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Wolf of the Steppes

What is the Illyrio Barristan connection?

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Well, perhaps it is turning out that Dany is going to throw the first stone at Illyrio and Aegon with the entire Pentos thing. That's certainly possible, although it would be utter stupidity on her part to just caper to the needs of the Tatters guy with him having nothing important to tell her about Illyrio and Varys.

As for Varys' influence on Barristan:

Even if he had not reached out to him in disguise or via agents after he returned to the city, it is still Varys who made him rediscover his true allegiances, etc. by manipulating. He suggested to blame Selmy for Robert's death, and he publicly put forth the lie that Lord Tywin of all people (!!!) had agreed to grant Selmy some land and a keep to die in.

Varys knows how to play Selmy.

However, I still doubt that Selmy got to Pentos and Illyrio without Varys' knowledge and help behind the scenes.

Varys has many eyes in KL but his are not the only eyes. It had to be arranged that the man doesn't make the wrong people suspicious.

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12 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Ok, so Aria with some help from Yoren are more cunning than Barristan?  If that is your argument, we are at an impass.  That seems ridiculous to me.

"Quick and easy in and out"--Infiltrating a castle under imminent seige? 

Listen to that.  I don't want to be mean, but that is silly.

Arya has been hanging out with smallfolk all her life. Barri hasnt.

 

Duskendale wasnt infiltrated: Barri snuck in and escaped with the King - so we are talking of different skills entirely.

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1 hour ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Seriously..........you're incorrigable.

in·fil·trate

Dictionary result for infiltrate

/inˈfilˌtrāt,ˈinfəlˌtrāt/
verb
verb: infiltrate; 3rd person present: infiltrates; past tense: infiltrated; past participle: infiltrated; gerund or present participle: infiltrating
  1. 1.
    enter or gain access to (an organization, place, etc.) surreptitiously and gradually, especially in order to acquire secret information.
    "other areas of the establishment were infiltrated by fascists"
    synonyms: penetrate, invade, intrude on, insinuate oneself into, worm one's way into, sneak into, slip into, creep into, impinge on, trespass on, butt into; 
    informalgatecrash, muscle in on
    "he sought to infiltrate the smuggling operation"

Lol no you are wrong. ”Gradually in order to obtain information” has nada to do with breaking out a prisoner.

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19 hours ago, Sigella said:

Arya has been hanging out with smallfolk all her life. Barri hasnt.

 

Duskendale wasnt infiltrated: Barri snuck in and escaped with the King - so we are talking of different skills entirely.

Barristan has also been on a military campaign. Arya hasn’t.

as for hanging out with commoners all of her life, sure she has. But she always had her comfortable rooms and a hearty meal to go home to. She would be far less accustomed to a life of want and hardship than Barristan

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3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Barristan has also been on a military campaign. Arya hasn’t.

as for hanging out with commoners all of her life, sure she has. But she always had her comfortable rooms and a hearty meal to go home to. She would be far less accustomed to a life of want and hardship than Barristan

En general she did quite well in a good chunk of AGOT, ACOK and ASOS. She survived!

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24 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Shall I show you the definition of synonym?  Anyways, you sound like a troll.

I know what synonym means, too. And you are still wrong. :) 

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52 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

En general she did quite well in a good chunk of AGOT, ACOK and ASOS. She survived!

Of course, wasn’t doubting her abilities. Just pointing out the flaws in Sigella’s argument

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5 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Barristan has also been on a military campaign. Arya hasn’t.

as for hanging out with commoners all of her life, sure she has. But she always had her comfortable rooms and a hearty meal to go home to. She would be far less accustomed to a life of want and hardship than Barristan

Barristan has been at court since he was 23. Having been on campaign or at war doesn't say anything about blending in with the rabble. Nor does life at court prepare you for being robbed while asleep or being set upon by a swarm of gutter rats. Aryas experience with smallfolk far outweigh Barristans (very limited) experience of hardships.

I get what you mean but its shooting beside the target here.

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10 hours ago, Sigella said:

Barristan has been at court since he was 23. 

Uh, yeah.  Can't believe this hasn't been brought up in this weird Barristan v. Arya debate, but he literally has six times as much experience as she does.  Dude entered a tourney as a mystery knight when he was Arya's age.  And has lived in King's Landing, more or less, for 40 years.  I think he can manage a few days on the streets just fine.

Edited by DMC

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40 minutes ago, DMC said:

Uh, yeah.  Can't believe this hasn't been brought up in this weird Barristan v. Arya debate, but he literally has six times as much experience as she does.  Dude entered a tourney as a mystery knight when he was Arya's age.  And has lived in King's Landing, more or less, for 40 years.  I think he can manage a few days on the streets just fine.

Yeah it is a weird debate....and not much merit except to say that "you are wrong" as Sigella has clearly pointed out.  I'm sorry I brought up the damn point, for all the foolery involved. 

That particular comparison was made to suggest that it was possible that Barristan could have made it through all his time in KL undetected and made his way onto a ship to Pentos all by himself.  Not to discount any arguments that he was steered (likely) or aided knowingly (unlikely IMO) by Varys.  

Back to the point...... If anyone cares to weigh in.

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Selmy is the most famous knight alive. He is basically on the same level as the Dragonknight and Ryam Redwyne, and all the other historical and mythical guys.

And he was a Kingsguard, and now the Lord Commander, for decades.

It would not come easy to him disguise himself in a convincing manner, just as Jon Connington could never properly hide 'the lord' while he was playing the role of Griff.

Nobody is looking for street urchins when they look for a highborn girl, but Barristan the Bold is just Barristan the Bold in rags and with a beard. Chances that he could actually hide in KL without a hidden hand shielding him is very hard to believe. Perhaps he could hide, for a time, in parts of the city like Flea Bottom he would not have often gone while he was serving Robert and his predecessors, but the Kingslanders are not glued to their houses and quarters. They move about the city.

All that needed to happen for Selmy to be captured is that a single Lannister guardsman or sympathizer either recognized him, or witnessed another person recognizing him.

And at the harbor the risk must have been even higher considering that Cersei had her people there looking for Arya.

But even without all that his overall bearing when somebody provoked or bumped him, or when the people were just talking to him would have been not so much the actual behavior of an old commoner but rather how he imagined them to behave. Even Dany quickly realizes that there is more to the fellow Arstan than meets the eye.

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Selmy is the most famous knight alive. He is basically on the same level as the Dragonknight and Ryam Redwyne, and all the other historical and mythical guys.

And he was a Kingsguard, and now the Lord Commander, for decades.

It would not come easy to him disguise himself in a convincing manner, just as Jon Connington could never properly hide 'the lord' while he was playing the role of Griff.

Nobody is looking for street urchins when they look for a highborn girl, but Barristan the Bold is just Barristan the Bold in rags and with a beard. Chances that he could actually hide in KL without a hidden hand shielding him is very hard to believe. Perhaps he could hide, for a time, in parts of the city like Flea Bottom he would not have often gone while he was serving Robert and his predecessors, but the Kingslanders are not glued to their houses and quarters. They move about the city.

All that needed to happen for Selmy to be captured is that a single Lannister guardsman or sympathizer either recognized him, or witnessed another person recognizing him.

And at the harbor the risk must have been even higher considering that Cersei had her people there looking for Arya.

But even without all that his overall bearing when somebody provoked or bumped him, or when the people were just talking to him would have been not so much the actual behavior of an old commoner but rather how he imagined them to behave. Even Dany quickly realizes that there is more to the fellow Arstan than meets the eye.

And I totally agree with this.  You have some very good points there.  

I don't think it would be easy for him to disguise himself, and at the harbor, even more so.  I'm  just saying it is possible considering an example like plucking Aerys from the Dun Fort.  It's worth pointing out.

I certainly don't want to get into a "it's possible because, 'prove that it is not'" type discussion.  That goes nowhere.  

To me it is likely, as I said, that he was aided by Varys, but unknowingly.  

Edited by Wolf of the Steppes

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I can't believe people arguing that Barristan is such a complete and utter moron that his 60+ year old self can't find his way to Pentos. Geesh! Barry made his way to Illyrio on his own. If he was manipulated at all it was so subtle that Barry has absolutely no awareness of it. Therefore, we can assume that manipulation has nothing to do with Barry deciding to go to Pentos. Also, Illyrio couldn't send Barry to Aegon. Barry was looking for the legitimate ruler. That would be Dany since Viserys was dead. Barry would need a much better answer than Tyrion was given to get him to join that group.

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15 hours ago, bent branch said:

I can't believe people arguing that Barristan is such a complete and utter moron that his 60+ year old self can't find his way to Pentos. Geesh! Barry made his way to Illyrio on his own. If he was manipulated at all it was so subtle that Barry has absolutely no awareness of it. Therefore, we can assume that manipulation has nothing to do with Barry deciding to go to Pentos. 

Um, ok. It's thrones and Varys so I think we should assume manipulation, but whatever

15 hours ago, bent branch said:

Also, Illyrio couldn't send Barry to Aegon. Barry was looking for the legitimate ruler. That would be Dany since Viserys was dead. Barry would need a much better answer than Tyrion was given to get him to join that group.

Aegon is the son of Rhaegar. (Hes not, but he believes he is and they'd tell Selmy he is)The first son of a the first son comes before the second son (Viserys) or the third child (Dany)

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23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Um, ok. It's thrones and Varys so I think we should assume manipulation, but whatever

Except we are privy to Barristan's thoughts so we know he wasn't manipulated.

 

25 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Aegon is the son of Rhaegar. (Hes not, but he believes he is and they'd tell Selmy he is)The first son of a the first son comes before the second son (Viserys) or the third child (Dany)

Aegon is the dead son of Rhaegar. Barristan would need a good explanation as to how Aegon supposedly survived. Tyrion wasn't given any explanation. Barristan was useful to Varys and Illyrio by simply allowing him to chart his own path. Why try to manipulate him in any other way?

Also, what many don't seem to realize is that Belwas sent with Barristan to protect Dany from Barristan if need be.

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12 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Except we are privy to Barristan's thoughts so we know he wasn't manipulated.

Selmy was manipulated by Varys. He arranged for his dismissal from the KG and he told him that Tywin would grant him a keep to die in.

Manipulation is not limited to talking to people directly, you can manipulate people indirectly, too. When Varys got Tyrion to murder Tywin he didn't have to tell him to kill him, too. He just set the stage for Tyrion actually coming to the conclusion he should kill his father, and gave him the means to do it.

12 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Aegon is the dead son of Rhaegar. Barristan would need a good explanation as to how Aegon supposedly survived. Tyrion wasn't given any explanation. Barristan was useful to Varys and Illyrio by simply allowing him to chart his own path. Why try to manipulate him in any other way?

The overall issue is that if Selmy had arrived at Pentos before Illyrio had learned about Dany and the dragons from Jorah's letter from Qarth then it is very odd he was neither told about Aegon nor sent to him. Viserys was dead, and Dany may have been considered to be dead, too, assuming Illyrio had gotten reports about Drogo's festering wound/likely death.

Selmy could grant Aegon much more legitimacy than Jon Connington can. Tywin and Renly are both very aware of the gravitas that comes with Barristan Selmy. Varys and Illyrio are not stupid enough to miss that.

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50 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Except we are privy to Barristan's thoughts so we know he wasn't manipulated.

We know Varys got him dismissed in the sc and then angered by Varys during his dismissal. Selmy says it took him a bit before it "came to him" to seek Viserys. Selmy then arrives in Illyrios manor.  

To me this screams agot manipulation, very Littlefingerish behavior; And Petyr and the Spider are like two peas in a pod

50 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Aegon is the dead son of Rhaegar. Barristan would need a good explanation as to how Aegon supposedly survived. Tyrion wasn't given any explanation.

Yea he was. He thought it a "splendid" explanation

Quote

The lad flushed. "That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner's son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away."

"Aye." Tyrion moved his elephants. "And when the pisswater prince was safely dead, the eunuch smuggled you across the narrow sea to his fat friend the cheesemonger, who hid you on a poleboat and found an exile lord willing to call himself your father. It does make for a splendid story, and the singers will make much of your escape once you take the Iron Throne ... assuming that our fair Daenerys takes you for her consort."

Selmy would gobble up that story 

54 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Also, what many don't seem to realize is that Belwas sent with Barristan to protect Dany from Barristan if need be.

Interesting. Why do you say that?

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

When Varys got Tyrion to murder Tywin he didn't have to tell him to kill him, too. He just set the stage for Tyrion actually coming to the conclusion he should kill his father, and gave him the means to do it.

What? So, ill give you that Shae seeing the Targaryen mosaic is a little suspect, but it could have been a fault on Varys. Everyone makes mistakes. 

As unbelievable as that may be, what are the chances hed know Tyrion would dabble in patricide or that Jaime would force Tyrion to be freed, all back in acok? 

And how did Varys set the stage? Cersei arrested him, Jaime named Tysha whore and Tywin tywined. Where do you spider webs?

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2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What? So, ill give you that Shae seeing the Targaryen mosaic is a little suspect, but it could have been a fault on Varys. Everyone makes mistakes. 

Varys would have heard Shae telling Tyrion about that. It was no coincidence that there was a burning brazier in the mosaic chamber when Varys and Tyrion arrived there.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And how did Varys set the stage? Cersei arrested him, Jaime named Tysha whore and Tywin tywined. Where do you spider webs?

Oh, he didn't set up this, just Tyrion going up there. And he knew Tywin had Shae up there, too. He may have even helped Tywin getting her in there unseen.

It is very obvious that Varys wanted to happen what happened with him telling Tyrion how to reach his father instead of, you know, physically preventing him from going up there or at least refusing to give him directions.

It gets even more obvious when Varys doesn't seem surprised one bit when Tyrion later tells him what he has done. Tyrion doesn't grasp how deeply he has been manipulated there, but he was.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys would have heard Shae telling Tyrion about that. It was no coincidence that there was a burning brazier in the mosaic chamber when Varys and Tyrion arrived there.

Interesting. 

Quote

A light appeared ahead of them, too dim to be daylight, and grew as they hurried toward it. After a while he could see it was an arched doorway, closed off by another iron gate. Varys produced a key. They stepped through into a small round chamber. Five other doors opened off the room, each barred in iron. There was an opening in the ceiling as well, and a series of rungs set in the wall below, leading upward. An ornate brazier stood to one side, fashioned in the shape of a dragon's head. The coals in the beast's yawning mouth had burnt down to embers, but they still glowed with a sullen orange light. Dim as it was, the light was welcome after the blackness of the tunnel.

That's pretty much how Shae described it too 

Quote

She gave a shrug. "Lord Varys made me wear a hood. I couldn't see, except . . . there was one place, I got a peep at the floor out the bottom of the hood. It was all tiles, you know, the kind that make a picture?"

"A mosaic?"

Shae nodded. "They were colored red and black. I think the picture was a dragon. Otherwise, everything was dark. We went down a ladder and walked a long ways, until I was all twisted around. Once we stopped so he could unlock an iron gate. I brushed against it when we went through. The dragon was past the gate. 

So why is there a brazer there? I assume these tunnels are strictly for little birds, so why do they need light? I mean they have no tounges but they still got eyes, but why cant they carry a torch or something? Perhaps the tower of the hand is a frequent hub of little birds, yet still your theory is holding some water. Whats holding me back still is 

Quote

The coals in the beast's yawning mouth had burnt down to embers

Embers. That takes a while. Jaime waited until late as hell before getting Varys to free Tyrion. So how/why if intentional were there embers and not a flame? 

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, he didn't set up this, just Tyrion going up there. And he knew Tywin had Shae up there, too. He may have even helped Tywin getting her in there unseen.

Word. Probably to both

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is very obvious that Varys wanted to happen what happened with him telling Tyrion how to reach his father instead of, you know, physically preventing him from going up there or at least refusing to give him directions.

Can he physically restrain him? I mean he is not a dwarf and not a weak and escaped prisoner, but still, Varys never seemed the fighting type. Although tell that to Pycelle, then again thats Pycelle.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It gets even more obvious when Varys doesn't seem surprised one bit when Tyrion later tells him what he has done. Tyrion doesn't grasp how deeply he has been manipulated there, but he was.

They dont speak for like half an hour before Tyrion tells Varys of Tywins death. It was obvious by them.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Selmy was manipulated by Varys. He arranged for his dismissal from the KG and he told him that Tywin would grant him a keep to die in.

Manipulation is not limited to talking to people directly, you can manipulate people indirectly, too. When Varys got Tyrion to murder Tywin he didn't have to tell him to kill him, too. He just set the stage for Tyrion actually coming to the conclusion he should kill his father, and gave him the means to do it.

You are missing the forest for the trees here. Cersei was the one being manipulated by Varys. Tywin explains that Selmy gives legitimacy to anyone he chooses to join and Varys talks Cersei into letting Selmy go. Varys has dealt a blow to the Lannisters with this act no matter what Selmy ultimately does. So, Varys' target with Selmy's dismissal was the Lannisters, not Selmy.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The overall issue is that if Selmy had arrived at Pentos before Illyrio had learned about Dany and the dragons from Jorah's letter from Qarth then it is very odd he was neither told about Aegon nor sent to him. Viserys was dead, and Dany may have been considered to be dead, too, assuming Illyrio had gotten reports about Drogo's festering wound/likely death.

Selmy could grant Aegon much more legitimacy than Jon Connington can. Tywin and Renly are both very aware of the gravitas that comes with Barristan Selmy. Varys and Illyrio are not stupid enough to miss that.

The problem here is that Selmy is not looking to get involved in shenanigans. Selmy had decided that his mistake was in not remaining true to the kingly family he had made his vow to. From this he decided to go look for his true king, who he believed to be Viserys. After learning that Viserys was dead he decided to go have a look at Dany. This was not something either Varys or Illyrio had to manipulate Selmy into doing and it helped them out. So, Selmy going to Dany wasn't a problem at all for Varys or Illyrio. Additionally, since it was always the plan to bring Aegon and Dany's parties together, it wasn't like Selmy going to Dany first was really any problem. Aegon going to Westeros without Dany (or Selmy) wasn't what they had planned.

Reasons to not tell Selmy about Aegon at that point:

1)  They would have been revealing the existence of Aegon to someone who they couldn't be of their reaction. Even Tyrion ended up in a position to out Aegon if he had wanted to.

2)  Selmy could have decided to pull out of choosing to go to either Targaryen if he felt he was being manipulated.

I had more reasons but forgot them as I was typing. Anyway, I don't see how sending Selmy to Aegon would have been of any benefit in light of their stated plans.  

ETA: Reason 3):  At the time Selmy goes to Illyrio he is unaware of the connection between Illyrio and Varys. To send Selmy to Aegon is to reveal that connection. And Selmy really doesn't trust Varys.

Edited by bent branch
Yay! I remembered.

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