UK Politics : Groundhog May

[Nevarfeather]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That said, if the Labour Party does disintegrate, I expect that the Conservatives would also do so.  Apart from fear of Labour, what is there to keep them together?

they like power?
i don't have the parliamentary arithmetic but if Tories renouse tomorrow does that mean the Gov can no longer hold power? even with DUP they don't have enough if a handful of Tories went (much as I'd like them to)

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Nevarfeather said:

they like power?
i don't have the parliamentary arithmetic but if Tories renouse tomorrow does that mean the Gov can no longer hold power? even with DUP they don't have enough if a handful of Tories went (much as I'd like them to)

They would remain the government until they lost a vote of no confidence.  About 10 Conservatives would have to resign, and support a VONC, in order for the government to lose.

[Nevarfeather]

i hope they are all sitting calculating the risk right now, i don't want this to just be a Labour circus, both sides have to split for something to happen

[Spockydog]

It's not a split. It's a handful of MPs mostly nobody has ever heard of, throwing their toys out of the pram. They are not even registered as a political party, which, handily, allows them to conceal exactly where they get their money from. This is some shady shit.

Democracy in this country is a fucking joke.

 

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

3 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Whoa! I'm confused. Anti-Semitism has forced them to leave because the party has been hyjacked by the "far left"? 

Can you help a poor American understand?

There's always been some overlap between the far right and parts of the far left, when it comes to criticism of Israel. I give some cue words, you can fill in the narrative yourself.

Oppression of the Palestines similarities to 1930s Germany, US propping up that rogue state, state of Israel being an artificial construct forced upon the region and is the root cause for most of the regions problems. etc.

Of course, there's always a bit of misrepresentation of criticism of Israel, and right wing Israelis and sympathizers have always been very loose with the accusaiton of anti-semitism to paint any criticism of it as anti-semitism. That extends of course also to individual right wing cunts, who just happen to be Jewish, who like to call people that refer to them as cunts as anti-semites (German right wing author Henryk M. Broder comes to mind, he has really made an art form out of it; fill in American of your choice here).

However I am not familar enough to judge whether Corbyn is an anti-semite, or if he has simply been not careful enough with criticism of Israel (and its policies) and just drawn fire from the right. On the other hand, I think the anti-semitism stuff is really not what is driving this split, this is entire Corbyn's Brexit stance.

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

As frustrated as I am with Corbyn, this is very disappointing. All these twats are going to do is divide the vote on the left. I honestly don't understand why they are allowed to do this without resigning their seats. I'm pretty sure most people in this country vote for the party, not the person. I know I do.

C'mon the writing for it was on the wall for a good while. They've tried to push Corbyn's EU policy into a different direction for almost two years now (and there instances where huge parts of Labour MPs voted against the leadership). Corbyn has shown no inclination to change course and is instead sticking with McClownsky on that issue. ANd let's be real here, Brexit is the big issue here. Corbyn's Brexit letter was very likely the final straw.

But it's funny in a way, that with all the Tory infighting and insanity on display with the UK goverment, that Corbyn still managed to break the Labour party first. That is quite an achievement, it has to be said.

3 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

SDP 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Honestly, join the Liberal Democrats and be done with it. 

Ah, c'mon, Corbyn changed the political landscape, and challenged the status quo... of the Labour party as pro-European.

4 hours ago, mormont said:

So it's a 'gang of seven' this time, huh?

For now, I wouldn't be too surprised if more MPs followed. Anyway, let's see if the count stops at seven, or if the entire dam breaks.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

There's always been some overlap between the far right and parts of the far left, when it comes to criticism of Israel. I give some cue words, you can fill in the narrative yourself.

Oppression of the Palestines similarities to 1930s Germany, US propping up that rogue state, state of Israel being an artificial construct forced upon the region and is the root cause for most of the regions problems. etc.

Of course, there's always a bit of misrepresentation of criticism of Israel, and right wing Israelis and sympathizers have always been very loose with the accusaiton of anti-semitism to paint any criticism of it as anti-semitism. That extends of course also to individual right wing cunts, who just happen to be Jewish, who like to call people that refer to them as cunts as anti-semites (German right wing author Henryk M. Broder comes to mind, he has really made an art form out of it; fill in American of your choice here).

 

There has usually been very little anti-Semitism among social democrats, but it's always been rife among communists and Trotskyists.   And, quite a few of the latter have joined the Labour Party.

[mormont]

18 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

But it's funny in a way, that with all the Tory infighting and insanity on display with the UK goverment, that Corbyn still managed to break the Labour party first. That is quite an achievement, it has to be said.

Not really. Tory party unity is a notable phenomenon. The Tories aren't less divided, they're just less given to formal splits.

Which is a shame, because if the ERG nutters had just split off into their own party years ago we'd all be better off now. 

But anyway. There's plenty of blame to go around, to the splitters and to Corbyn too. This is not what we need at all. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

15 minutes ago, mormont said:

But anyway. There's plenty of blame to go around, to the splitters and to Corbyn too. This is not what we need at all. 

What has really changed with the split? Labour has (thus far) lost 7 MPs who did not agree with the Leadership's policy and were more likely to defy the whip anyway. There's no GE announced (as of now at least). 

 

50 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

It's not a split. It's a handful of MPs mostly nobody has ever heard of, throwing their toys out of the pram. They are not even registered as a political party, which, handily, allows them to conceal exactly where they get their money from. This is some shady shit.

One of the guys that split was/is Chuka Umunna. Hardly a nobody, is he? Those are the most hardcore remainers within Labour, I think. And like I said, the the writing was one the wall for quite some time.

[Spockydog]

If you showed a picture of Chuka to 100 people in the street, how many would even recognise him? Even if you told them his name they'd be all like huh, who is this guy? They're a bunch of cowardly nobodys. In a functioning democracy they'd be forced to have a by election. 

[Spockydog]

Look at the state of this. 

Quote

Angela Smith has apologised for having “misspoke” after she appeared to refer to BAME people as having a “funny tinge”.

In a discussion on the extent of racism in the UK, the MP for Penistone and Stocksbridge – who on Monday left Labour to help found the Independent Group – said society needed to address the important debate rather than run away from it.

Referencing the fact working-class women find life hard enough but that BAME working-class women face greater impediments, Smith said: “The recent history of the party I’ve just left suggests that it’s not just about being black or a funny [partially inaudible], you know, different, from the BAME community.”

Top quality parliamentarians these. She looks absolutely bewildered. Corbyn must be shitting himself.

 

 

[Heartofice]

54 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

If you showed a picture of Chuka to 100 people in the street, how many would even recognise him? Even if you told them his name they'd be all like huh, who is this guy? They're a bunch of cowardly nobodys. In a functioning democracy they'd be forced to have a by election. 

Hardly, he’s been a highly visible and outspoken guy for a long time. He’s probably more well known than most Tory and labour MPs

[Spockydog]

44 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Hardly, he’s been a highly visible and outspoken guy for a long time. He’s probably more well known than most Tory and labour MPs

Don't be ridiculous. If you're gonna do something like this, you need at least one big beast. The SDP had four. This lot have none. 

[polishgenius]

Umunna's definitely quite well known but it's 'people who follow politics somewhat' known not 'everyone knows who he is' known.

But that's the point. As the most famous face of those who've split his aim is to become much more famous and then rejoin the party and seek leadership should Corbyn leave. Though Angela Smith has done a grand job of Leadsoming any plans and ambitions any of the group may have had so far.

[HexMachina]

7 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Umunna's definitely quite well known but it's 'people who follow politics somewhat' known not 'everyone knows who he is' known.

But that's the point. As the most famous face of those who've split his aim is to become much more famous and then rejoin the party and seek leadership should Corbyn leave. Though Angela Smith has done a grand job of Leadsoming and plans and ambitions any of the group may have had so far.

I'm sort of struggling to think of many MPs who are "well known" except to those who actually follow politics somewhat. I feel like if you stopped people on the street and asked them to name MPs there'd only really be a handful of names crop up, the likes of Dianne Abbott, Kier Starmer etc. Maybe I'm misjudging how informed the general public is but I don't think so.

I agree with your point about increasing their public presence though

[Maltaran]

13 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Umunna's definitely quite well known but it's 'people who follow politics somewhat' known not 'everyone knows who he is' known.

True. As a person who follows politics somewhat, I think I'd heard of three of these before today, and for Ann Coffey that's only because she's the MP for the constitueny next door to my parents.

[Heartofice]

Very few MPs are well known to the public, and the ones they do know, you probably don’t want leading the country! 

[Heartofice]

4 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Honda are about to announce the closure of its Swindon manufacturing plant. 3500 jobs, not to mention the effects on the supply chain.

Project Fear.

ETA: It should be noted that, like Sunderland, Swindon voted overwhelmingly for the Leopards Eating People's Faces party. Om nom nom.

 

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/17441297.honda-reaction-factory-in-turkey-will-also-close-mps-say/

Quote

"Honda have been very clear – this decision has been made because of global trends and is not related to Brexit. The Turkey factory will also close as all European market production is being consolidated to Japan where the company is based.

"This consolidation is made easier by the new EU-Japan trade deal which will allow Honda to produce their cars in Japan and import them into the EU, rather than produce the cars in Europe.

So yeah... Project Fear.

[BigFatCoward]

The number of politicians who more than 1/3 of the population would recognise is probably less than 10. And some of those are only recognisable due to strictly. 

[A wilding]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/17441297.honda-reaction-factory-in-turkey-will-also-close-mps-say/

Quote

"Honda have been very clear – this decision has been made because of global trends and is not related to Brexit. The Turkey factory will also close as all European market production is being consolidated to Japan where the company is based.

"This consolidation is made easier by the new EU-Japan trade deal which will allow Honda to produce their cars in Japan and import them into the EU, rather than produce the cars in Europe.

So yeah... Project Fear.

Well, that may be the reason, but I note that the quote you provide is by the two local Tory MPs, that Turkey is not in the EU, and that Honda themselves have yet to put out a statement.

I also note a couple of other quotes from the BBC:

 

Unite union - It is because May is doing Brexit wrong:

Quote

The car industry in the UK over the last two decades has been the jewel in the crown for the manufacturing sector - and now it has been brought low by the chaotic Brexit uncertainty created by the rigid approach adopted by prime minister Theresa May.

 

Liam Fox, Tory Trade Secretary - It is because of EU red tape:

Quote

 

... pointed out that car demand had fallen since new diesel emissions rules were introduced across Europe. "That big drop in demand by consumers is bound to have a knock on effect with producers," he said.

 

 

[williamjm]

While I can understand some of their frustrations with Corbyn's lack of leadership on Brexit, I'm not really sure what they're hoping to achieve with their breakaway. I think it would have made more sense if they had launched their own party rather than forming a group of independents, it feels a bit half-hearted.