A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Mosi Mynn said: It seems a long time ago now - but nobody seemed to think Leave had a chance of winning. Remain did not put up much of a fight/persuasive argument because they did not think they needed to. Yes, the Remain campaign was a proper shamble. With a PM too scared of the right wing of his party and the right wing media moguls to show up to campaign for his prefered choice (I avoid the word belief, as I don't think that Etonian pig f... does hold any; other than him being born into privilege was by his own merit). And with the Labour leader being indifferent at best towards the referendum outcome. However it is not that easy to campaign on status quo, when you have spent yourself years to blame the EU for every shitty decission you took (yourself) in goverment. If you want to cast the blame, I'd start with the media, who were either campaign driven (one of Rupert's pet projects), or those who were unable to properly report on the issues, fact check and hold campaigner to account properly over blatant lies, out of some misguided idea of neutrality (BBC), and thus failed to educate their audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosi Mynn Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 9 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Yes, the Remain campaign was a proper shamble. With a PM too scared of the right wing of his party and the right wing media moguls to show up to campaign for his prefered choice (I avoid the word belief, as I don't think that Etonian pig f... does hold any; other than him being born into privilege was by his own merit). And with the Labour leader being indifferent at best towards the referendum outcome. However it is not that easy to campaign on status quo, when you have spent yourself years to blame the EU for every shitty decission you took (yourself) in goverment. If you want to cast the blame, I'd start with the media, who were either campaign driven (one of Rupert's pet projects), or those who were unable to properly report on the issues, fact check and hold campaigner to account properly over blatant lies, out of some misguided idea of neutrality (BBC), and thus failed to educate their audience. Totally agree with all if this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 The Remain camp did a pretty bad job of putting its point across but I think that it also understimated how possible it was to change peoples already entrenched opinions. I think even with a good campaign it wouldn’t have made a great deal of difference to people’s choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 14 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said: Yep - good idea. It seems a long time ago now - but nobody seemed to think Leave had a chance of winning. Remain did not put up much of a fight/persuasive argument because they did not think they needed to. Remain campaigners did not think Leave would win. But Leave campaigners did not think Leave would win either. That's one reason why they had no coherent plan: they never thought they'd need one. Everyone believed that Remain would win, narrowly. So May, for example, stayed out of it as far as she could, not wanting to earn enemies on the backbenches for nothing. Johnson, on the other hand, decided to campaign for Leave for the opposite reason, to build support in the party for a leadership bid. Again, it was all about internal Conservative party politicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosi Mynn Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, mormont said: Remain campaigners did not think Leave would win. But Leave campaigners did not think Leave would win either. That's one reason why they had no coherent plan: they never thought they'd need one. Everyone believed that Remain would win, narrowly. So May, for example, stayed out of it as far as she could, not wanting to earn enemies on the backbenches for nothing. Johnson, on the other hand, decided to campaign for Leave for the opposite reason, to build support in the party for a leadership bid. Again, it was all about internal Conservative party politicking. Yep - hence Tusk's "special place in hell" comment. With the possible exception of Gove (and possibly him too), everyone on the Leave side was just using it as a personal, grandstanding platform. And then they all quit when Leave won!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 18 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said: Remain did not put up much of a fight/persuasive argument because they did not think they needed to. This is part of it, but so is the fact that a lot of the figures in the remain side who could have countered the false leave arguments didn't do so because that would mean admitting that the problems came from them, not the EU. The fisheries being a prime example, where David Cameron would not admit that the UK has a gread deal for fishing rights but he farmed out all the permissions to big companies for money which is why the small fishermen were left with scraps. The NHS question was less specific, but similar- that the NHS being underfunded is due to government policy and not the EU taking money seems obvious, but the Tories leading the Remain charge couldn't admit that out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 1 hour ago, polishgenius said: This is part of it, but so is the fact that a lot of the figures in the remain side who could have countered the false leave arguments didn't do so because that would mean admitting that the problems came from them, not the EU. The fisheries being a prime example, where David Cameron would not admit that the UK has a gread deal for fishing rights but he farmed out all the permissions to big companies for money which is why the small fishermen were left with scraps. The NHS question was less specific, but similar- that the NHS being underfunded is due to government policy and not the EU taking money seems obvious, but the Tories leading the Remain charge couldn't admit that out loud. Yup. One of the drivers of the Leave vote was the austerity programme imposed by the coalition in 2010, which was driven by Conservative ideology. It was shocking by how many Leave voters blamed the EU and immigration rather than the government in Westminster for austerity, the loss of jobs, the mass erosion of workers' rights and the extremely sluggish recovery and they voted to leave to "stick it to the man" in an often vague and nebulous fashion. In that sense, Cameron defeated himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 So it's a 'gang of seven' this time, huh? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47278902 Quote The seven - who are calling themselves the Independent group are: Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger, Chris Leslie, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes, Gavin Shuker and Ann Coffey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, mormont said: So it's a 'gang of seven' this time, huh? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47278902 Whoa! I'm confused. Anti-Semitism has forced them to leave because the party has been hyjacked by the "far left"? Can you help a poor American understand? Is this gibberish or is the woman in question suggesting that the Labours have become fucking Stalinists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said: Whoa! I'm confused. Anti-Semitism has forced them to leave because the party has been hyjacked by the "far left"? Can you help a poor American understand? Is this gibberish or is the woman in question suggesting that the Labours have become fucking Stalinists? Yep Labour at the very least has done a very bad job of dealing with the perception that they are anti Semitic and at the worst they have some pretty anti Semitic elements within it. I think those leaving are maybe a bit more concerned by Corbyn’s economic and foreign policy, especially his Brexit stance howvever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 36 minutes ago, mormont said: So it's a 'gang of seven' this time, huh? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47278902 Who? As frustrated as I am with Corbyn, this is very disappointing. All these twats are going to do is divide the vote on the left. I honestly don't understand why they are allowed to do this without resigning their seats. I'm pretty sure most people in this country vote for the party, not the person. I know I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 SDP 2: Electric Boogaloo. Honestly, join the Liberal Democrats and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevarfeather Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 If Lib-Dems announced a coalition with these new independents and the Splitty-Tories like Anna Soubry, Grieve etc then picked a new party name, nominated a charismatic MP to lead it it would be the shake up this mess needs. Chuck Grandad Vince. Get this moving. Actually do something. Limited time to do this. But i'd join it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Nevarfeather said: If Lib-Dems announced a coalition with these new independents and the Splitty-Tories like Anna Soubry, Grieve etc then picked a new party name, nominated a charismatic MP to lead it it would be the shake up this mess needs. Chuck Grandad Vince. Get this moving. Actually do something. Limited time to do this. But i'd join it. Strangely, I don't think Anna Soubry would jump ship, as she's too committed to the Conservative Party. I'd say that Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston would be the two likeliest defectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 On 2/16/2019 at 8:12 PM, Mosi Mynn said: Yep - good idea. It seems a long time ago now - but nobody seemed to think Leave had a chance of winning. Remain did not put up much of a fight/persuasive argument because they did not think they needed to. At the time, I thought the Remain campaign was much more effective than the Leave campaign, but that proved not to be the case.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 I've just realised that my own town, Luton, no longer has a Labour MP. Both Gavin Shuker and Kelvin Hopkins are now independents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevarfeather Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 26 minutes ago, SeanF said: Strangely, I don't think Anna Soubry would jump ship, as she's too committed to the Conservative Party. I'd say that Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston would be the two likeliest defectors. good point, i kinda don't care, i just want those who really can't see their party leadership changing on both sides to break, this whole thing needs to break, the old party structures are just not working (oh and we need PR!) i'm so frustrated to be politically homeless and stuck in a first past the post system, it's the worst of all politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Honda are about to announce the closure of its Swindon manufacturing plant. 3500 jobs, not to mention the effects on the supply chain. Project Fear. ETA: It should be noted that, like Sunderland, Swindon voted overwhelmingly for the Leopards Eating People's Faces party. Om nom nom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Nevarfeather said: good point, i kinda don't care, i just want those who really can't see their party leadership changing on both sides to break, this whole thing needs to break, the old party structures are just not working (oh and we need PR!) i'm so frustrated to be politically homeless and stuck in a first past the post system, it's the worst of all politics That said, if the Labour Party does disintegrate, I expect that the Conservatives would also do so. Apart from fear of Labour, what is there to keep them together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevarfeather Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Spockydog said: Honda are about to announce the closure of its Swindon manufacturing plant. 3500 jobs, not to mention the effects on the supply chain. Project Fear. jesus, that is bad, it's just snowballing at the moment, horrific stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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