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George hates hero worship


Wm Portnoy

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On 2/6/2019 at 6:18 PM, Wolf's Bane said:

I agree with most of what the thread author is saying but we need to look beyond heroes and anti-heroes.  What the book portrays is reality.  Things go wrong because humans make decisions with their emotions.  It's fact.  It does appear bleak but that's reality for you.  Take Catelyn for our example.  She's a caring woman who appear to have decency and yet she kidnaps Tyrion to get justice for her son.  One son against the deaths of many innocent and uninvolved people because she knew how Tywin would respond.   Catelyn is not a good leader but she is a decent mother.  We need to take the person's role into account.  A lady should consider the needs of the smallfolk who support her house.  Catelyn didn't because she's thinking like a mother.  She should not be in a position to lead.  

Human nature is the true enemy.  There is always that internal conflict between what one ought to do versus what one desires to do.  George Martin's characters always seem to follow their hearts and that leads to bad things happening to a lot of innocent people.  Lyanna, Jaime, Catelyn, Jon, and Renly gave in to their heart's wishes and it hurt a lot of innocent people.  It's not only the bad people who cause damage but those who for some reason acted selfishly.  

On 2/9/2019 at 11:53 AM, Annalee said:

George is not pro villain, anti hero.  What he doesn't like is the herd mentality.  Just because something or someone is popular doesn't make their actions correct.  Liking a person is not the same as that person being actually good.  Furthermore, being good and being popular does not mean that person will benefit the greater good.  A lot of people in this forum like Arya Stark.  Which I don't understand but so be it.  Just because they like Arya doesn't mean Arya is a hero.  Being bad does not exclude someone from a lot of fan favorite list.   Arya is an extremely damaged person who does very bad things.  She does more harm than good.  She's an antagonists to the greater good. 

George swims against the current of popularity.  The Hbo show takes a populists approach but George is not like them.  He wants to be different and that means going against what or who are the popular fan choices.  The least popular characters might surprise us and do something heroic to redeem themselves in a George Martin way.  So there.  It is fair to accuse George of being anti-populists but he is not pro-villain. 

George wants to break trope.  I get that.  HBO is a different animal.  I stopped watching the show.  I no longer subscribe to hbo.  

On 2/18/2019 at 5:46 AM, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

I just think that in myths, legends and history our heroes are very often highly flawed people who are products of their times, from Beowulf to Achilles and Hercules, these shining sword carrying people of legends were often bastards in their own right. Anyone who can take a sword and hack another man to bits has done things they aren’t, or perhaps are proud of. There are varying degrees of this, but that’s just how it is

And this is where the cynicism comes from.  Life will not get better because human nature stays the same.

On 3/22/2019 at 9:57 AM, Victor Newman said:

The novel has a tone of hopelessness to it.  Comedy is very few and very far in between.  It has more darkness than light.  I keep reading and hoping for more light but I may get disappointed.  George Martin loves to disappoint.  Just remember what happened to Oberyn versus Gregor.  

I don't know if the story reflects George Martin's outlook on life.  Was George a fan of somebody who later did something bad to disappoint him?  Clinton?  Some football star on his favorite team.  

There are strong elements of hopelessness in the pages for sure.  George crafted a novel that doesn't have a happy tone to it.  He wants his readers to feel the despair.  Authors want to tug at the reader's emotions.  I guess George wants to bring sadness and melancholy to the reader instead of short-lived elation.  He wants to encourage discussion and he will leave a lot of plot arcs open-ended.  

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George wants you to worship your hero and then he makes them do something bad to shake your faith.  He wants you to choose a character to worship and then he either kills that person or writes them to do something very questionable.  It's all in the service of telling a story.  He's willing to destroy his favorite, and yours, characters if he believes it makes for a more compelling story.  The area for debate is whether the character was justified in what they did and whether it made for a better story.  

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On 2/4/2019 at 6:23 PM, Wm Portnoy said:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152232-does-grrm-hate-heroism-or-avoid-it-jon-and-quentyn-comparison/&page=3&tab=comments#comment-828082

Our author doesn't hate heroes.  He hates hero worship.  A cynical person is not going to have many people, if any, that they look up to as heroes.  George wants to pass on some of that cynicism to his readers.  He likes grey characters and writes true to form.  Most of the first-tier characters are grey.  Tyrion, Daenerys, Bran, and Jon are all grey.  Arya is black.  Even non-major grey characters have deep backstories.  Theon, Jorah, Sandor, Jamie are such.   All of us on this forum are guilty of hero worship and villain hating.  George is contrary and I will not put it past him to kill off a character if that person is getting 80% fan approval.  It means that's a forgettable character.  George likes controversial characters.  So don't be surprised if someone dull and uncontroversial such as Brienne is killed off in Winds.  

 

 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153126-is-death-good-why-fight-the-others/

The author obviously wants us to be aware of the fragility of life.  I don't think we should think of either as good or bad.  It is what it is.  The best we can do, the best any character inside the story can do, is to make good use of the life they have.  Spend it well and enjoy it.  

Don't be surprised if someone uncontroversial and who lacks a strong fan base, such as Brienne, to become the lone survivor in the end.  

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On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 9:04 PM, Eddard Waters said:

How is Arya morally black?

Arya is evil for the only reason that anyone is evil:  Because she does evil things.  Which does not necessarily make her irredeemable.  The story is ongoing.

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She's certainly a morally grey character, but she hasn't gone completely off the moral deepened like Ramsay, Roose, Euron, Gregor, Tywin, Cersei and Tyrion have.

Most of these are cartoon villains.  They represent the sort of "evil" that does not really exist among still-living mortals.  The last two, who are slightly less cartoonish in their villainy, have their defenders and sympathizers.  But again, they are evil for the same reason that anyone is evil:  because they do evil things.

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Hell, Daenerys has done far worse things then anything Arya has done. (not that I'm implying Daenerys is evil).

Okay, if you won't imply it, I will.  Dany is evil, because she does evil things.  And again, that does not necessarily make her irredeemable.  The story is ongoing.

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Arya is a traumatized 11 year old who has had her entire life ruined do to circumstances completely outside of her control, has witness mass war crimes, has been forced into a enemy work camp, has been repeatedly beaten and threatened with rape, and has practically had her family murdered in front of her.

Well, that's terrible.  However, objectively, her behavior is evil.  But, she's so traumatized, maybe she can't help it?  Yeah, maybe, maybe.  And maybe Gregor can't help it either.  Those damned headaches make him be evil.  And maybe Roose can't help it either.  Maybe Satan, or Rh'llor, or the Great Other, has him by the balls, so that he has no choice but to do the evil things that he does.

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Her life is so horrible, that she thinks the only place where she can be safe is with the local death cultists. 

She crossed an ocean to be with those death cultists.  And I don't she chose it merely as a place of safety.

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And yet she is incapable of abandoning who she is, her inability to bring herself to destroy Needle and the Wolf Dreams are testament to that. 

So, on the one hand, she's evil.  But on the other hand ….. she's still evil.   

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Arya Stark is not a spree killer, she is a vigilante. Less Michael Myers and more Punisher. 

Michael Myers was a demon incarnate.  If that's your standard for "evil", it is rather high.  I never read the Punisher.

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Arya is a morally complex character, and has done some questionable things, but she isn't evil. 

You just don't like the word "evil" to be applied to a character that is any way sympathetic. 

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Hero depends on how the individual reader sees it.  They're a hero if they do something solid for the people whom the reader likes and villains if they hurt the reader's favorite characters.  

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10 hours ago, Steelborn said:

What is so grey about Jon? He's the closest to a Mary Sue we've ever had in the whole series, even "bad" things he has done like having sex as a Night Watcher were in the name of love or something.

He killed Slynt for a minor offense to avenge his family.  He put the watch in danger just to help his sister.  He assaulted Ser Aliser.  He  deserted the watch intending to help Robb.

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On 4/21/2019 at 12:31 PM, shameeka said:

I think he's trying to portray that, as he said "All of the greatest heroes have flaws and all of the greatest villains have moments of humanity or redeeming qualities."

Hero is a point of view.

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On 2/4/2019 at 6:23 PM, Wm Portnoy said:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152232-does-grrm-hate-heroism-or-avoid-it-jon-and-quentyn-comparison/&page=3&tab=comments#comment-828082

Our author doesn't hate heroes.  He hates hero worship.  A cynical person is not going to have many people, if any, that they look up to as heroes.  George wants to pass on some of that cynicism to his readers.  He likes grey characters and writes true to form.  Most of the first-tier characters are grey.  Tyrion, Daenerys, Bran, and Jon are all grey.  Arya is black.  Even non-major grey characters have deep backstories.  Theon, Jorah, Sandor, Jamie are such.   All of us on this forum are guilty of hero worship and villain hating.  George is contrary and I will not put it past him to kill off a character if that person is getting 80% fan approval.  It means that's a forgettable character.  George likes controversial characters.  So don't be surprised if someone dull and uncontroversial such as Brienne is killed off in Winds.  

 

 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153126-is-death-good-why-fight-the-others/

The author obviously wants us to be aware of the fragility of life.  I don't think we should think of either as good or bad.  It is what it is.  The best we can do, the best any character inside the story can do, is to make good use of the life they have.  Spend it well and enjoy it.  

I think we all like grey characters, that's why we all like these books. I also think it's sort of the "moral" to the story if there is one - almost everyone has shades of grey (mixtures of black & white) in them. 

I am pretty curious, like some of the other posters, as to how you can consider Arya "black"? Especially when some characters (Dany, Tyrion) who have done worse things you count as grey. On the other end of the spectrum I don't see Bran as very grey - at least not yet. He is fairly white imo. 

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On 2/5/2019 at 12:23 AM, Wm Portnoy said:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152232-does-grrm-hate-heroism-or-avoid-it-jon-and-quentyn-comparison/&page=3&tab=comments#comment-828082

Our author doesn't hate heroes.  He hates hero worship.  A cynical person is not going to have many people, if any, that they look up to as heroes.  George wants to pass on some of that cynicism to his readers.  He likes grey characters and writes true to form.  Most of the first-tier characters are grey.  Tyrion, Daenerys, Bran, and Jon are all grey.  Arya is black.  Even non-major grey characters have deep backstories.  Theon, Jorah, Sandor, Jamie are such.   All of us on this forum are guilty of hero worship and villain hating.  George is contrary and I will not put it past him to kill off a character if that person is getting 80% fan approval.  It means that's a forgettable character.  George likes controversial characters.  So don't be surprised if someone dull and uncontroversial such as Brienne is killed off in Winds.  

 

 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153126-is-death-good-why-fight-the-others/

The author obviously wants us to be aware of the fragility of life.  I don't think we should think of either as good or bad.  It is what it is.  The best we can do, the best any character inside the story can do, is to make good use of the life they have.  Spend it well and enjoy it.  

 

George kind of doesn’t kill off that many characters. Relative to the size of the book and who the core POV are it’s about what you might expect. It’s just that he creates doubt and tension.

Jons not a grey character. He swaps a baby because for some reason he’s worried that Melisandre shedding Kings Blood will bring the Doom or some random nonsense. Apart from that he’s Uber Man who has everything handed to him on a platter and is presented with very clear situations. Put him in Theons  or Jamie’s shoes and the boy would have cracked. 

As for the point about Hero Worship. I think what George admires, Jon is a perfect example of this, is humility. He makes a huge deal about Jon learning to tone down his ego and work with his fellow watchman in book 1. That later on everybody thinks he’s Uberman doesn’t matter. So he’s not really against Hero Worship. It’s the whole idea of hubris and how that can cloud your judgement.

Personally I think it’s a worthless character trait and George doesn’t seriously consider the flip side of how lacking that self confidence could be crippling for a potential leader. If you’re plagued by self doubt and criticising yourself all the time it can be worse than just bull rushing into something because of your own hubris. There is a big difference between being thoughtful and indecisive. 

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I think small gestures, not grand ones, are portrayed in a good light. I dont need characters to be larger than life prophectic heroes to feel satisfied. I also think Dany is better off being a small scale ruler, like mayor of a city. I am happy if Jon's story ends with him acting like a fierce protector for his family, replacing Cat's role. Arya can continue to save little kids trapped in fires.  

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On 4/19/2019 at 10:19 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

Human nature is the true enemy.  There is always that internal conflict between what one ought to do versus what one desires to do.  George Martin's characters always seem to follow their hearts and that leads to bad things happening to a lot of innocent people.  Lyanna, Jaime, Catelyn, Jon, and Renly gave in to their heart's wishes and it hurt a lot of innocent people.  It's not only the bad people who cause damage but those who for some reason acted selfishly.  

:agree:  Human flaws make the future rather bleak.  There is a chance to make it all better but as the man himself said, "utopia will never ensue" it must be fought for.  As long as there are people willing to fight the good fight, hope is not lost.

On 4/22/2019 at 10:20 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

He killed Slynt for a minor offense to avenge his family.  He put the watch in danger just to help his sister.  He assaulted Ser Aliser.  He  deserted the watch intending to help Robb.

Jon is not suited for leadership.  His primitive nature make him more suitable to live as a Wildling.

On 9/20/2019 at 6:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

George kind of doesn’t kill off that many characters. Relative to the size of the book and who the core POV are it’s about what you might expect. It’s just that he creates doubt and tension.

Many characters will die in the next book.  You can count on it.  Winter is the killer.

 

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On 4/22/2019 at 10:20 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

He killed Slynt for a minor offense to avenge his family.  He put the watch in danger just to help his sister.  He assaulted Ser Aliser.  He  deserted the watch intending to help Robb.

 

Jon tolerated Slynt as a member of the Night's Watch until Slynt refused to obey the Lord Commander (Jon)'s direct order.  Even then, Jon repeated the order, in effect a second chance; and Slynt still refused.  The Night's Watch is a military organization and a Commander whose orders are not obeyed will not be able to command, and the structure of the organization could unravel.  Jon was fully justified in taking Slynt's head.

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On 2/5/2019 at 7:09 PM, zandru said:

Maybe you need to read the books a little more closely. "Black" Arya still needs many updates from the Kindly Man on why the insurance fraudster is on the House of Black&White's hit list, before she settles in her mind that she will kill him, as ordered. (Even though it seems most readers truly love the insurer who doesn't pay his claims - I'm assuming they (or their parents) have never had a claim unfairly denied...)

Arya's kills are mainly to protect or avenge her friends, not for kicks like Ramsey Snow or Gregor Clegane or Mad King Joffrey. Of all the people Arya kills in Westeros, she continues to feel guilt long after and believes her mother would disapprove. This isn't the mark of a "black" character.

Arya enjoys killing. Like she gets a physical thrill out of it. Her primary reactions to some of her more gruesome kills consists of sheer glee.

I'm with @Platypus Rex on this one. Just because a character is sympathetic or even heroic, it doesn't mean that that character is not evil or that they are incapable of doing evil things. That's what the definition of an anti-hero is: a hero who has evil (re: villainous) tendencies, motives or methods.

Eddard Stark technically did two evil things: neglecting to properly deal with Cersei and repeatedly refusing to tell Robert Baratheon the truth...well the truth as it pertains to the Lannisters, Bran and Littlefinger.

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On 4/22/2019 at 10:20 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

He killed Slynt for a minor offense to avenge his family.  He put the watch in danger just to help his sister.  He assaulted Ser Aliser.  He  deserted the watch intending to help Robb.

Stop it. Slynt did not commit a minor offense and it had nothing to do with his family.

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Just now, Jabar of House Titan said:

Arya enjoys killing. Like she gets a physical thrill out of it. Her primary reactions to some of her more gruesome kills consists of sheer glee.

Very much diisagree here.

Just now, Jabar of House Titan said:

I'm with @Platypus Rex on this one. Just because a character is sympathetic or even heroic, it doesn't mean that that character is not evil or that they are incapable of doing evil things. That's what the definition of an anti-hero is: a hero who has evil (re: villainous) tendencies, motives or methods.

Eddard Stark technically did two evil things: neglecting to properly deal with Cersei and repeatedly refusing to tell Robert Baratheon the truth...well the truth as it pertains to the Lannisters, Bran and Littlefinger.

Evil? Not in my book. I'd say he was naive. Guilty of procrastinating. A number of things but I would never classify these actions as "evil". 

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On 9/24/2019 at 1:55 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Stop it. Slynt did not commit a minor offense and it had nothing to do with his family.

It absolutely had everything to do with Jon's family.  That's why he invented all kinds of shitty reasons to kill Slynt.  None of it justified.  Jon took the moment to avenge his father.

 

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On 9/23/2019 at 11:10 PM, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Jon tolerated Slynt as a member of the Night's Watch until Slynt refused to obey the Lord Commander (Jon)'s direct order.  Even then, Jon repeated the order, in effect a second chance; and Slynt still refused.  The Night's Watch is a military organization and a Commander whose orders are not obeyed will not be able to command, and the structure of the organization could unravel.  Jon was fully justified in taking Slynt's head.

Jon lets Mance Rayder go unpunished for his crimes, which are many times worse than Slynt's minor.  Jon's prejudice prevented justice.

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