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Why was Lyanna Stark willingly married to Rhaegar when he had not divorced Elia Martell?

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On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 6:27 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Renly wants the support of stormlander bannermen. If one of them wants to remove Joffrey from the throne and replace him with someone else, but Joffrey's legitimacy isn't in dispute, then he's abandoning any legal justification in favor of might makes right and also has no reason to prefer Stannis over Renly unless Stannis has more might available to overthrow Joffrey. If Joffrey illegitimate, then Stannis has a claim to the throne that Renly lacks and a bannerman has a reason to prefer Stannis. If enough of them were swayed by that reason to support Stannis, then Renly's advantage in numbers would also be diminished.

The Stormlords aren't going to be more opposed to Renly usurping Robert's unpopular brother than they are against usurping Robert's son.  We as readers might know about Joffrey's complete awfulness as an individual, but the majority of the lords of the Seven Kingdoms don't. Penrose, Tarth, and such aren't going step back if being told that rather than usurping Joffrey, Tommen, and Stannis that they are just usurping Stannis.  The same is true for the Reach lords that support Renly over Stannis. Hell, the only people that it might affect if Renly announced it would be the Westerland lords as that would give them more reasons to doubt Joffrey's legitimacy.  So it wouldn't hurt him with his allies, while possibly hurting his enemies so Renly has no reason to hide it.  

Furthermore, there is the simple fact that Renly never once makes the argument that both he and Stannis are equal rebels.  Catelyn is the only character to bring it up and Renly's responds by bringing up Stannis's letter he fears it so little.

 

By the way Martin has made comments that divorce appears to exist only uncommon in Westeros. 

"situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common."

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

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On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 11:18 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

The turning point in history.  They went Three Stooges on Aerys.  

Vast maester conspiracy to kill magic,  counter conspiracy to combine magic bloodlines,  the oddness of abducting Aerys and then Lyanna, the unlikely Rhaegar losing to Robert, the Daynes hanging around until you get hyped about them even though you don't know why.    I'd love for it all to be significant and tie together even.    Rheagar wanted 3 heads but gave the world  3 Lannister stooges and Robert,  King Shemp.

 

I agree with about the 3 heads bit but I don't understand the 3 Lannisters Robert  who is King Shemp?   Do you mean Robert, Stammis and Renly ?

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On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 11:01 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Wrong, it's never said that Cersei started to sleep with Jaime after finding about Robert and his cheatings, she just like to think that this was when Joffrey was conceived.

As soon as Cersei closed her eyes, the king would steal off to console the poor lonely creature. One night she had Jaime follow him, to confirm her suspicions. When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. “No,” she had replied, “I want him horned.” She liked to think that was the night when Joffrey was conceived.

in fact Robert did tried to give this marriage a chance and was constatly ignored, and Cersei sleept with Jaime from the earlier years of their marriage.

In the early years of their marriage, Robert was forever imploring her to hunt with him, but Cersei had always begged off. His hunting trips allowed her time with Jaime. Golden days and silver nights. It was a dangerous dance that they had danced, to be sure. Eyes and ears were everywhere within the Red Keep, and one could never be certain when Robert would return. Somehow the peril had only served to make their times together that much more thrilling.

Sir you have quote me wrongly yes Cersei was always fool around with her brother. I believe she give him her maiden head on Wedding Dress, but if you read that books Cersi told Jamie to follow Robert that night and found out that he was cheating on her. Well that event change everything I believe if Robert didn't cheat on Cersei would have children with him. Maybe still cheat with her brother, but the children would been Robert. Lyanna always knew that about Robert that why she didn't wanted to marry him.

Edited by Sophia [email protected]
grammer

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On 2/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, Arthur Peres said:

No, you think you understand him. I never claimed I did, and his actions were mad. He left a mess behind him starting the chain of events that finished his dynisty.

This is the point.
You assess his actions as mad. Therefore you claim to know things you cannot.
I don't claim to know him, I point out that there are things we have not enough information about, and that what we are revealed of him does not suggest madness, rashness, or foolishness.

On 2/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, Arthur Peres said:

So you do agree that the answer would be a flat, "hell no" ?

No, just a no.

On 2/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Why do you think Rickard would take this as a complement then?

You don't have to agree to something for it to be a compliment to you.

On 2/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Also, Varysblackfyre321 just posted a great explanation that polligamy would not be tolerated.

False and rebutted. See Ygraine's post for a succinct summary, even if you don't agree with the direct rebuttal.

On 2/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, Arthur Peres said:

We do know it. He(Rhaegar) stayed missed from the realm during most of the rebellion only returning before the Trident.

No, we don't know it.

We know the King/court couldn't find him at KL. That is all we know. At least initially - Hightower clearly did find him eventually. 

We don't know what communications he had with anyone during or before that time. 

On 2/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Now this is you trying to give Rhaegar a clean slate that he doesn't have. You're the one going with your own theories instead of facts. Rhaegar shitted the bed and refused to deal with it.

No, I'm not stating this as a fact, I'm pointing out that it is a possibility. You are stating your belief as a fact, when there are far too many unknowns for any of us to 'know' what happened and accurately make assessments yet.

On 2/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Considering that Ned went on to rebel and depose the entire dinasty I can safely assume he was not pleased by Rhaegar actions and their consequences. 

No one suggested he was pleased. But the fact is, both Ned and Robert had effectively two choices. Rebel and deposed Aerys, or give up their heads. Rhaegar's actions, and how they feel about them, are not relevant to this choice.

On 2/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Ned does not show Rhaegar any respect or disrespect.

He does.

Quote

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

This is a direct comparison to Robert, as the paragraph before Littlefinger had been telling Ned about Robert filling the bellies of whores and fishwives.
It shows Ned respected Rhaegar as an honourable man, not the sort to frequent whorehouses, a better man than Robert, in this respect at least.

On 2/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, Arthur Peres said:

He does not say anything bad of Aerys either, would you say that he cared about the mad kings? He did take Jaime for a Kingslayer and oathbreaker and had issues with his murder after all.

We are not talking about care, we are talking about respect. Nothing Ned ever says or think is disrespectul to Rhaegar. He is always respectful, especially in comparison to Robert his friend.

Add to that Jorah, who was definitely on the rebel side, telling Dany that saving women from rape made her like Rhaegar. Respect, from the opposition, again.

On 2/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Eddard stayed silent went Robert cursed Rhaegar, to compare a similar situation Barristan did not do the same when Dany bad mounthed Eddard and Arys also did not when Arianne cursed Robert.

 

Ned wanted to, but knew it would serve no purpose. He quietly defied Robert in another manner as a response.

Quote
"Nonetheless," Ned said, "the murder of children … it would be vile … unspeakable …"
"Unspeakable?" the king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."
Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert's thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. "You can't get your hands on this one, can you?" he said quietly.

 

On 2/15/2019 at 10:11 PM, Geddus said:

Oh, so it's my opinion that Elia was never described as an idiot, or crazy? Cool. You have a funny definition of "opinion".

No, its your opinion that such behaviour (or thinking) on her part would be idiotic or crazy. But you have only allowed a very narrow selection of facts and circumstances into your assessment. There are plenty of reasons why such behaviour or thinking on her part would not be idiotic or crazy.

On 2/16/2019 at 5:01 PM, Arthur Peres said:

in fact Robert did tried to give this marriage a chance and was constatly ignored, and Cersei sleept with Jaime from the earlier years of their marriage.

I recall Cersei sleeping with Jaime on the morning of her marriage, though I can't find the quote. Sort of a 'last time' thing maybe, though it seems unlikely she'd ever had stuck to that anyway. And even that is effectively being unfaithful and treasonous, though they are not yet married, as it puts into doubt the paternity of any child conceived very early in the marriage.

Certainly Jaime and Cersei were caught in some compromising situation very young, and thereafter separated more, though its not clear if they were actually fucking or maybe still to young for that.
Notice also that even when Cersei thought herself in love with Rhaegar and was all keen to marry him, her comparison of him against Jaime has a sexual connotation (Jaime is 'a callow boy' in comparison to the prince). Its not clear when she started sleeping with Jaime, though it seems to have been from a rather young age, and never really stopped. Thats how she got him to agree to be a KG in the first place, to stay near her.

On 2/17/2019 at 2:44 AM, Crona said:

Well, I think we just don’t have enough information.

I don’t believe it aligns with Rhaegar’s character to just leave his wife and children for another woman because she can no longer give him another child.

I would agree, but there is the 'there must be one more' comment in Dany's vision. 'The dragon has three heads', and it seems he believed that Aegon would save the world (the Prince that was Promised) but that three heads of the dragon were involved and he perhaps therefore he must have at least one more child.
Its clear from Maester Aemon that Rhaegar was interested in this area of prophecy and they wrote to each other about it, so its not just a fake dream from the Undying.

It also seems more than a coincidence, that having thought at one stage the PtwP was himself ("it seems I must be a warrior" says the teen bookworm prince to the master of arms after reading something in his scrolls), then it was Aegon ("he is the PtwP" and "his is the Song of Ice and Fire"), its interesting that the maid he 'steals' perhaps for the third head, is a maid that would finally seal and consummate the 'Pact of Ice and Fire'. Perhaps he learned more and later believed that the Stark/Targ child would be the PtwP, most important of the three heads.
Or perhaps it was just coincidental, who knows?

On 2/17/2019 at 2:44 AM, Crona said:

But I also don’t see Elia being complacent about Rhaegar getting another wife.  

Complacent, no. But there are two possibilities that lead to her acceptance
1. she may understand a lot more than us about the Song of Ice and fire, the Price that was Promised and the Three Heads of the Dragon.

2. she may not have really wanted Rhaegar in her bed anyway, due to a) arranged marriage, no love and b) health concerns and risk factor

Or, she was upset and angry and felt betrayed. Who knows? Not us, yet.

On 2/17/2019 at 2:44 AM, Crona said:

It’s not in Lyanna’s character either to be with someone who’s already married, regardless of what he said I don’t think she was too naive to think just because he promised to stay her bed only would be enough for her. He would still have another wife and children that he is responsible for and she will end having to share her husband.

Well, first lets just remember, that wise beyond her years or not, she was just 15. 

But having said that, remember that his first wife was not his choice, and its now dangerous for her health for him to sleep with her. So there is a fair chance that any promises to keep to her bed only would actually work.

On 2/17/2019 at 2:44 AM, Crona said:

Elia and Rhaegar’s relationship was described as complicated and I think there was something going on with their relationship that had triggered him to Lyanna. I don’t think it was pure prophecy but a mix of his situation and the prophecy that brought him and Lyanna together.

Sure. 
I think he found her as KotLT, but didn't 'dob her in'. I think that was part of the draw, though not likely all of it, for him too. A brave, pro-active young woman who risked much for the sake of others in defiance of conventions. 

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8 hours ago, Minsc said:

The Stormlords aren't going to be more opposed to Renly usurping Robert's unpopular brother than they are against usurping Robert's son.  We as readers might know about Joffrey's complete awfulness as an individual, but the majority of the lords of the Seven Kingdoms don't. Penrose, Tarth, and such aren't going step back if being told that rather than usurping Joffrey, Tommen, and Stannis that they are just usurping Stannis.  The same is true for the Reach lords that support Renly over Stannis. Hell, the only people that it might affect if Renly announced it would be the Westerland lords as that would give them more reasons to doubt Joffrey's legitimacy.  So it wouldn't hurt him with his allies, while possibly hurting his enemies so Renly has no reason to hide it.  

Furthermore, there is the simple fact that Renly never once makes the argument that both he and Stannis are equal rebels.  Catelyn is the only character to bring it up and Renly's responds by bringing up Stannis's letter he fears it so little.

 

By the way Martin has made comments that divorce appears to exist only uncommon in Westeros. 

"situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common."

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

Lords generally prefer to avoid a regency (unless they get to be regent), so Stannis would have that advantage over Joffrey. He is also a Stormlander, unlike Joffrey. Furthermore, he wasn't the one who foolishly beheaded Ned Stark and thus guaranteed that one of the seven kingdoms would always be opposed to him (we as readers know about the deal Ned made to protect his daughters, but everyone else knows what happened in public). There are multiple reasons to want to usurp Joffrey, and so when Renly declared himself king he had plenty of takers.

Renly wasn't relying on make some sort of argument to a Great Council, he was relying on having the largest army, which is something that happened before a POV character got to see it come about.

GRRM was explaining what happens with a failed marriage in Westeros. The outcome was not divorce, because that wasn't an option available. As far as I know, the only time a lawful & consummated marriage can be invalidated is if holy orders override the marriage vow.

6 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Sir you have quote me wrongly yes Cersei was always fool around with her brother. I believe she give him her maiden head on Wedding Dress, but if you read that books Cersi told Jamie to follow Robert that night and found out that he was cheating on her.

Could you provide a cite? https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ is helpful for this.

5 hours ago, corbon said:

This is a direct comparison to Robert, as the paragraph before Littlefinger had been telling Ned about Robert filling the bellies of whores and fishwives.

It shows Ned respected Rhaegar as an honourable man, not the sort to frequent whorehouses, a better man than Robert, in this respect at least.

As far as I know, Aerys wasn't known to frequent brothels either. Instead he made his wives handmaidens into his mistresses. This didn't make him make him particularly honorable, although I suppose it's more kingly.

Quote

2. she may not have really wanted Rhaegar in her bed anyway, due to a) arranged marriage, no love and b) health concerns and risk factor

Quote

But having said that, remember that his first wife was not his choice, and its now dangerous for her health for him to sleep with her. So there is a fair chance that any promises to keep to her bed only would actually work.

We have some POV characters who were in another arranged marriage, Ned & Cat. Each of them is happy to have the other in their bed, although Cat was also healthy enough to have children. Cat is not happy about Jon's presence serving as a reminder of her husband having another woman. Many nobles have arranged marriages, although in Robert's case his parents died early enough that it seems his betrothal to Lyanna reflected his choice. So the logic about choice implying faithfulness would apply to him, with the added benefit that his pre-existing marriage doesn't require any such assumption of lovelessness as it doesn't actually exist.

 

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2 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Lords generally prefer to avoid a regency (unless they get to be regent), so Stannis would have that advantage over Joffrey. He is also a Stormlander, unlike Joffrey. Furthermore, he wasn't the one who foolishly beheaded Ned Stark and thus guaranteed that one of the seven kingdoms would always be opposed to him (we as readers know about the deal Ned made to protect his daughters, but everyone else knows what happened in public). There are multiple reasons to want to usurp Joffrey, and so when Renly declared himself king he had plenty of takers.

Renly wasn't relying on make some sort of argument to a Great Council, he was relying on having the largest army, which is something that happened before a POV character got to see it come about.

GRRM was explaining what happens with a failed marriage in Westeros. The outcome was not divorce, because that wasn't an option available. As far as I know, the only time a lawful & consummated marriage can be invalidated is if holy orders override the marriage vow.

 

Lords also generally prefer to avoid jerkish kings that are known to hold various petty grudges and are generally unforgiving, so Stannis is at disadvantage in that area.  They also especially generally don't like kings that have taken up with a foreign religion that has caused them to order the symbols of their faith burned, another disadvantage for Stannis.  Joffrey is believed to be Robert's, the Stormland's favorite son, son which likely gives him similar Stormlander cred as Stannis.  Stannis will have the similar issue of Tywin being opposed to him the same as the North opposing Joffrey and I bet the Stormlords hold more concern over Tywin Lannister than Robb Stark.  Nor does Joffrey hold an unrepentant rivalry against Mace Tyrell guaranteeing that the Reach will be opposed to him.  There are plenty of reasons to oppose Stannis, so when Renly declared himself king none of his lords were concerned about Stannis.

 

So like I said Renly never argued that he and Stannis were equal rebels so that is obvious not reason for him to keep the incest a secret.

 

GRRM comment acknowledges that divorce exists only uncommon.  If the option was unavailable he would have just it wasn't an option.  We also hear in TWOIAF of how a Gardner king set aside his wife to marry an Andel princess, Daemon Targaryen asking his brother to set aside his marriage, Naenys asking Aegon IV to set aside their marriage, and even among non-kings of Lady Tarbeck trying to convince Tytos Lannister set aside his marriage and marry her.  

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8 hours ago, corbon said:

I recall Cersei sleeping with Jaime on the morning of her marriage, though I can't find the quote. 

 

Moelle and Scolera were waiting to lead her back up to her tower cell. Unella followed close behind them. “We have all been praying for Your Grace,” Septa Moelle said as they were climbing. “Yes,” Septa Scolera echoed, “and you must feel so much lighter now, clean and innocent as a maid on the morning of her wedding.”
I fucked Jaime on the morning of my wedding, the queen recalled. “I do,” she said, “I feel reborn, as if a festering boil has been lanced and now at last I can begin to heal. I could almost fly.” She imagined how sweet it would be to slam an elbow into Septa Scolera’s face and send her careening down the spiral steps. If the gods were good, the wrinkled old cunt might crash into Septa Unella and take her down with her.

 

It is such a hilarious exchange :D

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20 hours ago, corbon said:

 There are plenty of reasons why such behaviour or thinking on her part would not be idiotic or crazy.

Elia not caring about Rhaegar taking a mistress? Sure, no problem with that - but then he couldn't choose the daughter of the Warden of the North for that role.

But we're talking about the prince taking another wife, from a family more powerful than the Martells, whose children would be a gigantic threat to Aegon and Rhaenys: I'd like to read even one reasoning that has Elia agreeing to that without looking delusional.

Edited by Geddus

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1 hour ago, Geddus said:

Elia not caring about Rhaegar taking a mistress? Sure, no problem with that - but then he couldn't choose the daughter of the Warden of the North for that role.

But we're talking about the prince taking another wife, from a family more powerful than the Martells, whose children would be a gigantic threat to Aegon and Rhaenys: I'd like to read even one reasoning that has Elia agreeing to that without looking delusional.

Under normal circumstances: Lyanna's future children can marry Aegon and Rhaenys. Problem solved (or rather, no more of a problem than Rhaegar marrying again if Elia had died of some affliction)

Under the impending ice zombie apocalypse: a matter of minor importance.

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2 hours ago, Geddus said:

Elia not caring about Rhaegar taking a mistress? Sure, no problem with that - but then he couldn't choose the daughter of the Warden of the North for that role.

But we're talking about the prince taking another wife, from a family more powerful than the Martells, whose children would be a gigantic threat to Aegon and Rhaenys: I'd like to read even one reasoning that has Elia agreeing to that without looking delusional.

This is a world where magic and prophecy exist. We know Rhaegar was fascinated by prophecy. He might have shared those prophecies with Elia, she might have bought into them too, which would make her acceptance not delusional.

No surety any of this happened of course, but we aren’t looking for certainty, just plausible reasons

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On 2/14/2019 at 9:28 PM, corbon said:

A little bit, yes. But Robert wasn't horned, because she never was his bride, only his betrothed.
Robert didn't have any indication of caring much about Lyanna then, and he laughed off the Harrenhal incident. It is likely he could have been bought off with other options and some rewards.

 

You conveniently missed the part were it said that he was no more pleased than Brandon, he was just able to control himself better. If it hadn't been for Brandon, Robert would have likely done something that would jeopardize his life. He isn't compared to Lyonel Baratheon the laughing storm for nothing.

On 2/14/2019 at 9:31 PM, corbon said:

I think if you pay attention, you'll find that people promoting Elia having had an affair are mostly doing it because they can;t stand R+L=J. 
Ygraine, I think, is not 'promoting it', just point it out as a possibility. Not for the sake of Rhaegar, but for the sake of Elia, giving her more character and more agency in her own life. 

I had already expressed the idea that Elia might have had an affair with Dayne but I feel you're willfully bias here. There is no evidence of an affair from Elia's part yet the only people insisting on that theory (based on nothing) here are R&L die hard fan or simply Jon fans like Free Northman reborn, both with an obvious agenda that you can keep pretending not understanding.

 

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We want Rheagar to be onto something, hot on the trail of proper prophecy interpretation, but who's to say he wasn't totally wrong about the 2 dragon heads he'd identified, and fooled by folklore into seeking the 3rd through Lyanna?  Because we readers may have fallen into the same trap.   We could be feeling the same as the realm at that time, wishing and hoping Rhaegar wasn't mad but rather 'Wise' on account of his pops embracing full on nuttery.  What if Rhaegar was in the grips of a "soft madness" or was merely another victim of Web MD who misdiagnosed his family with an advanced case of Prophecy Heads the way we might look at the symptoms for Vitriolic Buttbone Rectalisis and say, "my god I think i've got that!"   

He was under tremendous pressure to stay sane, so he poured the family insanity impulse into artistic channels, music,  reading a lot, becoming esoteric, maybe getting an obsessive prophetic study hobby, but it was a contained mini- madness.   Harmless.   And it was about  the dragons and the dynasty bouncing back, something better than Targ insanity to focus on.  Salvation.  Then he met Lyanna and she dug his cult leader vibe and hot bod and he did some professor flirting about their bloodlines being kept apart and the significance of combining them, and she was all, "shoot, mister, if this ice and fire cult is an excuse to sit on your face, I'm willing to drink the cool- aid."

Then it was like the Seinfeld where George throws out the possibility of a three- way as a joke only for the ladies to say they're into it, and Costanza is suddenly in it with no plan and no idea what to do next.   The Dornish speak of Elia as a saint, like someone who would blush, faint, and get angry upon waking after someone suggested a menage a trois.  But boredom is a powerful force at KL.  Look at the zany spy antics Varys resorts to in his spare time to stay entertained.  Arya took up swordplay.  The Lannisters copulate.  Margeary was running her own reality show Keeping up with the Tyrells.  So maybe Elia, like Rosanne Barr, said let's give this third person in our bed a try? .... naw.  She went straight to the family and taddled on Rhaegar.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Under normal circumstances: Lyanna's future children can marry Aegon and Rhaenys. Problem solved (or rather, no more of a problem than Rhaegar marrying again if Elia had died of some affliction)

Exactly, Rhaegar marrying someone else while already having children would have been very dangerous in any case. It's that kind of thing that caused the Dance.

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

This is a world where magic and prophecy exist. We know Rhaegar was fascinated by prophecy. He might have shared those prophecies with Elia, she might have bought into them too, which would make her acceptance not delusional.

If it's a real prophecy it will happen, there's no point in trying to fulfill it.

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1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

You conveniently missed the part were it said that he was no more pleased than Brandon, he was just able to control himself better. If it hadn't been for Brandon, Robert would have likely done something that would jeopardize his life. He isn't compared to Lyonel Baratheon the laughing storm for nothing.

Well, that was Ned, not Robert. I addressed that too. Possibly another thread, because now I can't find it.

Yandel says 

Quote

Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.

Robert laughing it off sounds like him. I think the 'some say' were they actual eye witnesses. However, King Robert has created a big thing in his mind about this much later, and Robert and his Heirs are Yandel's target audience here. So I see the second part of the report on what Robert felt as a retcon by Yandel to make Robert look better.

1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

I had already expressed the idea that Elia might have had an affair with Dayne but I feel you're willfully bias here. There is no evidence of an affair from Elia's part yet the only people insisting on that theory (based on nothing) here are R&L die hard fan or simply Jon fans like Free Northman reborn, both with an obvious agenda that you can keep pretending not understanding.

They aren't insisting on it. They are pointing out its one possibility, supported (but not proven, and maybe not even made probable, but supported nonetheless) by other data points, that helps makes all the characters and actions we have been given thus far fit together better. Its not a certainty, and not the only way they fit together well. 
What we are given is fragments of a picture that make no sense together. Rhaegar the highly intelligent, famously dutiful, wildly popular prince does this seemingly insane act that is totally selfish and jerkish and is a reason for pretty much everyone to hate him.
Except only one person hates him, and that person is clearly irrational. Even his former enemies still show him respect.

It seems that some people take that fragmentary picture at face value even though its totally contradictory, and rush to judgement. Other people look at the whole picture, find context, try to interpret possibilities that fill in the gaps, preferably ones with other supporting data points, and point to these as reasons why we should not rush to judgement on a fragmentary and apparently internally inconsistent picture.

21 minutes ago, Geddus said:

If it's a real prophecy it will happen, there's no point in trying to fulfill it.

Yeah, thats good in theory, but no one actually works that way.
And you can see why.
"I'm prophecied to be king. Ok, I'll just nap my life away and wait to be king." => it ain't gonna happen. 
 

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43 minutes ago, corbon said:

They aren't insisting on it. They are pointing out its one possibility, supported (but not proven, and maybe not even made probable, but supported nonetheless) by other data points, that helps makes all the characters and actions we have been given thus far fit together better. Its not a certainty, and not the only way they fit together well. 

"Fit together better" according to what ? The romanticized depiction of a long dead character by people who loved him to his only remaining relative that you chose to take as gospel ? You go so far that you can't even accept his failures even when they are glaring at you, be it on the battlefield or on the political field.

Don't mistaken, there is no need to believe Robert's words on Rhaegar to see him as flawed individual.

43 minutes ago, corbon said:

What we are given is fragments of a picture that make no sense together. Rhaegar the highly intelligent, famously dutiful, wildly popular prince does this seemingly insane act that is totally selfish and jerkish and is a reason for pretty much everyone to hate him.
Except only one person hates him, and that person is clearly irrational. Even his former enemies still show him respect.


Contrary to what you might think Rhaegar being "highly intelligent, dutiful, and popular" doesn't prevent him from being flawed like every character from those books (or anyone actually). He certainly showed a high amount of arrogance when he thought he could insult three of the most powerful men of the realm and get away with it, that same arrogance that convinced him that he would crush Robert and the rebels at the Trident (except Robert's warhammer brought him back on earth). The way he was convinced that the prophecy had to revolve around him, that it had to be he or his progeny (an extansion of him) that was destined to save the world or whatever he believed makes me think that he was particularly egocentric.

In a way I believe he was narcissistic which I dare say wouldn't be so surprising for a Targaryen. Anyway I don't see how it prevents Rhaegar from being intelligent, dutiful, handsome, popular...

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39 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

"Fit together better" according to what ? The romanticized depiction of a long dead character by people who loved him to his only remaining relative that you chose to take as gospel ? You go so far that you can't even accept his failures even when they are glaring at you, be it on the battlefield or on the political field.

No. 
The words of a diverse group of people who were not his close friends and loved ones. People who are not afraid of criticising other Targaryens, people who don't just laud him as perfect.
Barristan, Jorah, Ned, Yandel, Tyrion, the commonfolk, Cersei, the list goes on.

Most of our info comes from Barristan, who was at court and around the prince most of his life, yet was never part of his inner circle, loves or companions. An ideal close-to-neutral observer, so to speak, given he carefully (in light of his own position and loyalties) criticises Aerys and Viserys. And most of his info comes in a fairly neutral context, presented in a neutral way, He also syas that Rhaegar was melancholy, and perhaps didn;t even have it in him to be happy, not exactly a glowing tribute.
Similary, Jorah was on the other side, and freely criticizes Viserys to Dany, and even disagrees with Rhaegar's handling of the war - effectively criticizing him for being too honourable and noble, and thus losing.

Its not a question of accepting or rejecting failures, or treating someone as special, its a case of looking at all the data, assessing where it comes from,  and trying to make sense of it.

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7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Under normal circumstances: Lyanna's future children can marry Aegon and Rhaenys. Problem solved (or rather, no more of a problem than Rhaegar marrying again if Elia had died of some affliction)

Under the impending ice zombie apocalypse: a matter of minor importance.

This assumes Lyanna bears more children, with at least one son and one daughter. Lyanna could only bear sons to Rheagar.  It’s a real possibility Lyanna bears Rheagar one son. Rhaeyns may not be enough to broker a peace.  Lyanna could also be whispering in her son’s ear talk of him being the true heir like Visenya did Maegor. And Rheagar clearly showed more affection towards Lyanna. It’s quite reasonable for Ellia to have feared his affections would extend to the son of Ellia. It creates needless risk to Ellia’s  progeny. I see no reason for Ellia  to be in favor of Rheagar taking on Lyanna.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

In a way I believe he was narcissistic which I dare say wouldn't be so surprising for a Targaryen. Anyway I don't see how it prevents Rhaegar from being intelligent, dutiful, handsome, popular...

This would seem true if Rheagar wasn’t given visions of the future or something like that  I mean it really would take a massive ego to accept so readily you are the messiah or are going to sire the messiahs. He doesn’t even consider the possibility that the chosen one not being strongly related to him in some way. 

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23 hours ago, Minsc said:

Lords also generally prefer to avoid jerkish kings that are known to hold various petty grudges and are generally unforgiving, so Stannis is at disadvantage in that area.  They also especially generally don't like kings that have taken up with a foreign religion that has caused them to order the symbols of their faith burned, another disadvantage for Stannis. 

They have acted to avoid a regency in the past. There isn't a comparable history of preventing disagreeable men from succeeding to the throne. It does seem plausible to me that R;hllorism would pose a problem, but in the book Renly just jokes about it and the "king's men" in Stannis' camp (like Davos) still adhere to the Seven. Even clergy of the Faith seem to accept the R'hllorist members of the Brotherhood Without Banners, with Thoros the Red Priest being blessed in the name of The Warrior. GRRM seems to minimize the importance of religion & the church in Westeros relative to medieval Europe, even as he borrows some of its trappings for The Faith.

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Joffrey is believed to be Robert's, the Stormland's favorite son, son which likely gives him similar Stormlander cred as Stannis. 

Joffrey was born in the crownlands and neglected by Robert. The court is full of Lannisters and their supporters. None of the Baratheon family supports Joffrey (in contrast with Rhaenyra's "Velaryon" offspring). Stormlanders can gain positions by supporting a legitimate Baratheon for the throne, and those on Robert's side in the rebellion (like Davos) particularly so if it's Stannis.

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Stannis will have the similar issue of Tywin being opposed to him the same as the North opposing Joffrey and I bet the Stormlords hold more concern over Tywin Lannister than Robb Stark.  Nor does Joffrey hold an unrepentant rivalry against Mace Tyrell guaranteeing that the Reach will be opposed to him.  There are plenty of reasons to oppose Stannis, so when Renly declared himself king none of his lords were concerned about Stannis.

There's the fact of opposition and then how difficult it will be to negotiate with an opposing party. The Lannisters try to negotiate to exchange prisoners (like Jaime), but this is difficult because they executed Ned and Tyrion's delegation tried to violently free Jaime while under a peace banner. Stannis hasn't done anything comparable to Tywin, much less Mace.

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So like I said Renly never argued that he and Stannis were equal rebels so that is obvious not reason for him to keep the incest a secret.

When trying to win supporters, you argue in favor of your own superiority rather than equality. Renly does however claim Robert was king just because his army won, implying that his larger army will do the same for him rather than Stannis, ignoring that Robert (rather than any of his fellow Lords Paramount) was acclaimed king because he was the most Targaryen nobleman outside the crown family (whose two adult male members south of the wall had acted so as to lose their perceived legitimacy).

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GRRM comment acknowledges that divorce exists only uncommon.  If the option was unavailable he would have just it wasn't an option.  We also hear in TWOIAF of how a Gardner king set aside his wife to marry an Andel princess, Daemon Targaryen asking his brother to set aside his marriage, Naenys asking Aegon IV to set aside their marriage, and even among non-kings of Lady Tarbeck trying to convince Tytos Lannister set aside his marriage and marry her.

So your one example of it actually happening (which you haven't specifically named) dates back to the Andal invasion, with an existing marriage that had not been ratified under the Seven, back when the Faith was rather fanatical about wiping out other religions? Additionally, while Merle I & his son Gwayne V did take Andal maidens for wives, I find no evidence of either being married prior to this. Merle's father, Garth IX, who had already married and had a child beforehand, did not set aside his wife as far as I can tell.

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This would seem true if Rheagar wasn’t given visions of the future or something like that  I mean it really would take a massive ego to accept so readily you are the messiah or are going to sire the messiahs. He doesn’t even consider the possibility that the chosen one not being strongly related to him in some way. 

My understanding was that Rhaegar was primarily influenced by pre-existing prophecies, rather than his own visions.

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On 2/14/2019 at 3:00 PM, Ygrain said:

Personally, I find the whole "poor Elia cheated on wife" way more victimizing than Elia taking her love life into her own hands and e.g. offering Rhaegar a deal that would allow them both to follow the calling of their hearts.

Do they?

An earlier plan to marry a Targ and Stark (didn't happen in the end) was called "a pact of ice and fire". If Rhaegar read about it in the family chronicles, he may have figured it out.

Yes, it is victimizing, because that's what she is in all of this, a victim. I can totally understand wanting Elia to have some power over her love life and headcanon-ing that, but I have a problem with this segueing into absolving Rhaegar of his responsibility in all of this. She is literally blamed by everyone that's not related to her in-verse for Rhaegar going off with Lyanna. Even Dany thinks she must've been a horrible person for Rhaegar to have done that to her. Giving him a valid reason such as an affair for him to abandon her and their kids for a year is so unfair.  She did nothing wrong to deserve this treatment. Her cheating on him would validate everything he did in this situation. I'm not having it. 

Also, why Arthur Dayne, of all people? Why would she choose him? He was Rhaegar's best friend and closest confidant! Not only that but he literally died following Rhaegar's orders, Why would either of them do this? I don't see this pairing at all. 

RE: the pact of ice and fire, that is a good point, but I was thinking of the people that are actually alive right now (well....Aemon is not alive right now, but he was still in the main books lol).  

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