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Alexander Leonard

Why was Lyanna Stark willingly married to Rhaegar when he had not divorced Elia Martell?

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8 hours ago, Aurane said:

I'm not sure if Rhaegar would of been able to legitimize Jon since he was only the crown prince for his whole life, since Aerys died after him.

Well to be fair, I don't think Rhaegar was planning to die on the Trident. He was going to be King one day, and he would've probably legitimized Jon then.

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On 2/8/2019 at 1:04 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again he already plans to usurp the children of his brother. His followers won’t be more likely to  turn away just because Stannis may have a better claim. As Renly says it doesn’t matter if Stannis is telling the truth. And given Stannis’ inevitable demise in Renly’s eyes pretending to think Stannis is lying, would seem pointless.

It matters a lot to the Lannisters if Stannis is perceived as telling the truth, which is why they try to counteract it with slander against Stannis (which Renly repeats). Perhaps after Stannis dies it would be convenient to adopt his line of attack on Joffrey, but before then Renly can't win on grounds of legitimacy.

5 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

Well to be fair, I don't think Rhaegar was planning to die on the Trident. He was going to be King one day, and he would've probably legitimized Jon then.

Rhaegar already has Aegon, whom he believed to be "the prince who was promised". Why does he need to legitimize his third child?

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2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It matters a lot to the Lannisters if Stannis is perceived as telling the truth, which is why they try to counteract it with slander against Stannis (which Renly repeats). Perhaps after Stannis dies it would be convenient to adopt his line of attack on Joffrey, but before then Renly can't win on grounds of legitimacy.

Renly never tried to win on grounds of legitimacy. His moto for why he should be King is he’d be the best at it. Without Stannis’ claim being valid he would skipping 3 people in the line of succession, instead of just one really unpopular heathen. 

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On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:32 PM, Alexander Leonard said:

Lyanna was a strong and willful girl. She carried a sword and "wolf blood" flew in her vein. I cannot believe she could be raped without fighting back or committing suicide.

Lyanna did not have a sword . But I guess the Kingsguard was to protect Rhaegar from Lyanna . lol.

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On 2/8/2019 at 8:13 PM, zoenerys said:

YESSSS 100%. I feel the bold point is often overlooked by everyone. Just because someone goes willingly doesn't mean they stayed willingly. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were so happy and in love that Lyanna truly wanted to be in the TOJ the whole time, why have 3 armed guards outside the door so that no one could leave/enter? 

Lyanna was in my mind manipulated/groomed/seduced by this older more powerful man and when she realized what had happened it was too late.  

It is certainly possible that Lyanna went willingly but was later kept against her will, just as it is possible that she was taken against her will but later chose to remain. We just don't know. And the presence of the KG doesn't tell us either way. Were they keeping her prisoner, or guarding her against anyone who came for her, or some combination of both? It's not clear. But I do think we should consider the possibility that Lyanna didn't necessarily have a single unchanging mindset from the time she was allegedly abducted by Rhaegar to the time she died. It is unlikely to be that simple, whether or not she went willingly, whether or not she stayed willingly the whole time.

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On 2/9/2019 at 12:14 AM, Aurane said:

For the most part Rhaegar is portrayed as this dreamy poetic prince charming which probably means that Martin is going to subvert our expectations.

The existing five books were published over the course of fifteen years, and the more positive impressions of Rhaegar were mostly gradually revealed over the course of those books.

In the first book, Rhaegar is mainly portrayed as the man who:

- knighted the murderous monster Ser Gregor Clegane
- insulted his own wife by riding past her and naming Lyanna the queen of love and beauty
- kidnapped Lyanna, another man's betrothed, and raped her over and over

There are a few hints that this might not be entirely accurate, but the perception of Rhaegar in the first book is mostly as a very bad person.

His sister Daenerys believes, as told to her by her brother of questionable sanity and reliably Viserys, that Rhaegar loved and died fighting for Lyanna, but that doesn't necessarily indicate whether he is a good or bad man.

Other than that, the main hint that the narrative pushed by Robert and Bran might not be accurate is Jorah's statement to Daenerys that she is in truth her brother's [Rhaegar's] sister, when she tries to protect the women being raped by the Dothraki.

But even then, at first we have reason to wonder whether Jorah is giving an honest account of his perception of Rhaegar, or playing on Daenerys's existing view of Rhaegar as a heroic figure.

It's not until in later books that we get more accounts of Rhaegar that give us reason to think that the accounts of Robert and Bran might be far off.

That's not to say that Daenerys's view or Jorah's account of Rhaegar will turn out to be 100% accurate either. But the view presented of Rhaegar at first is overwhelmingly negative, and he is only later, gradually given a more positive impressions.

It seems highly unlikely that, after creating a more nuanced impression of Rhaegar over five books, GRRM is going to turn around and revert to the impressions given by Robert and Bran, two people who had no first hand knowledge of whatever occurred between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

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On 2/9/2019 at 3:38 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Renly never tried to win on grounds of legitimacy. His moto for why he should be King is he’d be the best at it. Without Stannis’ claim being valid he would skipping 3 people in the line of succession, instead of just one really unpopular heathen. 

He never tried because he had no leg to stand on. And his reason for ignoring Stannis' position as eldest is that Renly had the larger army.

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1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He never tried because he had no leg to stand on. And his reason for ignoring Stannis' position as eldest is that Renly had the larger army.

So Stannis’ claims don’t matter. Renly never contended his blood claim triumphed Stannis’ or the children of Cersi. He could neither prove them, and even if he could Renly has shown to his followers  he has no problem skipping the line of succession when it suits him. There is no reason for Renly to pretend. In his eyes Stannis would be dead in a day.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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I think Rhaegar promised Lyanna to marry her. She wanted to escape her marriage to Robert, and by marrying the crown prince she can be sure her father will never be able to make her marry Robert. I don't think it's a coincidence that they met not far from Harrenhal - near the Isle of Faces, which is full of weirwoods (and thus Lyanna can get married Northern-style). As for Rhaegar, I don't think he particularly cared whether Lyanna is a lawful wife or not, he just wanted a third head, base or true - legitimization, if necessary, can come later. As for Elia, I think Lyanna probably thought that becoming Rhaegar's second wife would be the best case scenario for all; she doesn't marry Robert, and Elia remains Rhaegar's wife (just not the only one).

Lyanna probably thought that afterwards, Rhaegar would take her to court to be a crown princess, furture queen, mother of princes, with a father who can't do much about it, no matter how furious, safe from Robert. Instead, she spend the last year of her life completely isolated, far away from home and family, dying at sixteen to bring forth a baby whose parentage posed a danger to him. 

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1 hour ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

As for Rhaegar, I don't think he particularly cared whether Lyanna is a lawful wife or not, he just wanted a third head, base or true - legitimization, if necessary, can come later.

I feel sorry for Lyanna if he wanted her primarily for breeding.

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Two possibilities 

1. The marriage was annulled & the People of Westeros are unaware.

2. Rhaegar wanted two wives like Aegon the conqueror & found a Septon to make it happen. Would explain the cover up after his death. The Faith would have been against such a union.

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I think GRRM wrote himself into a corner if he wanted to paint Rhaegar and Lyanna as a good and romantic people.

Lyanna if she went willing no matter the reason, she comes out as a hypocrite brat.

Rhaegar comes out as a awful husband, that humiliated his wife and left her and the kids for a new younger girl.

At the same time, when he chooses to place Eddard refusing to think the worst of Rhaegar, even though he is the most affected by this decision (losing father, brother and sister in the process).

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8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I think GRRM wrote himself into a corner if he wanted to paint Rhaegar and Lyanna as a good and romantic people.

Lyanna if she went willing no matter the reason, she comes out as a hypocrite brat.

Rhaegar comes out as a awful husband, that humiliated his wife and left her and the kids for a new younger girl.

Perhaps GRRM expects more nuanced thinking from his readers?
Hypocritical brat and awful husband are rather shallow readings.

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

At the same time, when he chooses to place Eddard refusing to think the worst of Rhaegar, even though he is the most affected by this decision (losing father, brother and sister in the process).

Funny that. Its almost like hypocritical brat and awful husband aren't good descriptors, if Ned is any indication. 

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

Perhaps GRRM expects more nuanced thinking from his readers?
 Hypocritical brat and awful husband are rather shallow readings.

if Lyanna went willing with Rhaegar she is a hypocrite. She chastise Robert for sleeping around and judge him on this alone, even though he wasn't cheatting or anything she calls out his potentional unfaithfulness, but at the same time went along with a married men father of 2. this is hypocrise. Plain and simple, being "willinfull" lady, rebel teenager, does not change it.

Rhaegar is a awful husband, or do you disagree?

Elia Martell always so frail gives him two kings risking her life in the process, was abandoned by him togheter with her kids to become a hostage of his crazy father, while he started this mess by eloping with a young girl and staying with her during most part of the rebellion, after public humiliating his Elia in the biggest tournament so far... Awful husband sounds a very kind of way do describe him, crazy delusional idiot with no concern for consequences of his actions also sounds accurate, but I do like to keep things simple. English is not my first language and some people get offended over nothing...

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Funny that. Its almost like hypocritical brat and awful husband aren't good descriptors, if Ned is any indication. 

Well, when you judge their words and they actions sound's accurate too. Eddard never bad mouth Aerys either, and I doubt anyone would have anything kind to say about the mad king.

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Uhhhhh, dornish law allows extra queens.

Myrcella.

Lyanna.

It's a thing with them.

No?

So maybe the 'Southern ambitions' of the Starks was to mess with the prince's first wife to clear that marriage out and make room for a Stark princess?  That's based on nothing.  You know how I do it.   But then the king burned those starks and rheagar was left with lyanna saying Damn this is awkward... i feel like i owe you something.  Wanna carry through with the plan anyways?   We'll be like butch and sundance.  Thelma & louise.  Romeo & Juliet.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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9 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Uhhhhh, dornish law allows extra queens.

 Myrcella.

Lyanna.

It's a thing with them.

No?

A paramour is not the same as queen/wife/lady. Lyanna wasn't dornish either, her costumes would be diferent and the dornish knows it. If she seduced Rhaegar she could replace Elia like Renly tried to do with Cersei/Margaery.

Also Oberyn is pretty clear about his fellings for Rhaegar and Lyanna.

The silver haired coward was fucking his wolf whore in DORNE whilst Dornish men fought for his kingdom and Elia and her babes was trapped at King's Landing until their grotesque death. I'll get to kill the others but i will have to wait for the afterlife for Rhaegar to meet my blade" -Oberyn Martell

12 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

So maybe the 'Southern ambitions' of the Starks was to mess with the prince's first wife to clear that marriage out and make room for a Stark queen?  That's based on nothing.  You know how I do it.

I doubt Rickard would pull out such a move, with his already bethrothal daughter without informing his heir about it.

It  wasn't "Rhaegar come down and honor my sister" it was "Rhaegar come out and die".

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34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Also Oberyn is pretty clear about his fellings for Rhaegar and Lyanna.

The silver haired coward was fucking his wolf whore in DORNE whilst Dornish men fought for his kingdom and Elia and her babes was trapped at King's Landing until their grotesque death. I'll get to kill the others but i will have to wait for the afterlife for Rhaegar to meet my blade" -Oberyn Martell

Whose ass did you pull that quote out of? I don't recall Oberyn saying any such thing.

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8 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Whose ass did you pull that quote out of? I don't recall Oberyn saying any such thing.

Sorry, I remember Oberyn being harsh on Rhaegar, so I google  "Rhaegar oberyn quotes" and this showed up in multiple results.

Now looking at my kindle, I don't find anything. even though I finded this quote in multiple results.  good dam fanfictions. Now i fell really embarased, and I blame those guys:

https://www.quora.com/Was-Rhaegar-really-that-great

https://www.quora.com/How-was-the-relation-between-Oberyn-Martell-and-Rhaegar-Targaryen-any-backstory-of-them

now  pardo me. I will hide under a rock for a moment...

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