UK Politics : Groundhog May

[Spockydog]

10 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

When it is secret and they are working together? Otherwise, it's just plain bribery and propaganda.

I'm guessing you've never heard of Bilderberg.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

6 hours ago, mormont said:

What has changed? Well, for one thing, the conversation. The chat now is about these seven MPs, whether they are going to form a new party, who'll join them, what it means for Labour... meanwhile, time ticks on and May and Corbyn continue to stall over Brexit, but the spotlight on them has been removed. Indeed, Corbyn is arguably benefiting, because loyal Labour MPs with concerns about Brexit are not going to be putting pressure on him for fear of being seen as likely to leave and join the breakaway seven. 

And Terry and the Jeezer wouldn't have been stalling, but taking a hands on approach to Brexit without the seven breaking away? They've been stalling in plain sight for two years, and have continued to do so since the beginning of the year with the clock ticking down. Yes, Labour have moved a weeeeeeeee bit, but too little too late imho.

With regards to the pressure, I think the opposite might be true, I think that move might have emboldened them to put pressure on him, as in, do something or we will leave this foolship (which once ws the proud Labour party, too). So that argument cuts both ways.

16 hours ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

ERG led by the charlatan Rees-Mogg sabotaged and betrayed Cameron and have now also taken control of May and are driving us to ruin.

Is this dagger in the back thing now the rationalization of the moderate Tories of what has happened? Can we go back and re-examine what actually happened?

Cameron promised a referendum with the aim to have the electorate put a sock into those ERG clowns, because he himself lacked the spine to do so himself. And the ERG campaigned on their issue, while Cameron again lacked the spine to take them on, hoping they would just go away. I am not sure where you get the backstabbing bit in? This war him challenging them to a duel with muskets, and then yelling at them shoot me, I dare you. And they indeed did shoot him straight into the chest. No backstabbing, just horrible party management, and lack of leadership from Cameron that has lead to his demise. And I really don't get that urge to portray him in a more flattering light, as in he was being betrayed/backstabbed by the ERG. As for May, she is truely Cameron's successor in terms of political cowardice. She had decided to treat Brexit as a partisan issue and empower the ERG over Brexit instead of trying to reach a cross party consensus in parliament of what Brexit should look like. But alas, she also lacked the spine to tell the ERG off, because she feared it would break her party.

So that mess was created due to political decissions taken with a lack of leadership and courage by Cameron and May.

 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

And Terry and the Jeezer wouldn't have been stalling, but taking a hands on approach to Brexit without the seven breaking away?

I'm not sure anything in my post can reasonably be taken as inferring that, no. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

I asked what changed, you said it has taken attention away from May and Corbyn stalling. So there the seven breaking way must make a difference in some shape or form on their stalling. If nothing has really changed in that regard why bring it up?

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I asked what changed, you said it has taken attention away from May and Corbyn stalling. So there the seven breaking way must make a difference in some shape or form on their stalling. If nothing has really changed in that regard why bring it up?

It likely gives May more room for manoeuvre.   The 7 would be unlikely to back a vote of no confidence, which reduces the DUP's leverage.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Just now, SeanF said:

It likely gives May more room for manoeuvre.   The 7 would be unlikely to back a vote of no confidence, which reduces the DUP's leverage.

Not necessarily. I think they will vote with Labour on issue most of the time. And the DUP are imho not what's cuasing the real headache for May, that's the ERG. And the seven don't have the numbers (obviously) to offset those votes. But again, this is a rather academic question, as May would need to make a compromise with the opposition parties (and tell the ERG to get lost) which she's unwilling to do.

[Chaircat Meow]

Labour MP Joan Ryan also quits, citing anti-Semitism.

The Times - Exclusive: Joan Ryan is eighth Labour MP to quit, blaming ‘Corbyn culture of antisemitism’

This comes amid another Labour MP floating the idea that Israel is funding the Independent Group. 

"Ruth George, the Labour MP for High Peak, apologised yesterday after posting on social media that “support (for the independent group) from the State of Israel, which supports both Conservative and Labour Friends of Israel, of which Luciana [Berger] was chair, is possible”. She added: “I would not condemn those who suggest it, especially when the group’s financial backers are not being revealed. It is important for democracy to know the financial backers for any political group or policy.” Ms George later said that she “unreservedly and wholeheartedly” apologised for the comments and had not intended to invoke an antisemitic conspiracy theory."

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

Labour MP Joan Ryan also quits, citing anti-Semitism.

The Times - Exclusive: Joan Ryan is eighth Labour MP to quit, blaming ‘Corbyn culture of antisemitism’

This comes amid another Labour MP floating the idea that Israel is funding the Independent Group. 

"Ruth George, the Labour MP for High Peak, apologised yesterday after posting on social media that “support (for the independent group) from the State of Israel, which supports both Conservative and Labour Friends of Israel, of which Luciana [Berger] was chair, is possible”. She added: “I would not condemn those who suggest it, especially when the group’s financial backers are not being revealed. It is important for democracy to know the financial backers for any political group or policy.” Ms George later said that she “unreservedly and wholeheartedly” apologised for the comments and had not intended to invoke an antisemitic conspiracy theory."

So, neither the constituency I live in, nor the one I work in , now have Labour MP's.

[Werthead]

Meanwhile, Sajid Javid has attempted to demonstrate his dubious ability by engaging in legal and political overreach to appeal to readers of the tabloid press. He has attempted to strip a British citizen of her citizenship, rendering her stateless which is illegal under international law which the UK has agreed to. This is a rather disturbing thing for a Home Secretary to do, as it suggests that any British citizen can be made stateless at any time. Previous British legal attempts to clarify this point - which have largely been shot down - have only gone as far as suggesting that someone can be made stateless if they have engaged in actual acts of combat against British or allied forces on the battlefield, which is not the case here.

The legal case may hinge on the British government arguing that Shamima Begum could claim citizenship of Bangladesh (her mother is Bangladeshi, and Bangladesh recognises citizenship applications from direct blood relatives), but there seems to be a general feeling that this will be reaching, at best, and Javid's posturing will come to nothing.

[Rippounet]

19 minutes ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

Labour MP Joan Ryan also quits, citing anti-Semitism.

The Times - Exclusive: Joan Ryan is eighth Labour MP to quit, blaming ‘Corbyn culture of antisemitism’

This comes amid another Labour MP floating the idea that Israel is funding the Independent Group. 

"Ruth George, the Labour MP for High Peak, apologised yesterday after posting on social media that “support (for the independent group) from the State of Israel, which supports both Conservative and Labour Friends of Israel, of which Luciana [Berger] was chair, is possible”. She added: “I would not condemn those who suggest it, especially when the group’s financial backers are not being revealed. It is important for democracy to know the financial backers for any political group or policy.” Ms George later said that she “unreservedly and wholeheartedly” apologised for the comments and had not intended to invoke an antisemitic conspiracy theory."

Hmmm, can't resist.

So MPs quit because of Corbyn's supposed antisemitism, and when another MP basically suggests that they may be supported by Israel she has to apologize for an "antisemitic conspiracy theory" ?

On the face of it that's putting the bar for antisemitism a bit low methinks.

Since I don't know much about this Labour Party stuff, I looked at this article by the BBC:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45030552

One sentence stood out for me:

Quote

Some say "Zionist" can be used as a coded attack on Jewish people, while others say the Israeli government and its supporters are deliberately confusing anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism to avoid criticism.

These two statements are absolutely not mutually exclusive. I'll daresay both are actually true.

[SeanF]

38 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Meanwhile, Sajid Javid has attempted to demonstrate his dubious ability by engaging in legal and political overreach to appeal to readers of the tabloid press. He has attempted to strip a British citizen of her citizenship, rendering her stateless which is illegal under international law which the UK has agreed to. This is a rather disturbing thing for a Home Secretary to do, as it suggests that any British citizen can be made stateless at any time. Previous British legal attempts to clarify this point - which have largely been shot down - have only gone as far as suggesting that someone can be made stateless if they have engaged in actual acts of combat against British or allied forces on the battlefield, which is not the case here.

The legal case may hinge on the British government arguing that Shamima Begum could claim citizenship of Bangladesh (her mother is Bangladeshi, and Bangladesh recognises citizenship applications from direct blood relatives), but there seems to be a general feeling that this will be reaching, at best, and Javid's posturing will come to nothing.

The case will turn on whether she is a dual national/entitled to dual nationality.  Hundreds of dual nationals have had their British citizenship revoked by Home Secretaries over the past 15 years.

[The Anti-Targ]

1 hour ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

Labour MP Joan Ryan also quits, citing anti-Semitism.

The Times - Exclusive: Joan Ryan is eighth Labour MP to quit, blaming ‘Corbyn culture of antisemitism’

This comes amid another Labour MP floating the idea that Israel is funding the Independent Group. 

"Ruth George, the Labour MP for High Peak, apologised yesterday after posting on social media that “support (for the independent group) from the State of Israel, which supports both Conservative and Labour Friends of Israel, of which Luciana [Berger] was chair, is possible”. She added: “I would not condemn those who suggest it, especially when the group’s financial backers are not being revealed. It is important for democracy to know the financial backers for any political group or policy.” Ms George later said that she “unreservedly and wholeheartedly” apologised for the comments and had not intended to invoke an antisemitic conspiracy theory."

How in the world is suggesting Israel is supporting a group of pro-Israel MPs an anti-semitic conspiracy theory?

Even if this alleged support doesn't exist, it's still not an anti-semitic conspiracy theory. It's not exactly a far left field notion that a country might support politicians who are apologetically supportive of the country. Israel is not Judaism, and Judaism is not Israel.

Israel benefits by having every negative thing said about it being called anti-semitism. It's not a good situation if politicians in other countries seem to be facilitating that outcome.

[Fez]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

How in the world is suggesting Israel is supporting a group of pro-Israel MPs an anti-semitic conspiracy theory?

Even if this alleged support doesn't exist, it's still not an anti-semitic conspiracy theory. It's not exactly a far left field notion that a country might support politicians who are apologetically supportive of the country. Israel is not Judaism, and Judaism is not Israel.

Israel benefits by having every negative thing said about it being called anti-semitism. It's not a good situation if politicians in other countries seem to be facilitating that outcome.

Because if there's no evidence of it than all it does is play into the long-running stereotype of Jews running the world in secret. This never happens with other countries, it's only Israel that constantly deal with unfounded accusations about improper influence. Israel does step over the line sometimes (especially in the US) and when it does, it's called out on it; the same as other countries are when they overstep. But other countries are not attacked by rumors when they aren't doing anything; only Israel is.

And with France reporting a 74% rise in anti-Semitic violence last year, Germany a reporting a 60% increase, and the US reporting a 57% increase for 2017, people are more on edge about this sort of thing.

[The Anti-Targ]

20 minutes ago, Fez said:

Because if there's no evidence of it than all it does is play into the long-running stereotype of Jews running the world in secret. This never happens with other countries, it's only Israel that constantly deal with unfounded accusations about improper influence. Israel does step over the line sometimes (especially in the US) and when it does, it's called out on it; the same as other countries are when they overstep. But other countries are not attacked by rumors when they aren't doing anything; only Israel is.

 

Agree it feeds into it. But that doesn't mean it's actually part of it. People wanting to be able to criticise Israel need to be careful with their words, and make sure they have some evidence for what they say. But condemning poorly conceived statements as anti-semitism also helps to stifle legitimate criticism because the fear is you will be labelled as an anti-semite.

Does Israel get called on their shit? I would argue that they don't get called on their shit anywhere near as much as they should. If they did then we'd probably have a two-state solution already concluded several years ago.

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

I suspect Blair is partly brhjnd the IG. He did moot a new centre groubd party a while ago

[SeanF]

It looks like Wollaston, Soubry, and Allen will jump ship today from the Conservatives

[mormont]

15 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I asked what changed, you said it has taken attention away from May and Corbyn stalling. So there the seven breaking way must make a difference in some shape or form on their stalling. If nothing has really changed in that regard why bring it up?

I'm sorry, but this seems rather obtuse. I said that the split had distracted attention from May and Corbyn stalling, yes, and that attention was and is the only way to put pressure on them, so that pressure has been removed. That is not to say that they would otherwise have stopped. Just that the pressure to do so would have remained. I know you can see the difference between that, and your characterisation of my post. 

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

It likely gives May more room for manoeuvre.   The 7 would be unlikely to back a vote of no confidence, which reduces the DUP's leverage.

Why on earth would you think the 7 wouldn't back a vote of no confidence? They clearly don't have any more confidence in May today than they did a few weeks ago. Having left the Labour party because it wasn't opposing Brexit, they hardly have an interest in propping up a government that's fixated on delivering Brexit at all costs.

8 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

How in the world is suggesting Israel is supporting a group of pro-Israel MPs an anti-semitic conspiracy theory?

How is suggesting, on the basis of no evidence, shadowy Jewish funding influencing the politics of another country 'an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory'? 

It's a mystery, that one. 

6 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Agree it feeds into it. But that doesn't mean it's actually part of it.

That's a fine line you're trying to draw, and I'm not at all sure you've drawn it. 

10 hours ago, Werthead said:

Meanwhile, Sajid Javid has attempted to demonstrate his dubious ability by engaging in legal and political overreach to appeal to readers of the tabloid press. He has attempted to strip a British citizen of her citizenship, rendering her stateless which is illegal under international law which the UK has agreed to. This is a rather disturbing thing for a Home Secretary to do, as it suggests that any British citizen can be made stateless at any time. Previous British legal attempts to clarify this point - which have largely been shot down - have only gone as far as suggesting that someone can be made stateless if they have engaged in actual acts of combat against British or allied forces on the battlefield, which is not the case here.

The legal case may hinge on the British government arguing that Shamima Begum could claim citizenship of Bangladesh (her mother is Bangladeshi, and Bangladesh recognises citizenship applications from direct blood relatives), but there seems to be a general feeling that this will be reaching, at best, and Javid's posturing will come to nothing.

Javid is likely expecting the courts to overturn the decision on appeal, but then he can hold up his hands and say 'I tried, those liberal judges, pesky international law, what can you do?' and the Mail and the Express will still love him. It's a no-lose for him politically. He gets to prove how tough he is by using the power of the state to bully a teenage girl, the tabloids get to have their frankly racist take on the situation validated by a senior politician, everyone's happy. Except the girl and her child and her family, but who gives a shit about them? Self-evidently, not the British government. 

[Gorn]

While I have often been critical of Israel and its policies myself, I have nothing but utter disdain for anyone who calls themselves an "anti-Zionist". Anti-Zionism may have been a valid political stance before 1948, but today it simply means that they want to destroy a real, existing state with 9 million people living in it.

Someone saying "I'm not an anti-Semite, I'm an anti-Zionist" basically means "I don't want genocide for all the Jews, just the ones living in Israel".

[Nevarfeather]

Seems to me the sad story about a young woman Shemima Begum being radicalised in the UK, travelling to Syria and having children and now wanting to return has nothing to do with her really and everything to do with Sajid Javid wanting to be Prime Minister

 

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, Gorn said:

While I have often been critical of Israel and its policies myself, I have nothing but utter disdain for anyone who calls themselves an "anti-Zionist". Anti-Zionism may have been a valid political stance before 1948, but today it simply means that they want to destroy a real, existing state with 9 million people living in it.

Someone saying "I'm not an anti-Semite, I'm an anti-Zionist" basically means "I don't want genocide for all the Jews, just the ones living in Israel".

What we need is a word for people who really don't give two shits what religion someone is, who would like all nations to behave like responsible, law-abiding members of the international community and not subject their neighbours to a barbaric system of Apartheid, whilst gradually, and illegally, stealing the land from out beneath them.