What is the Illyrio Barristan connection?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

That we can't be sure of, but there is no indication.  To my knowledge no one except for Tyrion knows of the Varys/Illyrio connection.  Unless someone can come up with a quote.  

Funnily enough, Arya knows without knowing. Jon Connington knows as well along with Septa Lemore.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Funnily enough, Arya knows without knowing. Jon Connington knows as well along with Septa Lemore.

Yes.  Arya "knows without knowing".  

I was really talking about anyone outside the Shy Maid crew.

[Seams]

16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its totally possible that Barri is the Spiders creature, like Tyrion Jorah or Griff. Theyll all deny it and think back on why they didn't kill Varys, or look forward to killing him, but it is what it is. 

Though it could totally (and what i think) be that while Barri was going in between KL gates he was being spied upon and been given subtle hints about Targayens and Illyrio

(Thats Petyr not Varys, but the games the game)

Although even if Barri decided for himself to sail east, id be willing to bet the sailors were the Spiders creatures

I think your point is the right way to approach Ser Barristan's role: Illyrio is a player in the game, Ser Barristan is a game piece who gets moved around by the players. For me, the major clue about Illyrio is his rings - many different gems. Tyrion, whose is known to love cyvasse, covets those rings and idly (?) thinks about cutting off Illyrio's fingers to get at them. (Illyrio has cut off the hands of his lost wife, so the extra hands may represent his super ability to play the game - he has four hands instead of two.) Dany is given an army of soldiers made of gemstones, each the size of a finger. Prince Doran is from a cyvasse-playing culture and he actually imprisons his daughter with a cyvasse game to encourage her to start playing. 

There are other "players" whose exercises in power are not so obvious, I admit. (But this thread does not focus on them, so we can sort them out another time!)

The role of Varys is a little less clear to me. One possibility is that some of the major game players have agents who move pieces around on behalf of the kingmakers. I suppose this could be part of the motif around the "Hand of the King" metaphor: the Hand is acting on behalf of the King in running the kingdom. Similarly, the dead hand of the wight is still alive for some time after Ser Alliser Thorne carries it to King's Landing. So Varys has some ability to make decisions, as long as his actions serve the larger strategy dictated from above. I suspect that Brown Ben Plumm is in a similar role. Pycelle and Kevan may have played an "agent" role for Tywin but they are pretty easily killed soon after Tywin dies (although I'm not sure of any of this yet). 

Another hint to the reader about knights who can be controlled came through Sandor Clegane's story of the toy wooden knight given to Gregor. Sandor thought the knight puppet was marvelous because you could make him fight. Gregor, of course, punished Sandor for playing with his toy, holding his face in the fire. As a result, Sandor swore off knights for life and he refuses to become one. (He makes this explicit, in fact, just after Ser Barristan has been kicked out of the King's Guard.) Gregor, on the other hand, is seen as Tywin's remote-control monster knight. I fear that Ser Barristan may also be a remote-control fighting machine but I'm not entirely sure who controls him.

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

What @Lost Melniboneansaid makes sense. We also need to note that it was Varys who suggested  Cersei to remove Barristan from the King's Guard, which means that Varys had a plan for him (besides weakening the Lannisters as Tywin noticed). On the other hand Barristan knows Varys for a long time. My head canon on this issue is that Varys found Barristan in KL and the later "forced" Varys to tell him where Viserys was, in a situation not unlike Jaime "forcing" Varys to liberate Tyrion at the end of ASOS. Barristan took a ship and contacted Illyrio.

 

Remember that Barristan must have arrived not long before (or after) the news of Dany's dragons reached Illyrio (via Jorah). Illyrio decided that they needed Dany now and someone as reliable as Barristan would be able to convince her to come back to Pentos, again under Illyrio watching eyes. Of course Barristan had his own motives and agenda, including hiding his name so things didn't go as planed.

On the other hand, maybe Barristan would have smelled the truth about Aegon's origins. He knows a thing or two about the Blackfyres.

This also sounds right to me. Illyrio was planning to use Viserys and Dany as pawns. His strategy is upended a bit when he finds out that Dany may be a player in her own right, not a pawn. When a cyvasse player brings out dragons or elephants or trebuchets, the other player has to choose how to respond. Sending in Ser Barristan may have been a way of countering whatever move Dany was going to make. 

20 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

"It had been Missandei who suggested the ploy to him. He would never have thought of such a thing himself. In King's Landing, bribes had been Littlefinger's domain, whilst Lord Varys had the task of fostering division amongst the crown's enemies. His own duties had been more straightforward. Eleven years of age, yet Missandei is as clever as half the men at this table and wiser than all of them."--A Dance with Dragons - The Queen's Hand

Characters like Ygritte, Penny and Missandei may be something outside of a cyvasse game. Ygritte's famous, "You know nothing, Jon Snow," is a clear indication that she is teaching Jon about the world. Penny knows games that Tyrion doesn't know and she doesn't play cyvasse by the rules when he tries to teach her his way of playing. Here we see Missandei helping to educate Ser Barristan about a game he has not played before. 

Maybe these characters (Ygritte, Penny and Missandei) offer some hope that pawns can become players or, at least, break free from being pawns. When they learn to play the game, they are less likely to be manipulated. 

Quite apart from the Illyrio connection, Ser Barristan is still one of my favorite mysteries of the series. I suspect that the Defiance of Duskendale is an important story for understanding his role. At the beginning of the Defiance, a member of the King's Guard, Ser Gwayne Gaunt, is killed by Ser Symon Hollard, the master-at-arms for the Darklyns. We don't see House Gaunt or other individuals from that House in the series, which has been a reliable clue to me that GRRM has hidden a clue in the character's name. Anagrams can be misleading, but my best guess about Gwayne Gaunt is:

Ser Gwayne Gaunt = A new garnets guy - or - a new strange guy

The possible reference to a "strange guy" fits with other clues that identify Ser Barristan as a "stranger." When Ser Gwayne dies, there is an opening for a new strange guy and this may have been when Ser Barristan assumed that identity. (Gaunt's death also allows Ser Barristan to become the commander of the King's Guard, iirc.) 

Garnets and argent also have symbolic meaning in the series, so I throw those in as possibilities, for what they are worth. I believe them to be associated with people named Aegon. (See the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read thread for in-depth analysis.) 

Hollard kills Gaunt; Selmy kills Hollard; Selmy asks the king to spare the life of the child, Dontos Hollard, who goes on to play a role in the Joffrey regicide. I am a fan of the theory that Mollander, the Citadel novice in the AFfC prologue, may be the son of Ser Dontos. If so, I suspect he will turn up in Ser Barristan's story at some point, perhaps playing a role in his death. 

My other sneaking suspicion about Ser Barristan comes through his nickname and his connection to details of the other King's Guard superheroes, Ser Duncan the Tall / Brienne. 

Barristan the Bold = bastard in brothel, bastard bone hilt (+ r)

I think Ser Barristan may be a dragon seed although he could be someone else's bastard. If he has a bone hilt, then I suspect the "player" wielding him is a Targaryen. [I realize Littlefinger is younger than Ser Barristan, but he may have inherited a family "blade". Littlefinger acknowledges that the dragon bone dagger used by the catspaw originally belonged to him (to Littlefinger). But whether Ser Barristan is 1) a dragon seed and 2) controlled by Littlefinger may be subjects for another thread.]

Just one more point from the subtext: If Ser Barristan is a bastard from a highborn family, as I suspect, I believe we are supposed to think of him as a "white" bastard - white cloak, white beard, etc. In the White Book of the King's Guard, Jaime reads that Ser Barristan defeated (among many others) Blackshield, the mystery knight who was revealed as the Bastard of Uplands. I think Blackshield is a symbolic version of Jon Snow, who carries the black shield of the Night's Watch and who is also a bastard. There may be conflict ahead for Jon Snow and Ser Barristan. (Alternatively, but perhaps too complicated for this thread, the conflict might be between Sam Tarly and Ser Barristan.) 

fwiw. 

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Yes.  Arya "knows without knowing".  

I was really talking about anyone outside the Shy Maid crew.

"No One" outside the Shy Maid...

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I think your point is the right way to approach Ser Barristan's role: Illyrio is a player in the game, Ser Barristan is a game piece who gets moved around by the players. For me, the major clue about Illyrio is his rings - many different gems. Tyrion, whose is known to love cyvasse, covets those rings and idly (?) thinks about cutting off Illyrio's fingers to get at them. (Illyrio has cut off the hands of his lost wife, so the extra hands may represent his super ability to play the game - he has four hands instead of two.) Dany is given an army of soldiers made of gemstones, each the size of a finger. Prince Doran is from a cyvasse-playing culture and he actually imprisons his daughter with a cyvasse game to encourage her to start playing. 

There are other "players" whose exercises in power are not so obvious, I admit. (But this thread does not focus on them, so we can sort them out another time!)

The role of Varys is a little less clear to me. One possibility is that some of the major game players have agents who move pieces around on behalf of the kingmakers. I suppose this could be part of the motif around the "Hand of the King" metaphor: the Hand is acting on behalf of the King in running the kingdom. Similarly, the dead hand of the wight is still alive for some time after Ser Alliser Thorne carries it to King's Landing. So Varys has some ability to make decisions, as long as his actions serve the larger strategy dictated from above. I suspect that Brown Ben Plumm is in a similar role. Pycelle and Kevan may have played an "agent" role for Tywin but they are pretty easily killed soon after Tywin dies (although I'm not sure of any of this yet). 

Another hint to the reader about knights who can be controlled came through Sandor Clegane's story of the toy wooden knight given to Gregor. Sandor thought the knight puppet was marvelous because you could make him fight. Gregor, of course, punished Sandor for playing with his toy, holding his face in the fire. As a result, Sandor swore off knights for life and he refuses to become one. (He makes this explicit, in fact, just after Ser Barristan has been kicked out of the King's Guard.) Gregor, on the other hand, is seen as Tywin's remote-control monster knight. I fear that Ser Barristan may also be a remote-control fighting machine but I'm not entirely sure who controls him.

This also sounds right to me. Illyrio was planning to use Viserys and Dany as pawns. His strategy is upended a bit when he finds out that Dany may be a player in her own right, not a pawn. When a cyvasse player brings out dragons or elephants or trebuchets, the other player has to choose how to respond. Sending in Ser Barristan may have been a way of countering whatever move Dany was going to make. 

Characters like Ygritte, Penny and Missandei may be something outside of a cyvasse game. Ygritte's famous, "You know nothing, Jon Snow," is a clear indication that she is teaching Jon about the world. Penny knows games that Tyrion doesn't know and she doesn't play cyvasse by the rules when he tries to teach her his way of playing. Here we see Missandei helping to educate Ser Barristan about a game he has not played before. 

Maybe these characters (Ygritte, Penny and Missandei) offer some hope that pawns can become players or, at least, break free from being pawns. When they learn to play the game, they are less likely to be manipulated. 

Quite apart from the Illyrio connection, Ser Barristan is still one of my favorite mysteries of the series. I suspect that the Defiance of Duskendale is an important story for understanding his role. At the beginning of the Defiance, a member of the King's Guard, Ser Gwayne Gaunt, is killed by Ser Symon Hollard, the master-at-arms for the Darklyns. We don't see House Gaunt or other individuals from that House in the series, which has been a reliable clue to me that GRRM has hidden a clue in the character's name. Anagrams can be misleading, but my best guess about Gwayne Gaunt is:

Ser Gwayne Gaunt = A new garnets guy - or - a new strange guy

The possible reference to a "strange guy" fits with other clues that identify Ser Barristan as a "stranger." When Ser Gwayne dies, there is an opening for a new strange guy and this may have been when Ser Barristan assumed that identity. (Gaunt's death also allows Ser Barristan to become the commander of the King's Guard, iirc.) 

Garnets and argent also have symbolic meaning in the series, so I throw those in as possibilities, for what they are worth. I believe them to be associated with people named Aegon. (See the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read thread for in-depth analysis.) 

Hollard kills Gaunt; Selmy kills Hollard; Selmy asks the king to spare the life of the child, Dontos Hollard, who goes on to play a role in the Joffrey regicide. I am a fan of the theory that Mollander, the Citadel novice in the AFfC prologue, may be the son of Ser Dontos. If so, I suspect he will turn up in Ser Barristan's story at some point, perhaps playing a role in his death. 

My other sneaking suspicion about Ser Barristan comes through his nickname and his connection to details of the other King's Guard superheroes, Ser Duncan the Tall / Brienne. 

Barristan the Bold = bastard in brothel, bastard bone hilt (+ r)

I think Ser Barristan may be a dragon seed although he could be someone else's bastard. If he has a bone hilt, then I suspect the "player" wielding him is a Targaryen. [I realize Littlefinger is younger than Ser Barristan, but he may have inherited a family "blade". Littlefinger acknowledges that the dragon bone dagger used by the catspaw originally belonged to him (to Littlefinger). But whether Ser Barristan is 1) a dragon seed and 2) controlled by Littlefinger may be subjects for another thread.]

Just one more point from the subtext: If Ser Barristan is a bastard from a highborn family, as I suspect, I believe we are supposed to think of him as a "white" bastard - white cloak, white beard, etc. In the White Book of the King's Guard, Jaime reads that Ser Barristan defeated (among many others) Blackshield, the mystery knight who was revealed as the Bastard of Uplands. I think Blackshield is a symbolic version of Jon Snow, who carries the black shield of the Night's Watch and who is also a bastard. There may be conflict ahead for Jon Snow and Ser Barristan. (Alternatively, but perhaps too complicated for this thread, the conflict might be between Sam Tarly and Ser Barristan.) 

fwiw. 

 

 

Firmly believing that Illyrio is Daemon Blackfyre's heir, and that our young Aegon is actually Illyrio's son, I like your conceptualization of Varys as Illyrio's Hand. 

[Wolf of the Steppes]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

"No One" outside the Shy Maid...

Jeez, you guys can pick apart a person like it was aFFC. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm thinking that the only way that Illyrio's name would come up in a Small Council discussion on Dany is if Varys informed them that Illyrio had brokered the marriage to KD or was otherwise supporting her.

I'm a bit surprised that it hasn't come up, actually. They've been tracking Dany and Viserys for years and knew that they were in Pentos. Surely they knew who in Pentos took them in? Or was Varys Robert's only source of information?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Robert was aware that Viserys had been sheltered by Illyrio, and that Illyrio arranged the Daenerys-Drogo marriage. Presumably this was discussed in council. 

True, the "pox-ridden Pentoshi cheesemonger" has both Targs and is handing them over to the Dothraki. And it's interesting that Tyrion uses the same term, minus the pox-ridden, to refer to Illyrio, and I believe that he even mentions to Jorah about hearing his reports in council. Which leads to the question, what was Tyrion doing at Robert's small council meetings?

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm a bit surprised that it hasn't come up, actually. They've been tracking Dany and Viserys for years and knew that they were in Pentos. Surely they knew who in Pentos took them in? Or was Varys Robert's only source of information?

Robert does mention that a "pox-ridden cheesemonger" has Dany. Varys would be the most likely source, but, sure, not necessarily the only one.

[Lord Varys]

Selmy is far too stupid to realize he is talking to Varys when Varys is disguised.

Or not. In any case, chances are very high that Varys' people had him reach the conclusion to go to Illyrio. After all, originally he did not have that plan. He hid somewhere in KL and had no plan at all. And going to the cheesemonger who apparently had set up Viserys III to rely on him to get to the Mad King's daughter is a pretty strange plan.

Selmy wouldn't have come up with that all by himself. And since the news of the dragons were not yet there when he left chances are pretty high that someone or something triggered his decision to actually rediscover his Targaryen allegiance. Searching out a mere girl would have actually have been nearly utter madness from his point of view. What chances could she stand against the various Baratheon pretenders?

And wouldn't it have been so much easier - and much more gratifying - to search out Stannis or Renly?

The continuation of this story will be told. We only got the first half in ADwD. The next step should be how Selmy decided to search for Dany, and how he decided to do that via Illyrio Mopatis. And, of course, what Selmy actually thinks of that man. He would have spent at least some time with him.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

True, the "pox-ridden Pentoshi cheesemonger" has both Targs and is handing them over to the Dothraki. And it's interesting that Tyrion uses the same term, minus the pox-ridden, to refer to Illyrio, and I believe that he even mentions to Jorah about hearing his reports in council. Which leads to the question, what was Tyrion doing at Robert's small council meetings?

Tyrion attended small council meetings when he was hand during Clash. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Selmy is far too stupid to realize he is talking to Varys when Varys is disguised.

Or not. In any case, chances are very high that Varys' people had him reach the conclusion to go to Illyrio. After all, originally he did not have that plan. He hid somewhere in KL and had no plan at all. And going to the cheesemonger who apparently had set up Viserys III to rely on him to get to the Mad King's daughter is a pretty strange plan.

Selmy wouldn't have come up with that all by himself. And since the news of the dragons were not yet there when he left chances are pretty high that someone or something triggered his decision to actually rediscover his Targaryen allegiance. Searching out a mere girl would have actually have been nearly utter madness from his point of view. What chances could she stand against the various Baratheon pretenders?

And wouldn't it have been so much easier - and much more gratifying - to search out Stannis or Renly?

The continuation of this story will be told. We only got the first half in ADwD. The next step should be how Selmy decided to search for Dany, and how he decided to do that via Illyrio Mopatis. And, of course, what Selmy actually thinks of that man. He would have spent at least some time with him.

Hasn't Barristan always tried to get Daenerys to avail herself of Illyrio's aid? 

[bent branch]

On 2/4/2019 at 3:06 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

No, I don't think it was Varys. Barrisran detests Varys. I agree Varys set him up, and set the conditions, but I think Barristan acted on his own. As a member of the small council, Barristan was well aware that Illyrio had sent Viserys and Daenerys off into the Dothraki Sea with Khal Drogo. Since Barristan was seeking Rhaegar's heir, his first stop would be Pentos, with or without additional aid from Varys. 

As Daenerys’s growing host stands outside Meereen in Daenerys V, Storm 57, we get the big reveal that Arstan is Barristan, and that he served as Belwas’s squire at Illyrio’s behest. And Barristan reveals to Daenerys Jorah’s role as an informer to Varys, trading information on the Targlings for gold and a promise to return from exile. We learn that, although Robert never attempted to have the Targlings assassinated upon Jon Arryn’s counsel, he relied on Varys to report on Viserys’s every move.

Notice here Barristan apparently disdains Varys, but appreciates the assistance he received from Illyrio on behalf of Daenerys. There is no reveal, however, of the link Illyrio provides between Jorah and Varys. The author purposely shields Illyrio’s link between Jorah and Varys from Barristan and Daenerys. 

Agree with all except the bolded. Barry acting as Belwas' squire was at Barry's request as he wanted to take a good look at Dany before commiting to her.

In general, I would say it is a mistake to think that Barry is acting as anyone's agent. He is just not in that place at this point in his life.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robert does mention that a "pox-ridden cheesemonger" has Dany. Varys would be the most likely source, but, sure, not necessarily the only one.

Nice catch @John Suburbs!....The full quote is:

Quote

Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert's thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. "You can't get your hands on this one, can you?" he said quietly.

The king's mouth twisted in a bitter grimace. "No, gods be cursed. Some pox-ridden Pentoshi cheesemonger had her brother and her walled up on his estate with pointy-hatted eunuchs all around them, and now he's handed them over to the Dothraki. I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you. More fool I, I listened to him."--A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

So there is a direction more than Pentos...."Some pox-ridden Pentoshi cheesemonger..."  

Still not Illyrio or Mopatis or Magister for that matter.  Maybe he figured it out, or maybe it was known, or maybe he was told.  I'm obviously playing devil's advocate here because I can't discount points like:

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Selmy is far too stupid to realize he is talking to Varys when Varys is disguised.

He's not stupid, but at the same time has blind spots and is not suited for the game like The Ned 

Quote

Lord Eddard was a brave man, honest and loyal . . . but quite a hopeless player." He brought the seed to his mouth with the knife. "In King's Landing, there are two sorts of people. The players and the pieces."

I like this as @Seams pointed out (although with at bit of off subject matter-which i appreciated!)

The whole point of this was a good discussion and not an off the wall theory that we can all shoot down and make people feel stupid.  Thanks to all and please continue!

In closing for now....This. Thank you m'lord!

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The continuation of this story will be told. We only got the first half in ADwD. The next step should be how Selmy decided to search for Dany, and how he decided to do that via Illyrio Mopatis. And, of course, what Selmy actually thinks of that man. He would have spent at least some time with him.

Yes he would have spent at least some time with him, but do we really need to guess what he thought of him?

Maybe he did hear of Dany/*Illyrio through Varys in some form and it really was just a means to an end because he had no other options that made sense/were honorable to him.  But there is some mystery there, and it is why I find it interesting.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hasn't Barristan always tried to get Daenerys to avail herself of Illyrio's aid? 

Yeah, but that's after Illyrio put him on a ship to get to Daenerys. How did he reach the conclusion to see a girl that might already be dead as his true queen? How did he even remember that she was still out there?

How long did he linger in KL? Joffrey tells Sansa early on in ACoK that the Beggar King is dead. Perhaps that news reaching Selmy may caused him to rediscover the Targaryen thing. But Viserys' end apparently was no big story in KL. Only Joff mentions it, and he likely only cared about it because his late dad had cared. Cersei, Tyrion, any of the other council guys don't give a damn. And the Kingslanders should have had more important concerns, too.

Thus the idea that Varys himself or his people told Selmy about the Beggar King's end and that Daenerys Stormborn, possibly even pointing out a way to get to her. Perhaps some Pentoshi sailor was the guy who accidentally started to talk to Selmy in some inn or wine sink or pot show, pretending to spread news and stories he heard on his last trip, telling stories how he saw the Targaryens once from afar, possibly at Dany's wedding, how beautiful and brave the young princess had been, etc.

Selmy all by himself should have had trouble to reach a ship while Cersei's guys were looking for Arya. It is one thing to hide among the rabble in plain sight, and quite another to figure out a way to get to a very specific place unseen.

But it is quite clear that Selmy thinks Illyrio can be trusted since he trusted him to get to her.

7 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

He's not stupid, but at the same time has blind spots and is not suited for the game like The Ned.

I didn't say he was stupid, I just said I think he is too stupid to recognize Varys if Varys don't want to be recognized.

We can be very sure Varys knew Selmy returned to KL because Selmy explicitly came back by way of the Gate of the Gods and we do know that Varys has eyes there checking who comes into the city - that's how he found out that Tyrion came into the city and brought Shae with him.

Varys knew Selmy was there and he would have helped him to get to Illyrio - either by only ensuring that he got there, or by actively persuading him to get there personally or through agents as I laid out above.

7 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Yes he would have spent at least some time with him, but do we really need to guess what he thought of him?

Maybe he did hear of Dany/*Illyrio through Varys in some form and it really was just a means to an end because he had no other options that made sense/were honorable to him.  But there is some mystery there, and it is why I find it interesting.

Sure, that is very interesting, and there is a lot of mystery and obvious potential for later stories there. With Aegon in the mix, Dany will have to make very important choices how to see and deal and treat with Illyrio in the books to come, and there will be different voices on the matter. Selmy, being a straightforward and honest guy will tell her she owes him, for the dragons and for himself, just as he, Selmy, owes Illyrio for getting Selmy to Dany. Others, like Tyrion and Jorah, will likely espouse a much more cynical view, especially when it becomes clear that Illyrio and Varys were working together the entire time - which, at this point, only Tyrion knows.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, but that's after Illyrio put him on a ship to get to Daenerys. How did he reach the conclusion to see a girl that might already be dead as his true queen? How did he even remember that she was still out there?

How long did he linger in KL? Joffrey tells Sansa early on in ACoK that the Beggar King is dead. Perhaps that news reaching Selmy may caused him to rediscover the Targaryen thing. But Viserys' end apparently was no big story in KL. Only Joff mentions it, and he likely only cared about it because his late dad had cared. Cersei, Tyrion, any of the other council guys don't give a damn. And the Kingslanders should have had more important concerns, too.

Thus the idea that Varys himself or his people told Selmy about the Beggar King's end and that Daenerys Stormborn, possibly even pointing out a way to get to her. Perhaps some Pentoshi sailor was the guy who accidentally started to talk to Selmy in some inn or wine sink or pot show, pretending to spread news and stories he heard on his last trip, telling stories how he saw the Targaryens once from afar, possibly at Dany's wedding, how beautiful and brave the young princess had been, etc.

Selmy all by himself should have had trouble to reach a ship while Cersei's guys were looking for Arya. It is one thing to hide among the rabble in plain sight, and quite another to figure out a way to get to a very specific place unseen.

But it is quite clear that Selmy thinks Illyrio can be trusted since he trusted him to get to her.

I didn't say he was stupid, I just said I think he is too stupid to recognize Varys if Varys don't want to be recognized.

We can be very sure Varys knew Selmy returned to KL because Selmy explicitly came back by way of the Gate of the Gods and we do know that Varys has eyes there checking who comes into the city - that's how he found out that Tyrion came into the city and brought Shae with him.

Varys knew Selmy was there and he would have helped him to get to Illyrio - either by only ensuring that he got there, or by actively persuading him to get there personally or through agents as I laid out above.

Sure, that is very interesting, and there is a lot of mystery and obvious potential for later stories there. With Aegon in the mix, Dany will have to make very important choices how to see and deal and treat with Illyrio in the books to come, and there will be different voices on the matter. Selmy, being a straightforward and honest guy will tell her she owes him, for the dragons and for himself, just as he, Selmy, owes Illyrio for getting Selmy to Dany. Others, like Tyrion and Jorah, will likely espouse a much more cynical view, especially when it becomes clear that Illyrio and Varys were working together the entire time - which, at this point, only Tyrion knows.

Although Viserys was already dead, nobody in King's Landing knew it when Barristan was dismissed. Presumably, Jorah sent a message to Illyrio when the caravan came to Vaes Dothrak. We know that Belwas was with Illyrio when Illyrio received the message, right? Was Barristan there as well? I think, Barristan set out to find Viserys (he says as much, doesn't he?), and he started looking where the pox-ridden cheesemonger had sheltered the Targlings. Illyrio expected the Targlings to be heading east, until he finally got Jorah's next and last dispatch, which was sent from Qarth with word of Drogo's death and the dragons' birth. And that's when Illyrio sent Barristan on his way. 

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Selmy, being a straightforward and honest guy will tell her she owes him, for the dragons and for himself, just as he, Selmy, owes Illyrio for getting Selmy to Dany. 

Idk about that

Quote

"Pentos," said Ser Barristan. "He promised him Pentos. Say it. No words of yours can help or harm Prince Quentyn now."

"Aye," said Ser Archibald unhappily. "It was Pentos. They made marks on a paper, the two of them."

There is a chance here. "We still have Windblown in the dungeons. Those feigned deserters."

"I remember," said Yronwood. "Hungerford, Straw, that lot. Some of them weren't so bad for sellswords. Others, well, might be they could stand a bit of dying. What of them?"

"I mean to send them back to the Tattered Prince. And you with them. You will be two amongst thousands. Your presence in the Yunkish camps should pass unnoticed. I want you to deliver a message to the Tattered Prince. Tell him that I sent you, that I speak with the queen's voice. Tell him that we'll pay his price if he delivers us our hostages, unharmed and whole."

 

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 We know that Belwas was with Illyrio when Illyrio received the message, right? 

I dont think so

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Was Barristan there as well?

Idk

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think, Barristan set out to find Viserys (he says as much, doesn't he?), and he started looking where the pox-ridden cheesemonger had sheltered the Targlings.

Yea. Probably 

Quote

But when he took the cloak that the White Bull had draped about my shoulders, and sent men to kill me that selfsame day, it was as though he'd ripped a caul off my eyes. That was when I knew I must find my true king, and die in his service - "

 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tyrion attended small council meetings when he was hand during Clash. 

I'll have to look up the quote. I'm pretty sure he mentions hearing about Jorah's info on King Robert's council. But maybe I misread.

[bent branch]

53 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think so

From ASOS, Daenerys I:

Quote

 

The exile knight did not return her smile. "These are Illyrio's ships, Illyrio's captains, Illyrio's sailors . . . and Strong Belwas and Arstan are his men as well, not yours."

"Magister Illyrio has protected me in the past. Strong Belwas says that he wept when he heard my brother was dead."

"Yes," said Mormont, "but did he weep for Viserys, or for the plans he had made with him?"

 

Before being sent to Daenerys, Strong Belwas was Illyrio's personal body guard (like Areo Hotah). Even Mormont does not doubt Belwas' reporting of the events, he just questions what they mean. I think, therefore, the reader can take it a true that Belwas was with Illyrio when he got the news and that he cried upon hearing it.