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I can't say Visearys is the worst but somethings he did really has to make me put him in the top 3. 

Aegon IV though for me has to be worse especially since it was hinted he killed his dad. All his reign was corrupt i'm shocked more people didn't try and kill him.

Aerys II- Caused the Dynasty's down fall no forgiveness for that

Visaeys- lazy and really dumb it started when like many said why remarry when you know if you have sons it will cause an issue.  He himself noted that Alicient wants her blood on the throne when she pushed for Aegon to marry Rhaenyra. Appointed Otto again seriously why in the name of the old gods? Simple really lazy and didn't think clearly. Why wasn't Rhaenyra even on the counsel when she was to take over.

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I don't hold an overly negative view on the man. You could argue he didn't do enough to settle his succession but it was settled. Visarys had decreed without a shadow of doubt that his daughter would succeed him and the high lords had given their acceptance on the matter. The whole matter should have been put to rest with that. Even Rhaenyra's absence from the capitol wasn't really a mistake as much as a conventional arrangement, she's the heir so she gets to rule Dragonstone.  He can be blamed for not realizing the lengths his wise would stoop to but I don't really think its fair to blame him for that.

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One can easily enough compare Viserys/Rhaenyra to Aegon/Aenys.

Aegon also had two wives, and the wife of the younger child also wanted her brood on the throne, a man not only manifestly unsuited to rule anything, but also a man not entitled to inherit because he was the younger son.

That didn't stop Visenya from plotting in her son's favor, nor from undermining Prince/King Aenys.

If Viserys 'should have known' that a brutal civil war was coming, then Aegon the Conqueror should also have foreseen that his dear sister-wife and ingrate son would undermine the rule of his eldest child and chosen successor as well as later kill his beloved grandsons.

Aegon certainly must have seen that Aenys was also not exactly ideally suited to succeed him, and that he was pretty much no match for his dear stepmother and half-brother. Yet he didn't take steps to prevent Maegor's later usurpation or the subsequent civil war.

But somehow nobody blames the Conqueror for the wars of Aenys and Maegor's reign, despite the fact that it was pretty much as obvious as that things would explode further down the line than it was in the 120s AC.

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On 2/16/2019 at 6:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

If Viserys 'should have known' that a brutal civil war was coming, then Aegon the Conqueror should also have foreseen that his dear sister-wife and ingrate son would undermine the rule of his eldest child and chosen successor as well as later kill his beloved grandsons.

 

I think neither Aegon suspected anything about Visenya being capable of acting against Aenys nor Viserys believed that Alicent was capable of all she did...

But I have to say on Visenya's behalf... that if Aenys had been a different man, a strong man, she would have been proud of her nephew and would never undermined him... remember she even tried to give him council...

I mean, Alicent and Visenya... two extremely different animals...

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22 minutes ago, MushroomIsNoFool said:

I think neither Aegon suspected anything about Visenya being capable of acting against Aenys nor Viserys believed that Alicent was capable of all she did...

But I have to say on Visenya's behalf... that if Aenys had been a different man, a strong man, she would have been proud of her nephew and would never undermined him... remember she even tried to give him council...

I mean, Alicent and Visenya... two extremely different animals...

We don't really know. Any sane person should also have seen that Maegor did not deserve a crown but rather a pillow in the face even as a child/youth. He was not fit to sit the Iron Throne or rule over anyone. Yet Visenya apparently always favored her brat over her stepson and nephew.

And, sure, Aenys had his flaws, but Visenya shares a significant part of the blame for the troubles he faced during his reign considering that she undermined his rule from the start, spreading this tale that Aenys giving Blackfyre to Maegor was a sign that this was basically 'the kingdom' and that Maegor had the strength to rule, not Aenys, and that Aenys himself acknowledged that.

When we talk about appearances and reputations then rumors can be very toxic. Visenya claiming Aenys was too weak to rule could easily have been a self-fulfilling prophecy that made it so. And this kind of thing extended to Aenys' sons, too. Aegon the Uncrowned likely wouldn't have been seen as weak had Visenya and others not spread as many tales about Aenys. This is also where Maegor - at least with our current knowledge - is actually better than his dear mother in the sense that he apparently never did anything to undermine his elder brother while he was heir to the Iron Throne and then later king.

Instead, a truly loyal stepmother and aunt would have tried to counsel and support her king as best she could. Indecisiveness is bad in a king, but nothing that cannot be overcome if you are surrounded by loyal friends and advisers who help you make the right decision or who take charge and do what you fail to do when it is really necessary.

I'd say that had Viserys I not put Otto and Alicent in a position where they could effectively stage a coup and withhold the throne from Rhaenyra to crown their own pretender, chances are very high that Alicent would have become a Visenya-like character further down the road.

If Rhaenyra had been Hand or in an otherwise powerful position at the time of her father's death she would have taken the throne, but Alicent and Otto and Aegon the Elder would have later caused some rebellion either during Rhaenyra's reign or when her eldest son was supposed to succeed her - like Maegor then did when Aegon the Uncrowned was to follow his father Aenys.

In that sense I think the only difference here is that Otto/Alicent were in better positions than Visenya and Maegor when they staged their coup, not exactly worse people. If Visenya had been able to prevent Aenys' rise to the throne and crown her son in his stead she likely would have done it.

A crucial fact here also seems to be that Aegon the Conqueror died on Dragonstone. Aenys was originally not there when his father died, but Alyssa and the children were there, and the entire court which, apparently, was fiercely loyal to the succession as set up by King Aegon. Maegor was there, too, but either unwilling to challenge the succession or simply incapable of doing so.

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as you said... we will not know... what could have happened If Aenys had been a worthy son of his father... But my personal opinion is that Visenya would have supported him...

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14 hours ago, MushroomIsNoFool said:

as you said... we will not know... what could have happened If Aenys had been a worthy son of his father... But my personal opinion is that Visenya would have supported him...

But the issue is not really Aenys, is it? It is not Aenys vs. Maegor since they never actually clashed and Visenya never directly turned against him unless we buy unsupported rumors that she may have murdered him, it is Aegon vs. Maegor, and Visenya did all she could to ensure that her brother's grandsons did not get their birthright and die a dreadful death if they were to challenge the man she had made king.

This was all treason, and, by and far, the worst kind betrayal one can think of. Aegon I had made it crystal clear that he wanted his grandsons to succeed him and Aenys, not Maegor.

Edited by Lord Varys

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I think the worst are: Maegor, Aegon IV and Aerys II.

I think Daeron the Young Dragon deserves a mention, too. His total war against Dorne achieved nothing, except plowing the seeds of the Blackfyre Rebellion (many lords wanted revenge against Dorne, and couldn't a Dornish queen).

Aerys I was a bad king, but at least he had a capable man.

Aegon II has a mixed review. Several personal problems, but brought peace and stability.

Viserys I is blamed, to some extension, for things that happened after he died. In some ways he was a good king (his reign was an era of prosperity) but managed succession and family very poorly. It must be said they were a real difficult lot.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the issue is not really Aenys, is it? It is not Aenys vs. Maegor since they never actually clashed and Visenya never directly turned against him unless we buy unsupported rumors that she may have murdered him, it is Aegon vs. Maegor

Well .. what I was objecting really ... was the comparison between Alicent and Visenya.

Alicent was a Hightower, proud and devious ... she wanted her blood, her children to succed

Vysenia was a warrior, she respected nothing but strength ... for her, strength was even above wisdom ...

Very different sins ...

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On 2/16/2019 at 4:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

One can easily enough compare Viserys/Rhaenyra to Aegon/Aenys.

Aegon also had two wives, and the wife of the younger child also wanted her brood on the throne, a man not only manifestly unsuited to rule anything, but also a man not entitled to inherit because he was the younger son.

That didn't stop Visenya from plotting in her son's favor, nor from undermining Prince/King Aenys.

If Viserys 'should have known' that a brutal civil war was coming, then Aegon the Conqueror should also have foreseen that his dear sister-wife and ingrate son would undermine the rule of his eldest child and chosen successor as well as later kill his beloved grandsons.

Aegon certainly must have seen that Aenys was also not exactly ideally suited to succeed him, and that he was pretty much no match for his dear stepmother and half-brother. Yet he didn't take steps to prevent Maegor's later usurpation or the subsequent civil war.

But somehow nobody blames the Conqueror for the wars of Aenys and Maegor's reign, despite the fact that it was pretty much as obvious as that things would explode further down the line than it was in the 120s AC.

No one blames Aegon l for the wars of his son's, because none of Aegon l decisions had any impact on the events that followed his death. The idea that Aegon l should've somehow forseen that 6 years after his death, his heir Aenys would be dead and his younger son Maegor would usurp the throne is outrageous. 

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5 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

I think the worst are: Maegor, Aegon IV and Aerys II.

I think Daeron the Young Dragon deserves a mention, too. His total war against Dorne achieved nothing, except plowing the seeds of the Blackfyre Rebellion (many lords wanted revenge against Dorne, and couldn't a Dornish queen).

Aerys I was a bad king, but at least he had a capable man.

Aegon II has a mixed review. Several personal problems, but brought peace and stability.

Viserys I is blamed, to some extension, for things that happened after he died. In some ways he was a good king (his reign was an era of prosperity) but managed succession and family very poorly. It must be said they were a real difficult lot.

Is that a typo? Because Aegon II surely did NOT bring peace and stability by any metric

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7 hours ago, MushroomIsNoFool said:

Vysenia was a warrior, she respected nothing but strength ... for her, strength was even above wisdom ...

Very different sins ...

Visenya was all about the advancement of her son, just as Alicent was. This was what drove both women. Whatever difference there might be in temperament and martial prowess, it bottles down to that. And there both women didn't give a damn about their husband's grandchildren.

The Dance and the succession war after Aenys' death basically have the same root.

6 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

No one blames Aegon l for the wars of his son's, because none of Aegon l decisions had any impact on the events that followed his death. The idea that Aegon l should've somehow forseen that 6 years after his death, his heir Aenys would be dead and his younger son Maegor would usurp the throne is outrageous. 

This is by no means outrageous. For one, Aegon I failed to settle the issue with the Faith. He is to blame for instilling the desire in his descendants to continue the incest. If Aegon had taught Aenys that they would not marry his children to each other then Aegon and Rhaena (and Jaehaerys and Alysanne) wouldn't have grown up expecting to do this. He is also failed to settle the issue once and for all with the Faith. He could have crushed them like Maegor and Jaehaerys I later did, or he could have abandoned Targaryen incest. Instead he did neither. That was not helpful. He is to be blamed for that.

Further, we have ample evidence that Visenya and Aegon were on very bad terms during the last years of the Conqueror's life. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to assume that Aegon favoring Aenys and his grandchildren over Maegor may have had something to do with that.

If you know the nature of your sister-wife, the nature of your sadistic son, and the nature of your heir - who has trouble making firm decisions and isn't exactly a great warrior - then leaving things the way they are is a huge mistake.

If people pretend Viserys I should have foreseen what his family would do after his death - despite the fact that they actually took care to fool and deceive him about the depth of the animosity they felt when they were around him - then it is not wrong at all that Aegon I should have foreseen what Maegor might do should Aenys die early.

Aegon was better in the sense that he made it clear Aenys would succeed him, but he failed to ensure that the succession of his grandsons was secure.

And there would have been a rather easy remedy for that - exile Maegor, send him to the Wall, or kill him. Aegon had three grandsons and two granddaughters when he died. The dynasty would survive without the sadistic, sterile spare heir.

Edited by Lord Varys

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Visenya was all about the advancement of her son

Agreed... I only say that Visenya decided this when she realized that Aenys was not the right man to guide the evolution of their barely started Dinasty... not before... maybe she realized this while Aegon the Conqueror was alive, but she never said such things to her husband... She didn't knew in depth Aenys children, and probably she thought that they were no more than the seed of a weak man...

I mean... I'm not trying to excuse Visenya or anything like that... Only making a big diferentiation between Alicent and her...

Edited by MushroomIsNoFool
:)

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11 minutes ago, MushroomIsNoFool said:

Agreed... I only say that Visenya decided this when she realized that Aenys was not the right man to guide the evolution of their barely started Dinasty... not before... maybe she realized this while Aegon the Conqueror was alive, but she never said such things to her husband... She didn't knew in depth Aenys children, and probably she thought that they were no more than the seed of a weak man...

That is not what the material tells us. Visenya is pissed when Aenys and Alyssa have their first child and Rhaena and all the other children put Maegor further and further behind in the line of succession.

FaB gave us much more on the personalities of Aegon the Uncrowned and Viserys - especially the former - and Aegon is described as the finest young lance in the Seven Kingdoms. There was no reason to consider him weak, and during the reign of Aegon I both Aegon the Uncrowned and Maegor were weaklings in relation to the dragonrider thing considering that both of them didn't claim a dragon during the reign of the Conqueror.

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16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Visenya was all about the advancement of her son, just as Alicent was. This was what drove both women. Whatever difference there might be in temperament and martial prowess, it bottles down to that. And there both women didn't give a damn about their husband's grandchildren.

The Dance and the succession war after Aenys' death basically have the same root.

This is by no means outrageous. For one, Aegon I failed to settle the issue with the Faith. He is to blame for instilling the desire in his descendants to continue the incest. If Aegon had taught Aenys that they would not marry his children to each other then Aegon and Rhaena (and Jaehaerys and Alysanne) wouldn't have grown up expecting to do this. He is also failed to settle the issue once and for all with the Faith. He could have crushed them like Maegor and Jaehaerys I later did, or he could have abandoned Targaryen incest. Instead he did neither. That was not helpful. He is to be blamed for that.

Further, we have ample evidence that Visenya and Aegon were on very bad terms during the last years of the Conqueror's life. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to assume that Aegon favoring Aenys and his grandchildren over Maegor may have had something to do with that.

If you know the nature of your sister-wife, the nature of your sadistic son, and the nature of your heir - who has trouble making firm decisions and isn't exactly a great warrior - then leaving things the way they are is a huge mistake.

If people pretend Viserys I should have foreseen what his family would do after his death - despite the fact that they actually took care to fool and deceive him about the depth of the animosity they felt when they were around him - then it is not wrong at all that Aegon I should have foreseen what Maegor might do should Aenys die early.

Aegon was better in the sense that he made it clear Aenys would succeed him, but he failed to ensure that the succession of his grandsons was secure.

And there would have been a rather easy remedy for that - exile Maegor, send him to the Wall, or kill him. Aegon had three grandsons and two granddaughters when he died. The dynasty would survive without the sadistic, sterile spare heir.

So, you're blaming Aegon l for instilling a desire in his descendants to continue the practice of incest. Not the hundred of years that the Targaryen's practiced it before Aegon l. I must've missed the part where Aegon l  told Aenys to marry his children to one another. I'll agree Aegon l should've made it crystal clear to the HS and the Faith that Targaryens will continue to practice incest. Even without doing that the HS wouldn't have went all crazy over Rhaena and Aegon marrying, if Maegor didn't basically replace his niece by marrying someone else.  Frankly if the Faith was that against the Targaryen incest, they would've rebelled the moment Aenys took the throne. 

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1 hour ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

So, you're blaming Aegon l for instilling a desire in his descendants to continue the practice of incest. Not the hundred of years that the Targaryen's practiced it before Aegon l. I must've missed the part where Aegon l  told Aenys to marry his children to one another. I'll agree Aegon l should've made it crystal clear to the HS and the Faith that Targaryens will continue to practice incest. Even without doing that the HS wouldn't have went all crazy over Rhaena and Aegon marrying, if Maegor didn't basically replace his niece by marrying someone else.  Frankly if the Faith was that against the Targaryen incest, they would've rebelled the moment Aenys took the throne. 

My overall point was just to illustrate that the Conqueror sucked as much as Viserys I to ensure a peaceful succession down the road, yet nobody seems to blame him for that even remotely to the same degree as Viserys I.

And that makes pretty much sense, especially since all we know about the reign of Viserys I is basically pointless court gossip. True, we don't know much about the Conqueror's reign, either, but we actually do know something about his accomplishments. Viserys I's must have been much larger considering he finished the projects of his grandfather and had the most peaceful and prosperous reign of all the Targaryen kings. There were no wars on Targaryen soil throughout his reign, not even great calamities like the Shivers or the Winter Fever.

But, sure, Aegon I is to be blamed for the rather pointless continuation of Targaryen incest. He knew that the Faith was not liking that and he did no press the issue. He did not show them that he would do as he pleased on this matter and deal with them harshly when he was opposed. When Visenya wanted to marry Rhaena to Maegor he backed down.

At the same time he raised his son and grandchildren in the incestuous marriage mindset. We are told that Rhaena/Aegon and Jaehaerys/Alysanne grew up expecting to marry each other - which they only could have if their elders - especially their grandfather, the king - had tolerated and reinforced such notions. If Aegon had decided incest was over then neither Aenys nor Maegor would have been fed such ideas considering they were born and grew up years after the Conquest. And certainly none of the grandchildren would have been fed such ideas. Their distant ancestors have nothing to do with that.

Even Alyssa Velaryon grew up with and was happy with the idea of her children marrying each other. That only changed after the Faith Militant Uprising.

In light of the rather mundane marriage proposals the Targaryens entertain prior to and after the Faith Militant Uprising their insistence on the incest thing seems to be rather childish and stupid. And with those bastard dragonriders - especially one like Addam of Hull who, if he was indeed Corlys' son rather than Laenor's, would have had very, very diluted dragonlord blood (the last infusion of Targaryen blood would have been from Valaena Velaryon's Targaryen mother, and that only under the assumption that Corlys is also descended from her - if that was the case then the most recent Targaryen ancestor of Addam would have been his great-great-great-great-grandmother).

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My overall point was just to illustrate that the Conqueror sucked as much as Viserys I to ensure a peaceful succession down the road, yet nobody seems to blame him for that even remotely to the same degree as Viserys I.

And that makes pretty much sense, especially since all we know about the reign of Viserys I is basically pointless court gossip. True, we don't know much about the Conqueror's reign, either, but we actually do know something about his accomplishments. Viserys I's must have been much larger considering he finished the projects of his grandfather and had the most peaceful and prosperous reign of all the Targaryen kings. There were no wars on Targaryen soil throughout his reign, not even great calamities like the Shivers or the Winter Fever.

But, sure, Aegon I is to be blamed for the rather pointless continuation of Targaryen incest. He knew that the Faith was not liking that and he did no press the issue. He did not show them that he would do as he pleased on this matter and deal with them harshly when he was opposed. When Visenya wanted to marry Rhaena to Maegor he backed down.

At the same time he raised his son and grandchildren in the incestuous marriage mindset. We are told that Rhaena/Aegon and Jaehaerys/Alysanne grew up expecting to marry each other - which they only could have if their elders - especially their grandfather, the king - had tolerated and reinforced such notions. If Aegon had decided incest was over then neither Aenys nor Maegor would have been fed such ideas considering they were born and grew up years after the Conquest. And certainly none of the grandchildren would have been fed such ideas. Their distant ancestors have nothing to do with that.

Even Alyssa Velaryon grew up with and was happy with the idea of her children marrying each other. That only changed after the Faith Militant Uprising.

In light of the rather mundane marriage proposals the Targaryens entertain prior to and after the Faith Militant Uprising their insistence on the incest thing seems to be rather childish and stupid. And with those bastard dragonriders - especially one like Addam of Hull who, if he was indeed Corlys' son rather than Laenor's, would have had very, very diluted dragonlord blood (the last infusion of Targaryen blood would have been from Valaena Velaryon's Targaryen mother, and that only under the assumption that Corlys is also descended from her - if that was the case then the most recent Targaryen ancestor of Addam would have been his great-great-great-great-grandmother).

Did Aegon l back down from marrying Rhaena to Maegor over the Faith speaking against it or the fact that both Aenys and Alyssa spoke strongly against it? Probably because both of Rhaena parents were against it. Where was the Faith Militant uprising when Aegon died and Aenys took the throne? Surely if the Faith was that against Targaryen incest so strongly, they would've been against the abomination of incest  becoming King. Yet there was no call to arms, no outrageous remarks from the HS. Sure Aegon deserves a little of the blame for not making it clear that Targaryens would continue their practice of incest to the Faith  but the larger share of blame falls on both Aenys and the HS for the war that would follow.

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23 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Did Aegon l back down from marrying Rhaena to Maegor over the Faith speaking against it or the fact that both Aenys and Alyssa spoke strongly against it? Probably because both of Rhaena parents were against it. Where was the Faith Militant uprising when Aegon died and Aenys took the throne? Surely if the Faith was that against Targaryen incest so strongly, they would've been against the abomination of incest  becoming King. Yet there was no call to arms, no outrageous remarks from the HS. Sure Aegon deserves a little of the blame for not making it clear that Targaryens would continue their practice of incest to the Faith  but the larger share of blame falls on both Aenys and the HS for the war that would follow.

The High Septons and the Faith had come to accept Aegon I's incestuous marriages and the offspring thereof - likely both due to the fact that Aegon conquered Westeros and that his marriages were, possibly, not officiated by some septon on Dragonstone but rather the Valyrian way.

Thus there was no need to rebel once Aegon I died. They had accepted him, and they would accept Aenys and Maegor as long as they followed Westerosi marriage customs and would abandon their savage and abominable practices (not to mention that Maegor being married to the niece of the High Septon and the daughter of the Lord of Oldtown was an important reason why those guys didn't completely suck, too).

Chances are about zero that Aegon I cared much what his son and daughter-in-law had to say about the Rhaena-Maegor match. If Aenys was truly as weak as people claim then his opposition to that couldn't have been that strong - or even if it was, he would have backed down immediately once his father had made it clear that he, too, wanted such a marriage.

Aenys certainly underestimated the fallout that came from the Aegon-Rhaena match, and he dealt with that poorly. But it is still Aegon's fault that his son and successor had to deal with crap like that in the first place. Aegon had nearly forty years to break the back of the Faith but he did ... nothing. Despite the fact that he must have known that his son would have to deal with that because it was clear for the Targaryens that Aegon and Rhaena and Jaehaerys and Alysanne would marry each other. That's how they were brought up.

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