or was it on the way back), you were better off sailing to Eastwatch direct. You could come up the white knife if you were really that keen, but it's possible to make a case for the proud and gruff Starks not having maintained any contact with royalty south of the neck if the story needed it. Also, the Blackwoods would originally have had some animosity towards the Starks as they were driven out of the North (according to the wiki).

I do agree with @Lord Varys and @Vaith that such a scenario is unlikely in a real world setting where inspite of their geographic isolation, the Kings of Winter would have been sought out by old god worshipping first men kings from across the land (to seek a prestigious alliance and a possible ally even if distant) before the coming of the Andals and by at least Royce, Blackwood (who at some point must have got over their grudge) and any other old god worshipping River kings from whose unions, the genes would spread further as pointed out to Andal and first men houses converted to the faith. Or alternatively, a Stark girl could have married a Manderley (bannerman after all) and with Manderleys more active participants in the world outside the north and as adherents of the faith could easily have married into another house in another kingdom.

It's all upto George really to limit the spread of Stark genes if he so wishes, but it can be done! (the Manderley angle above might be the hardest to effectively rule out though)

[Lord Varys]

There is no internal reason to believe that a Stark-Targaryen union is something special. George certainly can play with the symbolic meaning of that but on an actual biological level he would never be able to establish the fact that, say, Rhaegar and Lyanna were not distant cousins through the Blackwood or the Arryn line.

But he never made any attempt to play up the 'metaphysical' or 'magical' meaning of the mingling of Stark and Targaryen blood so I see really no reason to assume that there is any thing *really special* about such a union - aside from the political ramifications.

Jon and Daenerys could certainly help to heal the rift that opened during the Robert's Rebellion and continued to deepen during the War of the Five Kings.

[Ser Hedge]

50 minutes ago, Vaith said:

A daughter before an uncle” is typical Andal/First Man law

A real pity Jaeherys I did not heed it. We would not have had the dance, though we would have ended up with Laenor Velaryon as king, which would have actually been technically the end of the Targaryen dynasty, the way the Tudors 'made way' for the Stuarts.

[Vaith]

Just now, Ser Hedge said:

A real pity Jaeherys I did not heed it. We would not have had the dance, though we would have ended up with Laenor Velaryon as king, which would have actually been technically the end of the Targaryen dynasty, the way the Tudors 'made way' for the Stuarts.

Well, James VI/I was a cousin of Elizabeth I. An example in Britain would be the Plantagenets succeeding the Normans after Henry II, Empress Matilda’s son with Geoffrey of Anjou, became King. Or when the House of Hanover died with Queen Victoria, her son being of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

However, I don’t think that a strict male primogeniture exists like it was enshrined in Britain’s law in the 18th century. Under this strict law, William IV’s 18-year-old niece Victoria became queen, instead of his brother Ernest Augustus, because Victoria’s late father was elder than Ernest Augustus. Would such a thing have happened in Westeros? I’m not sure. A female heir probably will come before distant relatives, but I think a male ruler may be allowed to pass her over in a will.

In this timeline, who knows what could happen. Would Laenor still marry Rhaenyra, or someone else? 

This has me convinced that everyone should have gone for the most obvious arrangement: Rhaenys and Viserys I, to unite the claims. At the very least, when it became clear that Rhaenys would be Aemon’s only child, marrying her to another lord would probably be bad for her claim (as her children would indeed lose the Targaryen name)

[Ser Hedge]

6 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Well, James VI/I was a cousin of Elizabeth I. An example in Britain would be the Plantagenets succeeding the Normans after Henry II, Empress Matilda’s son with Geoffrey of Anjou, became King. Or when the House of Hanover died with Queen Victoria, her son being of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

However, I don’t think that a strict male primogeniture exists like it was enshrined in Britain’s law in the 18th century. Under this strict law, William IV’s 18-year-old niece Victoria became queen, instead of his brother Ernest Augustus, because Victoria’s late father was elder than Ernest Augustus. Would such a thing have happened in Westeros? I’m not sure. A female heir probably will come before distant relatives, but I think a male ruler may be allowed to pass her over in a will.

In this timeline, who knows what could happen. Would Laenor still marry Rhaenyra, or someone else? 

This has me convinced that everyone should have gone for the most obvious arrangement: Rhaenys and Viserys I, to unite the claims. At the very least, when it became clear that Rhaenys would be Aemon’s only child, marrying her to another lord would probably be bad for her claim (as her children would indeed lose the Targaryen name)

You are right, the Stuart succession wasn't the correct comparison.

If Rhaenys had inherited the Iron Throne in her own right (or been declared heir apparent), then Viserys might have been a bit more motivated to marry her than when the roles were in reverse :-)

But assuming she did go ahead with marrying the sea snake, it would still have been an unstable equilibrium with Viserys' progeny bearing the Targaryen name. Assuming Daemon did not have any sons and Rhaenyra did marry Laenor and produced sons whose paternity was whispered about, then the conflict between Rhaenyra's sons and Alicent's sons by Viserys could still have happened, but the difference being the "Hightowers" would not have had the advantage of incumbency, but would be outside challengers (maybe not even based on Dragonstone) while Rhaenys was still Queen and Dragonstone occupied by either Laenor+Rhaenyra or her daughter (Most likely with Daemon). In such a set up, Alicent's brood could not have done the same damage they did when they were able to quickly gain Aegon II all the signs of legitimacy right after Viserys' death - this would have been more of a Blackfyre rebellion, but with dragons!

As you say the ideal scenario would have been for Rhaenys to marry Viserys.

[Vaith]

6 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

You are right, the Stuart succession wasn't the correct comparison.

If Rhaenys had inherited the Iron Throne in her own right (or been declared heir apparent), then Viserys might have been a bit more motivated to marry her than when the roles were in reverse :-)

But assuming she did go ahead with marrying the sea snake, it would still have been an unstable equilibrium with Viserys' progeny bearing the Targaryen name. Assuming Daemon did not have any sons and Rhaenyra did marry Laenor and produced sons whose paternity was whispered about, then the conflict between Rhaenyra's sons and Alicent's sons by Viserys could still have happened, but the difference being the "Hightowers" would not have had the advantage of incumbency, but would be outside challengers (maybe not even based on Dragonstone) while Rhaenys was still Queen and Dragonstone occupied by either Laenor+Rhaenyra or her daughter (Most likely with Daemon). In such a set up, Alicent's brood could not have done the same damage they did when they were able to quickly gain Aegon II all the signs of legitimacy right after Viserys' death - this would have been more of a Blackfyre rebellion, but with dragons!

As you say the ideal scenario would have been for Rhaenys to marry Viserys.

Rhaenys was already married to Corlys and pregnant with Laena when Aemon died. But a more adept House Targaryen would see that it’s likely that Jocelyn wouldn’t have a son after 10 years, and propose the match. Alysanne considered Rhaenys to be Aemon’s heir, after all.

Presumably, Rhaenyra/Laenor is not certain if Rhaenys is queen, since she would be a second cousin of a now unimportant branch. She can marry Laenor to a great house daughter. And things might turn out differently there — depending on the personality, another woman might not have resorted to having children with abother man. So maybe Laena’s children eventually get the throne...?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

18 hours ago, Vaith said:

At the moment, we can only be sure that the Blackwoods are mutual cousins of the Targaryens and Starks alike.

Which is one way of being related.

[Ser Hedge]

18 hours ago, Vaith said:

Rhaenys was already married to Corlys and pregnant with Laena when Aemon died. But a more adept House Targaryen would see that it’s likely that Jocelyn wouldn’t have a son after 10 years, and propose the match. Alysanne considered Rhaenys to be Aemon’s heir, after all.

Presumably, Rhaenyra/Laenor is not certain if Rhaenys is queen, since she would be a second cousin of a now unimportant branch. She can marry Laenor to a great house daughter. And things might turn out differently there — depending on the personality, another woman might not have resorted to having children with abother man. So maybe Laena’s children eventually get the throne...?

I clearly need a re-read :-)

Rhaenys seems to have had the measure of her cousin and pre-empted marriage to him by declaring her intent to King Jahaerys, who did not think the succession through I guess - or decided to do what was best by Rhaenys.

 

In the alternative story line we hypothesized, if it were set in the real world, I agree that second cousin Rhaenyra would not have been a valuable match for the Crown Prince. But given they were still riding dragons then and in light of their marriage practices, it actually would have made sense I think. Also, since Laenor would have been the first Velaryon monarch on the Iron Throne (still a fairly recent institution), increasing the 'Targ count' in his successors and keeping as many dragon riders as close as possible would be important. 

Interestingly it just struck me that there is a dearth of actual royalty on either side of the Narrow Sea after conquest. This would explain fewer (well none really, Viserys II is a special case) Targaryen marriages into Valyrian-descended Essosi houses (most free cities have elected officials of some kind even if they come from a small set of possible families), so benefits from an alliance could be temporary. Quite clever of George - anticipating us nerds asking why royalty didn't marry royalty like in actual history (at least for those cases where outside marriages needed to be considered when dragon blood wasn't available)

[Vaith]

17 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

I clearly need a re-read :-)

Rhaenys seems to have had the measure of her cousin and pre-empted marriage to him by declaring her intent to King Jahaerys, who did not think the succession through I guess - or decided to do what was best by Rhaenys.

 

In the alternative story line we hypothesized, if it were set in the real world, I agree that second cousin Rhaenyra would not have been a valuable match for the Crown Prince. But given they were still riding dragons then and in light of their marriage practices, it actually would have made sense I think. Also, since Laenor would have been the first Velaryon monarch on the Iron Throne (still a fairly recent institution), increasing the 'Targ count' in his successors and keeping as many dragon riders as close as possible would be important. 

Interestingly it just struck me that there is a dearth of actual royalty on either side of the Narrow Sea after conquest. This would explain fewer (well none really, Viserys II is a special case) Targaryen marriages into Valyrian-descended Essosi houses (most free cities have elected officials of some kind even if they come from a small set of possible families), so benefits from an alliance could be temporary. Quite clever of George - anticipating us nerds asking why royalty didn't marry royalty like in actual history (at least for those cases where outside marriages needed to be considered when dragon blood wasn't available)

Jaehaerys was also estranged from Alysanne at the time, during the First Quarrel. Since Alysanne was the one keener to acknowledge a potential female heir, it's possible she might have protested and offered a match that was more in line with dynastic stability. Alas, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Marrying Rhaenyra for her dragons would also make sense. I just suppose that the Iron Throne being a new institution would also make it not particularly shocking if they lost the throne only a century or so into their rule.

Yes, the lack of foreign royalty is very telling. GRRM probably wanted to limit the scope of politics to Westeros, as including various kingdoms beyond the Iron Throne would likely complicate things further in an already complex story. Seeing as how power in the Free Cities is limited to republican/oligarchic systems with temporary leaders, a marriage would not provide the same benefit.

I suppose there is the Summer Isles, actually. But their lack of the Faith, distance from most of Westeros, and the fact that they are divided into various principalities does not make them an attractive region. Still, maybe there was once a Summer Islander/Martell marriage...?

[Bael's Bastard]

On 2/2/2019 at 5:20 PM, Ser Hedge said:

FaB contains this little nugget that Visenya and Rhaenys arranged the marriage of one of Torrhen Stark's daughters to Ronnel Arryn. So if Lord Rodrik Arryn is a descendant of theirs (likely a great-grandson) - and not from a parallel line/cadet branch because the main Arryn line died out- that gives Aemma Arryn, Rhaenyra and hence Aegon III's and Viserys II's descendants some Stark ancestry. So theoretically Dany has (a tiny portion of) Stark 'blood'. Applying modern generic theory, you could probably argue that the influence could be so faint that is immaterial, but I guess all the arguments about Ice & Fire being all about Stark and Targaryen blood 'mixing' (and that's why R sought out L) sound a little bit less convincing, as Rhaenyra would be the first Westerosi to have both bloodlines (and a fat lot of good it did her, eh?) I wonder if there is a reason GRRM threw this titbit in. (If it was already in TWOIAF I missed it sorry) Maybe we are meant to focus less on bloodlines and consider Ice and Fire symbolically?

It doesn't sound like Lord Ronnel Arryn and his Stark wife had any children.

 

That said, House Blackwood could have Stark ancestry from before they were driven from the North by the Kings of Winter, in which case, Bloodraven and Aegon IV's other Blackwood (and possibly Bracken) bastards could have both Targaryen, and some amount of Stark, ancestry.

And there is a much more recent possible source for Stark ancestry to have made it into the Targaryens.

Lord Cregan Stark wed Alysanne Blackwood, aunt of Lord Benjicot Blackwood, in 132 AC, and they had four daughters. It is not inconceivable that one of these daughters was wed back into the Blackwoods.

Interestingly, the Blood of Dragons MUSH indeed has a daughter of Cregan and Aly marrying the son and heir of Lord Benjicot Blackwood, and brother of Aegon IV's mistress Melissa Blackwood, though it is entirely possible nothing resembling this will make it into "canon."

IF one of the four daughters of Cregan and Aly did wed back into the Blackwoods, it is not inconceivable that either or both Melantha Blackwood (bride of Lord Willam Stark and grandmother of Lord Rickard) and Betha Blackwood (bride of eventual King Aegon V, and mother of Jaehaerys II, Shaera, and Rhaelle) could be descended from the union between Cregan Stark and Aly Blackwood.

In which case, Duncan, Jaehaerys (II), Shaera, Daeron, and Rhaelle, and all of their descendants, would all have Stark ancestry through that daughter of Cregan and Aly:

- King Aerys II and Rhaella
    - Rhaegar
        - Rhaenys
        - Aegon
        - Jon
    - Viserys
    - Daenerys
- Lord Steffon Baratheon
    - Lord/King Robert
        - Mya Stone
        - Gendry
        - Edric Storm
        - the rest of Robert's bastards
    - Lord Stannis
        - Shireen
    - Lord Renly

That is, of course, speculative, but it is a possibility, and not entirely implausible.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 2/2/2019 at 6:17 PM, Vaith said:

However, there may be another link. While I can't completely recall, I think that on Blood of Dragons Ran and Linda once said there was a daughter of Cregan Stark who married a Blackwood. Dany's great-grandmother was Betha Blackwood, so that's a distant link too. Even if not, you can imagine that there might have been a Stark-Blackwood marriage (or a Blackwood marriage to someone with Stark ancestry) over the years. Most of the Westerosi families are very old, dating from the Andal invasion or the First Men, so I think she's going to be descended from a lot of obscure houses to some distant degree.

Yes, the Blood of the Dragon MUSH has a daughter of Cregan and Aly (Marian) marrying the son and heir of Lord Benjicot Blackwood (Seth), who seems to be listed as the brother of Aegon IV's mistress Melissa Blackwood.

Of course, the information in the MUSH doesn't exactly match the information that has been revealed since, as TWOIAF shows Cregan and Aly having four daughters (Sarra, Alys, Raya, Mariah), none of whom are named Marian.

But it still seems plausible that one of the daughters of Cregan and Aly could turn out to have been wed back into the Blackwoods, and if so, it wouldn't be surprising if one or both Betha (Aegon V's wife) and Melantha (Willam Stark's wife) ended up being descended from a daughter of Cregan and Aly.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 2/3/2019 at 4:55 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ronnel_Arryn_(king)

This link says that he had 'issue'.

There is no source for Ronnel and his Stark bride having issue. See Ran's comments in the links provided in my previous post.