SeanF Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, mormont said: Why on earth would you think the 7 wouldn't back a vote of no confidence? They clearly don't have any more confidence in May today than they did a few weeks ago. Having left the Labour party because it wasn't opposing Brexit, they hardly have an interest in propping up a government that's fixated on delivering Brexit at all costs. They don't. But, they don't want Corbyn as PM, or an early general election, in which they'd be likely to lose their seats. That's why I think they'd abstain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 hours ago, SeanF said: It looks like Wollaston, Soubry, and Allen will jump ship today from the Conservatives Yep, they've gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 This is spot on. The ONLY MP who has committed to any kind of People's Vote is Corbyn. These guys are using Brexit as a smokescreen for their ideological differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 This. So much this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 9 hours ago, Fez said: Because if there's no evidence of it than all it does is play into the long-running stereotype of Jews running the world in secret. This never happens with other countries, it's only Israel that constantly deal with unfounded accusations about improper influence. Israel does step over the line sometimes (especially in the US) and when it does, it's called out on it; the same as other countries are when they overstep. But other countries are not attacked by rumors when they aren't doing anything; only Israel is. And with France reporting a 74% rise in anti-Semitic violence last year, Germany a reporting a 60% increase, and the US reporting a 57% increase for 2017, people are more on edge about this sort of thing. Yeah... Except very few countries try to maximize their influence like Israel does. And no, not "especially in the US" but throughout the West. And no, it generally *doesn't* get called out on it. Quite often because it channels funds through foreign citizens who of course are Jewish, hence making this an "Israeli-Jewish conspiracy" and that anyone exposing it would instantly be cast (and sound) anti-semitic. It's very obvious that MPs supported by Israel or Israeli-funded organizations will go after Corbyn and one should take accusations of anti-semitism with quite a bit of salt. If you have a group called "Labour Friends of Israel" it's only natural to wonder what that group is about exactly. And if anyone from that group seems to go after their party leader, it's not unreasonable to wonder why and how exactly. The mistake Ruth George made was to make her suppositions public. You DO NOT do that. You just can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 13 hours ago, Werthead said: Meanwhile, Sajid Javid has attempted to demonstrate his dubious ability by engaging in legal and political overreach to appeal to readers of the tabloid press. He has attempted to strip a British citizen of her citizenship, rendering her stateless which is illegal under international law which the UK has agreed to. He really is the worst. Horrible little man. He needs to be challenged on this. Today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen'ari Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 13 hours ago, Werthead said: Meanwhile, Sajid Javid has attempted to demonstrate his dubious ability by engaging in legal and political overreach to appeal to readers of the tabloid press. He has attempted to strip a British citizen of her citizenship, rendering her stateless which is illegal under international law which the UK has agreed to. This is a rather disturbing thing for a Home Secretary to do, as it suggests that any British citizen can be made stateless at any time. Previous British legal attempts to clarify this point - which have largely been shot down - have only gone as far as suggesting that someone can be made stateless if they have engaged in actual acts of combat against British or allied forces on the battlefield, which is not the case here. The legal case may hinge on the British government arguing that Shamima Begum could claim citizenship of Bangladesh (her mother is Bangladeshi, and Bangladesh recognises citizenship applications from direct blood relatives), but there seems to be a general feeling that this will be reaching, at best, and Javid's posturing will come to nothing. Personally, while I have no problem with her not coming back to the UK, legally he’s on very unsteady ground with this, that she could claim Bangladeshi citizenship in the future doesn’t mean he can strip her of her UK citizenship before she has done and I think he will come unstuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, SeanF said: They don't. But, they don't want Corbyn as PM, or an early general election, in which they'd be likely to lose their seats. That's why I think they'd abstain. That's... tenuous, to be generous. The (now) eleven have to fight an election for their seats at some point, so the argument that they'd prop up a government that is hell-bent on an outcome they oppose in order to delay that is weak sauce. No, they don't want Corbyn as PM, but refusing to support a no-confidence will do little to affect that outcome, while ushering in a worse one. I would say there's slim to no chance that these eleven wouldn't support a vote of no confidence. 37 minutes ago, Spockydog said: The ONLY MP who has committed to any kind of People's Vote is Corbyn. Are you sure about that claim? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Nevarfeather said: Seems to me the sad story about a young woman Shemima Begum being radicalised in the UK, travelling to Syria and having children and now wanting to return has nothing to do with her really and everything to do with Sajid Javid wanting to be Prime Minister Yeah Javid has little ground to stand on when trying to revoke her status as a British citizen, as she doesn’t currently have a second nationality as far as I’m aware. She says she will try and get Dutch nationality off her husband but who knows. it is a sad story, though she has yet to show any sort of remorse for her actions from what I’ve seen she still holds most of the views that led her to joining ISIS in the first place. I doubt she will live a comfortable life in the UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 16 minutes ago, mormont said: That's... tenuous, to be generous. The (now) eleven have to fight an election for their seats at some point, so the argument that they'd prop up a government that is hell-bent on an outcome they oppose in order to delay that is weak sauce. No, they don't want Corbyn as PM, but refusing to support a no-confidence will do little to affect that outcome, while ushering in a worse one. I would say there's slim to no chance that these eleven wouldn't support a vote of no confidence. Are you sure about that claim? Really? They'd surely regard Brexit plus Corbyn as a worse outcome than Brexit plus the current government? And, they would need time to build up some organisation in their constituencies, before fighting an election. Edit: The three ex-Conservatives have said they would not vote against the government in a VONC (although they could easily abstain). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 14 minutes ago, Bittersweet Distractor said: Personally, while I have no problem with her not coming back to the UK, legally he’s on very unsteady ground with this, that she could claim Bangladeshi citizenship in the future doesn’t mean he can strip her of her UK citizenship before she has done and I think he will come unstuck. I think it's very hard to predict how the Courts will rule on this case, and we may see different Courts making different rulings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 40 minutes ago, mormont said: Are you sure about that claim? Really? He tabled an amendment on the 29th of January which would have allowed a people's vote on May's deal, which was voted down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, Spockydog said: He tabled an amendment on the 29th of January which would have allowed a people's vote on May's deal, which was voted down. And that makes him the one and only MP in the House of Commons who is 'committed to any kind of people's vote'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, mormont said: And that makes him the one and only MP in the House of Commons who is 'committed to any kind of people's vote'? Well, perhaps not. But. afaik, he's the only one who's actually tried to put something into statute. ETA; And while a lot of MPs say they are committed to a People's Vote, Corbyn is the only one who has committed, by way of his 29th Jan amendment. As far as I can tell, there have been a number of 'No Deal' related amendments, but Corbyn's is the only one to call for a second vote. So, yes, unless I'm wrong about the above, Corbyn most definitely is the only MP to have committed to a People's Vote. I eagerly await your ruling on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Mmm. Corbyn's amendment can be said to have 'called for a people's vote', yes... in that it listed such a vote among the measures that should be polled for support in a series of indicative votes by MPs. It was also understood at the time as a political step to keep some of his MPs quiet, rather than a personal endorsement of the idea. Meanwhile, numerous MPs have publicly committed to the idea, and other parties explicitly have it as party policy. So my ruling is that if you want to claim that 'the only MP who has committed to any kind of people's vote is Corbyn', you're engaging in sophistry at best. To make it true you have to define your terms in such a way as to rob it of any real meaning. ETA - also, can Labour people stop pretending they really want to fight eight simultaneous by-elections right now? Because they don't. Not if they have a gram of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, mormont said: Meanwhile, numerous MPs have publicly committed to the idea, and other parties explicitly have it as party policy. It's been nearly three years. Who has tabled any legislation? And by other parties, you mean the Lib Dems and the Greens. Anything these parties propose is so inconsequential, they may as well not even exist. Look, I'm no fan of Corbyn's Brexit policy. But the splitters are so disingenuous it makes me want to vomit. For years, Chuka has been sucking the cock of big business. He is splitting because he is ideologically against Corbyn's policies, policies that favour the public over the people he's in thrall to. And don't get me started on the Tories they are sharing a platform with. I saw someone describe Soubry as an 'austerity ghoul', and she's basically confirmed that, today, she'd do it all again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevarfeather Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 i don't know where this new Independent Group is going but they are already bigger than the Lib Dems and the DUP, if they do nothing but shake the 2 parties eating themselves alive up, then good for them, seems to me there is no such thing as a perfect politician, but they all put country before party on quitting and each speech and letter in the last 2 days has been remarkable in it's openness and integrity, i've forgotten what it is for a British politician to speak like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 37 minutes ago, Spockydog said: It's been nearly three years. Who has tabled any legislation? OK. See above. 37 minutes ago, Spockydog said: And by other parties, you mean the Lib Dems and the Greens. Anything these parties propose is so inconsequential, they may as well not even exist. And the SNP. But yeah. You've convinced me. Having a party policy in favour of a people's vote is meaningless and the only thing that counts is putting down an actual amendment, regardless of the contents of that amendment or your motives for putting it down. Jeremy Corbyn is not only the only MP, but in fact the only actual person anywhere in the UK who supports a people's vote. 37 minutes ago, Spockydog said: But the splitters are so disingenuous it makes me want to vomit. This would carry more weight if it were not preceded by such a disingenuous argument from yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 6 hours ago, mormont said: I'm sorry, but this seems rather obtuse. I said that the split had distracted attention from May and Corbyn stalling, yes, and that attention was and is the only way to put pressure on them, so that pressure has been removed. That is not to say that they would otherwise have stopped. Just that the pressure to do so would have remained. I know you can see the difference between that, and your characterisation of my post. Yes, but both Corbyn and May have happily ignored that pressure. May for party political reasons, and Corbyn because, well, what will you do about it vote Tory? 4 hours ago, Spockydog said: This is spot on. The ONLY MP who has committed to any kind of People's Vote is Corbyn. Are we talking about what happened on planet Earth in an observable reality, because this doesn't feel like it. I mean we are still talking about Corbyn, whose very supporters have fudged a more binding resolution wrt to a second referendum, as it would embarass the leadership? The one whose preference is still a better BRexit negotiated by himself? That Jeremy Corbyn? I just want to make sure, that I am not stranded in some mirror universe. TBF this is just the second most ridiculous claim I've read in here recently... (the cake still goes to the ERG backstabbing Cameron). 1 hour ago, Spockydog said: For years, Chuka has been sucking the cock of big business. He is splitting because he is ideologically against Corbyn's policies, policies that favour the public over the people he's in thrall to. Look up his voting record instead of listening to whatever momentum is pulling out of a cavity of their choice. If they are to be believed I expect him to grow horns and vanish in a cloud of sulfur. Did he more or less consistently vote for or against the following? Raising benefits at least in line with prices Reduction of corporate tax rates Reduction in capital gains tax Increase in income tax for incomes of 150k Bankers Bonus tax Corbyn's pet project of publicly owned railway system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncalagonTheBlack Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Speaking as a non Brit,this whole Brexit thing has been like some alternate history fiction,except that it's real.Maybe someone could write a book? So i was reading the wiki entry for the latest Labour exit: MP Joan Ryan and from what i read she seems extremely dodgy. Quote She lost her seat in the 2010 general election after an expenses scandal The Independent reported in March 2012 that "at least 10 attempts" were made from computers on the Parliamentary estate to remove information about Ryan's expenses from her Wikipedia article. A further 20 attempts were made from inside her former constituency of Enfield North. In August 2015, Ryan became Chair of the Labour Friends of Israel. In 2016, Ryan was secretly filmed discussing receipt of a payment of £1,000,000 from Shai Masot, Senior Political Officer at the Israeli Embassy in London On 6 September 2018, her Constituency Labour Party passed a motion of no confidence in her. It accused her of acting like an “independent MP in all but name”, of making false accusations of anti-Semitism, and of fuelling a “trial by media” by smearing Jeremy Corbyn.Ryan blamed her defeat on 'Trots, Stalinists and communists' whom she said had entered the Enfield North Labour Party, and said "Just to be clear I will not be resigning. I am Labour through and through and I will continue to stand up and fight for Labour values." This secretly filmed video, from the Al Jazeera Investigations series "The Lobby," shows Shai Masot, an officer at the Israeli embassy in London, discussing plans to "take down" members of the British parliament, including a government minister.The Joan Ryan bit starts at 2:56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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