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Sor Peter, the Tall

Is Braavos impregnable?

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As far as we know about Braavos, it seems impossible, or at least very hard to invade:

- Extremely large navy

- Few entrance points (all heavy guarded, mainly the major entrance with the Titan)

- the land  surrounding it is very harsh and difficult to make an anfibious assault

- And many other things I forgot.

Do you guys, have any thoughts about that?

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Do you have Dragons?, maybe submarines...

no?

Then forget about it!

Only One possible entrance for an army, only one entrance guarded as if they were pemanently at war...

It's a swamp surrounded by a jungle, a floating city... by land? impossible...

Only you can do is a siege by sea, a blockade.. How expensive that sounds? can anyone be a match to the Iron Bank?

Only with dragons... this is the reason why, the theory of the faceless men being in a mission to kill Dany's Dragons is so, so strong...

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1 hour ago, MushroomIsNoFool said:

Do you have Dragons?, maybe submarines...

no?

Then forget about it!

Only One possible entrance for an army, only one entrance guarded as if they were pemanently at war...

It's a swamp surrounded by a jungle, a floating city... by land? impossible...

Only you can do is a siege by sea, a blockade.. How expensive that sounds? can anyone be a match to the Iron Bank?

Only with dragons... this is the reason why, the theory of the faceless men being in a mission to kill Dany's Dragons is so, so strong...

That makes sense. Dragons are vital for any invasion, but even with dragons it would be a pain in the butt to conquest Braavos

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12 minutes ago, Sor Peter, the Tall said:

That makes sense. Dragons are vital for any invasion, but even with dragons it would be a pain in the butt to conquest Braavos

Almost impregnable anyway, so long as it has control of the seas.

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Almost, but not quite, an adversary with a bigger fleet and more money could theoretically blockade Bravos until the Arsenal runs dry, the Bravosi say they can build a ship in  a day, but for how many days in a row do you think they could really do that?

And espionage can work against the Bravosi as well, Sealords can be assassinated,(i mention this only because it seems sometimes people forget there are other killers for hire on planestos than the faceless men) and for example if a team of infliltraitors were to take out the sweet water river(the aqueduct) it could cause serious problems for Bravos, especially during a siege.

Also, the Iron Bank is a huge advantage but the Iron Bank is not the Sealord, and Bravos simply can not use the money of the banks customers to fund the sealords wars,( the upstart Rogare Bank tries this in Lys, the Bank is ruined and Lys is greatly diminished as a power, this is explained in detail in FaB), it would destroy the IB. So, no Bravos does not have as much money as one might assume. The Bank by it's very nature is also a bit of a double edged sword in my opinion, it gives Bravos a huge economic advantage, but also(again, in my opinion) could make them susceptible to economic warfare by a well prepared and positioned adversary.

Edited by Back door hodor

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1 hour ago, Back door hodor said:

Almost, but not quite, an adversary with a bigger fleet and more money could theoretically blockade Bravos until the Arsenal runs dry, the Bravosi say they can build a ship in  a day, but for how many days in a row do you think they could really do that?

And espionage can work against the Bravosi as well, Sealords can be assassinated,(i mention this only because it seems sometimes people forget there are other killers for hire on planestos than the faceless men) and for example if a team of infliltraitors were to take out the sweet water river(the aqueduct) it could cause serious problems for Bravos, especially during a siege.

Also, the Iron Bank is a huge advantage but the Iron Bank is not the Sealord, and Bravos simply can not use the money of the banks customers to fund the sealords wars,( the upstart Rogare Bank tries this in Lys, the Bank is ruined and Lys is greatly diminished as a power, this is explained in detail in FaB), it would destroy the IB. So, no Bravos does not have as much money as one might assume. The Bank by it's very nature is also a bit of a double edged sword in my opinion, it gives Bravos a huge economic advantage, but also(again, in my opinion) could make them susceptible to economic warfare by a well prepared and positioned adversary.

I forgot about the Aqueduct. But I imagine they also have lots of defenses there. 

I also like your idea about the Iron Bank been a double edge sword, never thought of that before

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As I said... without Dragons uhmmm...

A huge conspiracy is needed... The defenses of the city are just exagerated...

You need an economic boicot, you need Lorath on your side... you need the pirates from Lys and Tyrosh, if not on your side, at least to remain neutral...

I mean... for me... without Dragons forget about it...

The very foundation of Braavoos is about escaping from slavery, the damned place was a secret for centuries... The Iron Bank will do everything so Braavos remain a free city...

Edited by MushroomIsNoFool
:)

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3 hours ago, MushroomIsNoFool said:

As I said... without Dragons uhmmm...

A huge conspiracy is needed... The defenses of the city are just exagerated...

You need an economic boicot, you need Lorath on your side... you need the pirates from Lys and Tyrosh, if not on your side, at least to remain neutral...

I mean... for me... without Dragons forget about it...

The very foundation of Braavoos is about escaping from slavery, the damned place was a secret for centuries... The Iron Bank will do everything so Braavos remain a free city...

I suspect that if IB really had to choose between profits and interests of Braavos their answer would be "Fuck Braavos!" Or basically I believe in saying what happens when money talks.

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1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that if IB really had to choose between profits and interests of Braavos their answer would be "Fuck Braavos!" Or basically I believe in saying what happens when money talks.

I don't think so...

Yo see... the Iron Bank is the center of Braavos governement really... The Magisters and Keyholders are those who choose the Sealord...

So, the best interests of Iron Bank and those of the free city of Braavos are the same.

The Iron Bank doesn't get involved into politics, they only think in numbers... the only people they'd never ever finance are the slavers, and we can't even be absolutely sure about this. So, no definitive enemies, only maybe the aristocracy of the slavers bay...

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It's not really impregnable. Actually it's quite vulnerable, just not for the common reasons. If the sweetwater river is disrupted or re-routed, the population is pretty well screwed. The only water left is the lagoon water, which has to be boiled. Firewood is expensive as hell in Braavos and has to be brought in by barge.

We don't know if it's brought it through the titan or downriver from the forests inland. Either way, they are going to be hard pressed to provide enough for the entire city to have potable water and that can be cut off almost completely it the inland river ways are blocked or set up for ambushes.

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If the sweetwater river is disrupted or re-routed

hum... could be a good stratagem, but how feasible..? how much do we know of the control of the river? I guess Braavos has full control of it...

Is the only City where the river leads or flow through... isn't it? the river comes from a big ass jungle...

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13 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Almost, but not quite, an adversary with a bigger fleet and more money could theoretically blockade Bravos until the Arsenal runs dry, the Bravosi say they can build a ship in  a day, but for how many days in a row do you think they could really do that?

And espionage can work against the Bravosi as well, Sealords can be assassinated,(i mention this only because it seems sometimes people forget there are other killers for hire on planestos than the faceless men) and for example if a team of infliltraitors were to take out the sweet water river(the aqueduct) it could cause serious problems for Bravos, especially during a siege.

Also, the Iron Bank is a huge advantage but the Iron Bank is not the Sealord, and Bravos simply can not use the money of the banks customers to fund the sealords wars,( the upstart Rogare Bank tries this in Lys, the Bank is ruined and Lys is greatly diminished as a power, this is explained in detail in FaB), it would destroy the IB. So, no Bravos does not have as much money as one might assume. The Bank by it's very nature is also a bit of a double edged sword in my opinion, it gives Bravos a huge economic advantage, but also(again, in my opinion) could make them susceptible to economic warfare by a well prepared and positioned adversary.

You are right about a lot.  It will be hard to invade but not close to impossible.  A blockade would work effectively.  The more inconvenient a place is to siege, the more inconvenient it will be for its allies to provide it with supplies.  So to answer the OP's question, no it is not impossible, merely inconvenient.  

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1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

You are right about a lot.  It will be hard to invade but not close to impossible.  A blockade would work effectively.  The more inconvenient a place is to siege, the more inconvenient it will be for its allies to provide it with supplies.  So to answer the OP's question, no it is not impossible, merely inconvenient.  

This is a good sentence “The more inconvenient a place is to siege, the more inconvenient it will be for its allies to provide it with supplies.” The Eyrie is a great example

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4 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

You are right about a lot.  It will be hard to invade but not close to impossible.  A blockade would work effectively.  The more inconvenient a place is to siege, the more inconvenient it will be for its allies to provide it with supplies.  So to answer the OP's question, no it is not impossible, merely inconvenient.  

Thanks, and honestly from a strictly literary(non military) analysis, whenever something is built up to be or made out to be invincible/indestructible/unconquerable, it's usually the author setting something up. In other words, Bravos will be conquered simply because we(the readers)think it cant

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12 hours ago, MushroomIsNoFool said:

As I said... without Dragons uhmmm...

A huge conspiracy is needed... The defenses of the city are just exagerated...

You need an economic boicot, you need Lorath on your side... you need the pirates from Lys and Tyrosh, if not on your side, at least to remain neutral...

I mean... for me... without Dragons forget about it...

The very foundation of Braavoos is about escaping from slavery, the damned place was a secret for centuries... The Iron Bank will do everything so Braavos remain a free city...

Not everything, the Iron Bank simply CAN NOT finance the sealords under the table, they would have to officially loan him the money, read Fire and Blood, the Rogares tried to do this with Lys and The Rogare Bank, It didn't end well. 

The Iron Bank is not the Sealords private war chest 

Edited by Back door hodor

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19 hours ago, MushroomIsNoFool said:

hum... could be a good stratagem, but how feasible..? how much do we know of the control of the river? I guess Braavos has full control of it...

Is the only City where the river leads or flow through... isn't it? the river comes from a big ass jungle...

Pretty easy actually. The Goths (visigoths iirc) destroyed the canals going into rome and they suffered bad. If it's more formidable, though, I'd point to Alexander rerouting the Euphrates (might have been a roman) or the Lezarde at Harfleur as real world examples of ancient or medieval armies moving rivers. 

As to where it leads or where it comes from, we don't really have much of an idea. Maybe maps from LOAIF are better but I haven't seen much detail that would let us know one way or another. People get thirsty real quick though

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2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Pretty easy actually. The Goths (visigoths iirc) destroyed the canals going into rome and they suffered bad. If it's more formidable, though, I'd point to Alexander rerouting the Euphrates (might have been a roman) or the Lezarde at Harfleur as real world examples of ancient or medieval armies moving rivers. 

As to where it leads or where it comes from, we don't really have much of an idea. Maybe maps from LOAIF are better but I haven't seen much detail that would let us know one way or another. People get thirsty real quick though

in Lands of Ice and Fire, there is a map only for Braavos. In the map, all the watch towers are enhanced just as the aqueduct. All land around the aqueduct is hard to get an army close to it. Also, I imagine it is almost impossible to circle around the main opening (The Titan), leaving few options. Cut the enemy’s water supply is great, but make it happen is not that easy

Edited by Sor Peter, the Tall

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16 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Not everything, the Iron Bank simply CAN NOT finance the sealords under the table, they would have to officially loan him the money, read Fire and Blood, the Rogares tried to do this with Lys and The Rogare Bank, It didn't end well. 

The Iron Bank is not the Sealords private war chest 

I'm not talking about the IB just giving money to the sealord in blind eyes... I mean through the council just how they manage everything...

I think Rogare Bank of Lys isn't the best example, There were other Banks from other families in Lys, I think The IB is the only bank big enough in Braavos, even I guess no Lysenne bank has such level of an organization, Rogares Bank only grew that much in resources due to all the money that came from Westeros, thanks to the influence the got in a sudden in the seven kingdoms.

Is Braavos Impregnable? ok is not... but is in a level of difficulty where you need to put on perspective the pros and cons. Does it worth it? 

The river rerouting... ok, feasible... but how expensive? how long would that be as a campaign? all the logistics... Does it worth it?

I talked about Lorath before... if they have a good channel for provisions from Lorath, they can extend a conflict enough, to the point where their enemies will just abandon the campaign.

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Keep in mind we only see the aqueduct next to Braavos. It comes from miles and miles away, and can't be defended by military outposts all along. That's the point of a siege, by the way - you cut all outer supplies to the city you're sieging, so that they'll starve and die off.

As for historical cases, Belisarius did it to Vandal-occupied Carthage, I think - or was it to Goth-occupied Rome? Cortes more or less did the same to Tenochtitlan. The larger the city, the more exposed it is, basically.

River rerouting is way more difficult. And in some cases, it wasn't done to cut off water supply, but actually to allow passage to the invading/sieging army. Cyrus sieging Babylon is a (probably legendary, considering the insane works required) famous case.

Braavos is very difficult to blockade by sea, so cutting food supplies is very difficult. Cutting water supply is easier - they probably couldn't resupply by ships, so in this case you only need supremacy over land, when you require full dominance of both land and sea to cut off food supply.

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53 minutes ago, MushroomIsNoFool said:

 

I talked about Lorath before... if they have a good channel for provisions from Lorath, they can extend a conflict enough, to the point where their enemies will just abandon the campaign.

Where would you imagine this channel to be?

As far as I can tell, from both text and maps the Titan is the only way into the lagoon where Bravos sits and the overland route I understand to be too swampy to move large supplies of goods over, if its passable at all, there are definitely no land roads spoken of in text or depicted on canonical maps.

Also, the Bank may not be as tied to or have the interest in maintaining the political system in Bravos as one might think.

If faced with a losing situation I could see them playing the long game, allowing the regime change in the short term while making long term contingency plans to simply make another change if necessary 

Edited by Back door hodor

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