UK Politics : Groundhog May

[Werthead]

Yes...

 

[Nevarfeather]

The way brexiters keep coming back to a solution where Ireland needs to throw away it's sovereignty in order to facilitate Theresa May's red lines shows how deep the imperial arrogance is connected to brexit. What next, the French should declare Calais is a British Territory? 

when with the British learn the Empire is over?
I'm starting to think they deserve no-deal, it's the only way they will learn anything 

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Nevarfeather said:

The way brexiters keep coming back to a solution where Ireland needs to throw away it's sovereignty in order to facilitate Theresa May's red lines shows how deep the imperial arrogance is connected to brexit. What next, the French should declare Calais is a British Territory? 

when with the British learn the Empire is over?
I'm starting to think they deserve no-deal, it's the only way they will learn anything 

How many people are actually suggesting it? I've never heard anyone even bring the subject up. In fact Peter Grant who asked the question to Bertie Ahern is an avowed Remainer, and clearly knew the question's response. 

There has been far more suggestion that N.Ireland should break away from the UK than the other way around. 

 

[mormont]

9 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

How many people are actually suggesting it?

Out loud? Not that many. But that's not the complaint. The complaint is that people keep suggesting 'solutions' to the border issue, or indeed taking other steps related to Brexit, that infringe on the sovereignty of the Republic or the rights of Irish citizens, with seemingly no consideration given to those issues. And then complaining that the EU are being unreasonable in not accepting them. A very clear message emerges. 

[Nevarfeather]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

How many people are actually suggesting it? I've never heard anyone even bring the subject up. In fact Peter Grant who asked the question to Bertie Ahern is an avowed Remainer, and clearly knew the question's response. 

There has been far more suggestion that N.Ireland should break away from the UK than the other way around. 

 

you don't get out in Leave heartlands much?
I've heard it vocalised quiet a lot sadly, along with things like who does Leo think he is.....

it's quiet nasty here right now, especially if you are Irish

[BigFatCoward]

Another loss. You have to admire her consistency. 

[Jen'ari]

5 hours ago, Nevarfeather said:

you don't get out in Leave heartlands much?
I've heard it vocalised quiet a lot sadly, along with things like who does Leo think he is.....

it's quiet nasty here right now, especially if you are Irish

Really?, I’ve not heard of anyone having much of an anti Irish sentiment but then I’m in the south so I suppose hardly a Brexit heartland.

More to the point why should the Republic of Ireland bend over backwards to accommodate the UK?.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

Another loss. You have to admire her consistency. 

It would be funny, if it wasn't for the fact that it was no-no-deal amendment the ERG sunk.

[williamjm]

8 hours ago, Nevarfeather said:

What next, the French should declare Calais is a British Territory?

Don't give them ideas.

[Chaircat Meow]

I disagree that Brexit is much to do with Imperial nostalgia. I'm sure there are some people who have said things that are best described this way but overall I do not think Brexit represents a hankering after The Empire. This excellent article from Robert Saunders is a good primer for this.

Other than HoI/SeanF and Pet Leech I think everyone in this thread is a Remainer/Reverser. It is important to understand those who disagree with you  and that entails killing this imperial nostalgia idea. If anything Remainers care just as much, if not more, about the power-status of Britain.

[Heartofice]

I see the 'Harking back to the Empire' argument quite a lot and I think it's a big mis-characterisation of a lot of Brexit supporters. There is definitely a sense that Britain is not part of Europe, and never has been, history and the Empire maybe are part of why a lot of Brits feel that way.

But I don't see anyone wanting to bring back the empire. I do think there is a sense of humiliation, that some don't like about taking rules from the EU, maybe that is a false sense of importance, but it does also feed into a British idea of democracy and a fear of large bureaucratic institutions. 

If anything it is the fear of empire, of a large unaccountable European state that drives a lot of Brexiteers. 

 

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

It would be funny, if it wasn't for the fact that it was no-no-deal amendment the ERG sunk.

Well it was a motion, and was mostly completely meaningless. 

The ERG just realise that any attempt to rule out no-deal is just another way to hopefully reverse Brexit. 

[Liffguard]

16 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I do think there is a sense of humiliation, that some don't like about taking rules from the EU, maybe that is a false sense of importance

I think when people talk about Brexit being a result of harking for the days of empire, this is kind of what they mean. I doubt many people are specifically drifitng off to dreams of gunboat diplomacy and a third of the map being pink, it's more subliminal than that. As you say, a more generalised sense of humiliation. A lot of our national stories and mythmaking have an underlying assumption of exceptionalism built in, and a lot of people seemed to just inherently resent being only one nation amongst a group of many, regardless of what the actual merits of the situation were.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

I think when people talk about Brexit being a result of harking for the days of empire, this is kind of what they mean. I doubt many people are specifically drifitng off to dreams of gunboat diplomacy and a third of the map being pink, it's more subliminal than that. As you say, a more generalised sense of humiliation. A lot of our national stories and mythmaking have an underlying assumption of exceptionalism built in, and a lot of people seemed to just inherently resent being only one nation amongst a group of many, regardless of what the actual merits of the situation were.

Yes I agree. Also our national stories and culture are probably closer to the other side of the Atlantic than across the channel.

We also have strong sense of self determination and control that maybe other countries who’ve had centuries of invasion and termoil don’t have. 

[Chaircat Meow]

17 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yes I agree. Also our national stories and culture are probably closer to the other side of the Atlantic than across the channel.

We also have strong sense of self determination and control that maybe other countries who’ve had centuries of invasion and termoil don’t have. 

Another important point, the British psyche is not solely, or even mostly determined by empire. The grounds for holding aloof from the European project are very little to do with having once ruled Ireland and India. They are, on the other hand, a lot to do with avoiding defeat and humiliation (to a point, anyway) in WW2, and actually in previous struggles, the experience that pervades the continental European consciousness and sustains a greater level of support for European unity there. Chalking all this up to empire is a pretty cheap rhetorical ploy designed to cast Brexiteers as thirsty for domination, which they are largely not. 

It is striking that so many Brexiteers think Brexit is still worth it if it destroys the country itself and brings on Scottish secession.* These people are not imperialists, they are foolish little Englanders. 

In other words, mad but not completely bad. 

And it is also worth saying there is opposition in all continental countries to the EU, and a sense of disempowerment too. In a recent poll in France put support for Frexit at 40% (can't be arsed to find link). If you Brexit is hard verging on disastrous Frexit would be Armageddon. 

*not guaranteed to happen of course. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Good news my Eurocommie friends!

You were beating us in the race to see which country’s government is descending into madness faster, but alas Trump is going full Caesar on this side on the Pond and we’ve caught up to you!

Hurrah!

 

[polishgenius]

2 hours ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

I disagree that Brexit is much to do with Imperial nostalgia. I'm sure there are some people who have said things that are best described this way but overall I do not think Brexit represents a hankering after The Empire. This excellent article from Robert Saunders is a good primer for this.

I don't think that Brexit as a thing is much driven by Imperial nostalgia but I do think that much of the attitude towards the deal on the table, to how negotiations should be approached, and to how a post-Brexit Britain is actually going to function stinks of a holdover of Imperial attitudes and an assumption that other nations are nostalgic for Empire or at least look fondly enough on that past to run to our aid (from the Commonwealth side) or respect Britain as if it was still a superpower (there was obvious genuine shock when Europe didn't react like this).

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Liffguard said:

I think when people talk about Brexit being a result of harking for the days of empire, this is kind of what they mean. I doubt many people are specifically drifitng off to dreams of gunboat diplomacy and a third of the map being pink, it's more subliminal than that. As you say, a more generalised sense of humiliation. A lot of our national stories and mythmaking have an underlying assumption of exceptionalism built in, and a lot of people seemed to just inherently resent being only one nation amongst a group of many, regardless of what the actual merits of the situation were.

I think that's a good point. There does seem to be a belief in British exceptionalism, that we are special because reasons. Sentiment doesn't fly much on the international stage, especially not with countries like the USA and China. If Britain is to make its way in the world as a strong country outside a larger trading bloc, then it needs to do so on merit, which means that it needs to be building something other countries want, or providing services other countries need. The former kind of went out the window a few generations back (what we are left building is fairly minimal, although not negligible) and the latter is very much rooted in access to the European single market, especially for banking, finance and services. These may continue in a post-deal Brexit scenario in a limited fashion, but in the case of a no-deal Brexit they will disappear faster than David Cameron when presented with the word "responsibility."

I blame some of this on the fact that History is not a mandatory subject in British schools, hence the total lack of understanding of the Irish issues by many and a very confused understanding of WWII, especially the "plucky little island standing on its own", which is more romantic but somewhat less accurate than "colossal mega-empire incorporating a quarter of the world's population and a fifth of its economy standing kind of its own if you don't count half of Africa and all of India and Pakistan and Canada and Australia and New Zealand, with the combined economic might thereof, oh and also a lot of Spitfires were flown by French people and Poles and Czechs btw."

That kind of brings back to one of the original points that Brexiters have constantly refused to address: a no-deal Brexit will require a substantial re-ordering of the British paradigm of life, since financial services will move to the continent en masse and we're left making jack shit to sell to people (well, apart from Airbus wings...no, they're gone as well). What is Britain going to be offering to the world that the world can't get cheaper elsewhere?

[Fez]

8 minutes ago, Werthead said:

That kind of brings back to one of the original points that Brexiters have constantly refused to address: a no-deal Brexit will require a substantial re-ordering of the British paradigm of life, since financial services will move to the continent en masse and we're left making jack shit to sell to people (well, apart from Airbus wings...no, they're gone as well). What is Britain going to be offering to the world that the world can't get cheaper elsewhere?

Could become the go-to tax haven for wealthy foreigners looking to hide their money; seems like there's demand for someone to step up to the plate there with so many other former tax havens slowly cracking down over the past 10 years.

It'd be easy with no pesky EU banking regulations to get in the way.

[Chaircat Meow]

37 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I think that's a good point. There does seem to be a belief in British exceptionalism, that we are special because reasons. Sentiment doesn't fly much on the international stage, especially not with countries like the USA and China. If Britain is to make its way in the world as a strong country outside a larger trading bloc, then it needs to do so on merit, which means that it needs to be building something other countries want, or providing services other countries need. The former kind of went out the window a few generations back (what we are left building is fairly minimal, although not negligible) and the latter is very much rooted in access to the European single market, especially for banking, finance and services. These may continue in a post-deal Brexit scenario in a limited fashion, but in the case of a no-deal Brexit they will disappear faster than David Cameron when presented with the word "responsibility."

I blame some of this on the fact that History is not a mandatory subject in British schools, hence the total lack of understanding of the Irish issues by many and a very confused understanding of WWII, especially the "plucky little island standing on its own", which is more romantic but somewhat less accurate than "colossal mega-empire incorporating a quarter of the world's population and a fifth of its economy standing kind of its own if you don't count half of Africa and all of India and Pakistan and Canada and Australia and New Zealand, with the combined economic might thereof, oh and also a lot of Spitfires were flown by French people and Poles and Czechs btw." 

That kind of brings back to one of the original points that Brexiters have constantly refused to address: a no-deal Brexit will require a substantial re-ordering of the British paradigm of life, since financial services will move to the continent en masse and we're left making jack shit to sell to people (well, apart from Airbus wings...no, they're gone as well). What is Britain going to be offering to the world that the world can't get cheaper elsewhere?

So now you're accusing Brexiteers of forgetting about the empire? If so, the logic of your argument of Brexit resulting from Imperial nostalgia is dark.

You are of course absolutely right to stress that Britain was a global/imperial power in WW2, not 'a plucky little island.' However, your remarks about 'a colossal mega-empire' with a 'fifth of its [the world's] economy' are a bit silly. Why is it a mega-empire, are you saying the British Empire was so mighty it dwarfed mere empires. And lets be honest, the industrial and financial base of the British war effort in WW2 was nearly all the home island itself; India was not churning out tanks, planes or oil. Vital imports, especially oil and other essential raw materials did not come from Africa or the Middle East either but the United States (which had been out of the Empire for some time). So even if on paper the British Empire had a greater GDP and population than the Third Reich, it wasn't stronger in virtue of that. You can't leverage undeveloped colonial empires, full of peasants, into tipping the balance in a war of industrial nations.

Agree with points about French, Poles and Czechs, also Norwegians too. They had the fourth largest merchant marine in WW2 and managed to evacuate it to Britain in the wake of the Hitlerite invasion.   

Anyway, Brexit is a bad idea … 

edit: not sure what you have against our manufacturing sector either.