Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

It's here.

 

 

 

That's the one thanks and pretty unambiguous - indeed unusually unambiguous, which suggests its waaay off base.

[Sly Wren]

On February 6, 2019 at 11:02 PM, JNR said:

There's a visual parallel.  But consider how sharp it is:

If weirwood could be sharpened to such a fine and indestructible edge as Dawn, I'm sure it would have been -- over and over for thousands of years, and the Andals would probably have failed in their invasion as a result.  Steel would never have stood up.

Sorry for the massive delay.

As for the sharpness--regular weirwood, transformed. That Black Gate is a living thing--i think it's the heart tree of the fallen Night's King. The heart of a fallen "Stark." 

Dawn, too, glows, alive with light. We have a few hints in the novels of swords with "souls"--the tale of Lightbringer, for instance. If Dawn, like weirwood, is "alive"--a transformed, forged weirwood. . . that would fit.

And I agree--steel, especially real world steel, could not make it thousands of years.

Quote

Yet there are no other blades like Dawn.   This IMO is because of its unique origin (the meteorite) which is not replicable.

Or because Dawn was forged a particular way. 

There is an outside chance that there used to be more swords: Dany has that dream of the ghosts with the swords of pale flame. I think those are all leaders, holding the same sword in succession. But they may be multiples. 

As for the meteorite, the OCD part of my brain once took me over and I searched the term "fallen star" in the novels. In the main novels, the term never refers to an actual fallen star. It only refers to Dawn, fires in the night, and great men who have fallen.

Seems like there may be a reason for that literary trend.

On February 7, 2019 at 1:26 PM, JNR said:

...would evidently be aware of something his conscious mind was not -- that Dawn once was truly a source of light.

Or that it still is--like the Black Gate. A living sword. A living flame. A light in the darkness that wakes the sleepers:

Bran heard fingers fumbling at leather, followed by the sound of steel on flint. Then again. A spark flew, caught. Osha blew softly. A long pale flame awoke, stretching upward like a girl on her toes. [snip] The light woke Rickon, who sat up yawning. Clash, Bran VII

A sword of pale flame, forged from the heart tree of a fallen Stark.

[Sly Wren]

On February 9, 2019 at 1:54 PM, JNR said:

We could even extrapolate that "Dayne" is how the word "dawn" was once pronounced, long ago.  All it requires is a vowel shift.

Or a mongrelization of "Day's King." King of Day. The one who brought down the Night's King.

[St Daga]

8 hours ago, JNR said:

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I have a recollection of an SSM in which GRRM denied that dragonbone went into the forging of Valyrian steel, but can't quote chapter and verse.

It's here.

Thank you! 

 

5 hours ago, JNR said:

It's an idiom, but Ned certainly means Dawn was created from a chunk of rock that contained ore that could be forged.

Notice that he spells it out: forged.  He knows what forging is all about. 

Ned's world certainly contains steel, and he seems quite familiar with metalworking in general.  Mikken, at Winterfell, reports to him; he investigates Tobho Mott's armory in AGOT and is shocked by nothing he sees. 

So when he says Dawn was forged, he means it is metal.

Well, in the text, forge isn't always used to describe the making of metal like items. Sometimes it's used to explain the process a maester goes through at the Citadel, and I don't think the reference is in making the links to a Maester's chain, but in earning it. Forging doesn't necessarily mean to work with metal, although in the case that GRRM is using to talk about Valyrian steel, it might be. Forge is used to describe the Pact between the First Men and the CotF, and it's used to describe the writing of a letter, so "forging" isn't as clear cut as it might seem. 

 

8 hours ago, JNR said:

What makes you think that?  I can recall one such instance, but it isn't recent.

Well, this last fall, I was looking for two specific things that I knew I had read previously in the SSM's but could find neither. One was the comments that Parris had made about RLJ and honestly the other I can't think of right now. But today I did attempt to look for the Parris comments again, and I did find it. The comments about RLJ  being "basic" (although I honestly think it was worded differently than I found today) So, perhaps last fall I just didn't look hard enough. But it seems like they have been reordered or organized a bit differently, and the error was that I wasn't looking in the correct place. Purge was certainly an overly strong word to use, but "cleaned up" feels to much like Clorox was dumped on them. I wish I could think of the other thing I was looking for. I know I made notes about them but can't find the notes now. I really wish I could, because perhaps I could find the answer in the SSM's like I had hoped last fall. It seems like the problem might have been my own search malfunction, not the SSM's themselves! 

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Dawn, too, glows, alive with light.

Well, it does in Ned's fever dream.  Do you mean it also glows like this literally, and currently, in a way anyone can see looking at it? 

I would be very surprised, because no other reference to Dawn mentions such an extraordinary quality.  For instance, the Smiling Knight said he wanted the "white" sword as opposed to the "glowing" sword, and Jaime recalls Dawn's sharpness, but not that it emitted light.

Actually, Ned didn't mention Dawn glowing either, to Bran, in describing Dawn when he was conscious.

So I think Dawn is "alive with light" only in the same way blue eyes are "the eyes of death" and the sky above the TOJ was "blood-streaked."   These are surrealistic aspects of his dream as opposed to literal traits drawn from reality.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Well, in the text, forge isn't always used to describe the making of metal like items.

The context in this case is quite specific, though.  Ned was talking about Dawn being forged from a meteorite.

It's very hard for me to believe Ned would say this about Dawn, if after spending many days examining it on the way to Starfall he had observed Dawn was made out of weirwood, dragonbone, or anything else organic.

It's also, as I'm sure GRRM is aware, not just a fact that blades were forged from meteoric metal in our world, but also a long tradition in fantasy. One example would be Anglachel from the LOTRverse.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

But today I did attempt to look for the Parris comments again, and I did find it. The comments about RLJ  being "basic" (although I honestly think it was worded differently than I found today)

She also said "George doesn't do obvious," on this subject, and of course she's right about that.  But that's from a mod post, as opposed to an SSM.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I wish I could think of the other thing I was looking for. I know I made notes about them but can't find the notes now.

The one I had in mind was a list of estimated character heights as written by GRRM in response to an e-mail inquiry.  I recall specific numbers for various characters, but I can no longer find the link and I don't believe it's there.

[The Chequered Raven]

On 2/8/2019 at 2:50 PM, lalt said:

With that been said, the myth of Azor Ahai and the prophecy tell us that Lightbringer should be a red sword. And a feiry one.
Dawn is white and surely not fiery.

See the actual Dawn as the former, bright red burning, Lightbringer, whose "Fire" has nearly gone out, just leaving a dim, white glow..
Compare it with a once bright burning log, then becoming a orange glowing piece of charcoal, and then the charcoal is coverd with white ash, nearly gone out, just slowly glowing in the inside...

Could it be "reanimated"?
Or must it be reforged?

[The Chequered Raven]

On 2/9/2019 at 5:17 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Or perhaps a comet.  But yes I agree, we don’t have any reason to think that a prophecy about the forging of a sword is in fact actually about the forging of a sword.  Most prophecies seem to work more symbolically and less literally.  

If a sword = a person, then how do you forge a person?  It seems that there are two ways to forge a person: nature and nurture.  You forge a person through nature by attempting to bring together certain bloodlines/genes.  In other words a blacksmith may be someone who arranges certain marriages or perhaps entices people with certain bloodlines with paid dalliances with prostitutes with certain bloodlines.

And you forge someone through nurture by teaching them, and molding their personality.  Perhaps a parent, or a teacher, or even a torturer.  Someone who tries to mold an individual a certain way.

I don’t think that it’s any coincidence that the person who took Jon under his wing to try and make him a better person at the Wall was Donal Noye, a blacksmith.

Interesting thought!

If Jon is Lightbringer 2.0, so how is his forging-process?
First attempt: water
Ned brought Jon via ship over WATER to Winterfell. During this voyage the original boy (whoever he was, Rhaegar/Lyannason or whomever) "died" and is "reborn" as Jon Snow, bastard son of Ned Stark.
A little bit a far fetch - any better ideas...???

Secand attempt: ice
Easy! Jon is send/gone to the Wall, and the boy Jon Snow "died" to become the Lord Commander (kill the boy and let the man be born...)

So this leads to the third attempt: blood!
Will Jon has to kill someone? His Wife? If so, who will be his wife...???
Or should we take the "wife" not literal, and he has to "kill" somethging he holds very dear?
He has already "killed" the Nightwatch...

Any ideas / thoughts?

 

---

 

Oh shit, I confused the second attempt, it's a lion instead of ice...
So this shatters my nice theory into cracked pottery, I guess.

Well, errare humanum est.

[The Chequered Raven]

On 2/9/2019 at 5:51 PM, JNR said:

He thinks Lightbringer is a literal sword.

Yes, he THINKS!

Thinking is not knowing...
Aemon could be wrong in his thinking, as any actually living person at Planetos he has not seen the original Lightbringer, just read and studied the prophecies.

And he has been mislead by prophesioes in the past, remember the "Prince that was promised", he as well thought many years it must be a prince, and only the existence of Dany and her dragons convinced him the prince must be a princes!

[JNR]

5 hours ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Yes, he THINKS!

Thinking is not knowing...

In the case of Dawn, we're talking about Ned thinking that metal is metal, after looking at it for days and days as he returns it to Starfall.  There's no deduction involved.  Just recognition.

Could Ned stare at a sword made of weirwood or dragonbone... for an extended period of time... and at the end of it not recognize it as weirwood or dragonbone?  And be fooled into thinking it is metal?

5 hours ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Aemon could be wrong in his thinking, as any actually living person at Planetos he has not seen the original Lightbringer, just read and studied the prophecies.

Sure, he could.  However, his knowledge of the prophecies certainly trumps ours.  He's read them and we haven't.

In this case, he appears to be confident of the type of thing Lightbringer is -- a sword -- and it's just a question of which sword it will turn out to be, if another Lightbringer rolls along at all.

Similarly, in the case of the PtwP, he was quite sure of the type of thing it was -- a person -- and it's just a question of which person it will turn out to be.

If Aemon were told "Lightbringer is the Night's Watch, which means you've been part of Lightbringer for multiple decades now, Maester Aemon," I think he would get a good chuckle out of that, and correctly surmise we have never read the source material about Lightbringer that he has.

[Janneyc1]

11 hours ago, JNR said:

So I think Dawn is "alive with light" only in the same way blue eyes are "the eyes of death" and the sky above the TOJ was "blood-streaked."   These are surrealistic aspects of his dream as opposed to literal traits drawn from reality.

I disagree. Ned is the kind of guy that wouldn't take a dead man's sword and then analyze it and study it. IMO, the only time that he would be able to see that it was "alive with light" was when he was fighting Ser Arthur Dayne. I think he is just remembering the sun shining off of the white blade. 

 

In regards to the bleeding star, perhaps the process takes place at Starfall? if you look at the heraldry, it could look like a star was bleeding and the Daynes are old enough to have been around during the last Long Night. There is also an abundance of salt water nearby and smoke can be made literally anywhere. Perhaps there is a cave system that the leader from the Last Hero or AA was born in. We see it at Storm's End, why not Starfall? 

[St Daga]

10 hours ago, JNR said:

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Dawn, too, glows, alive with light.

Well, it does in Ned's fever dream.  Do you mean it also glows like this literally, and currently, in a way anyone can see looking at it? 

I would be very surprised, because no other reference to Dawn mentions such an extraordinary quality.  For instance, the Smiling Knight said he wanted the "white" sword as opposed to the "glowing" sword, and Jaime recalls Dawn's sharpness, but not that it emitted light.

Actually, Ned didn't mention Dawn glowing either, to Bran, in describing Dawn when he was conscious.

So I think Dawn is "alive with light" only in the same way blue eyes are "the eyes of death" and the sky above the TOJ was "blood-streaked."   These are surrealistic aspects of his dream as opposed to literal traits drawn from reality.

I am of a belief that Dawn did become "alive with light" at some point, and Eddard saw that. I know we get that description from his fever dream but some aspects should be correct. In the same way that he might have seen someone with blue eyes that reminded him of death (the Others or wights), why can't the sword Dawn have the properties of the blades of the Other's, at least the blade of the Other that dueled Waymar is described as very similar to our descriptions of Dawn. I actually think that the blade called to Eddard (by becoming alive with light) and that is why SAD had a sad smile on his face; because he knows his time as SotM is almost up. The blade has chosen someone new... but that, of course, is like tinfoil that is alive with light...

I also think the "blood streaked sky" could indicate either the sky at dawn or dusk, a red tinged sky, especially if smoke was involved from a burning tower. I suppose we can debate ourselves in circles about what aspects of the toj fever dream are real, are surreal, or are a combination of two or three different happening, or a reality mixed with a vision.

Quote

 

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

 

Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

 

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

 

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

 

The pale sword came shivering through the air. AGOT-Prologue

 

 

 

The descriptions are very similar. Dawn is noted to be a white blade (which I think it is most of the time) or also it is described as pale. both from Jaime's POV and the World Book. In the above case, the Other's blade is alive with "moonlight" which is interesting, as perhaps it is the moonlight that has some connection with Dawn. There are so many descriptions in the text of the dawn being pale or having different colors associated with the first light of dawn. It is also described as crystal that is so thin, it is like a razor, which fit's Jaime's remembrance of Dawn which was so thin and sharp, it cut through his tunic and made him bleed from a tap on the shoulder. Will tells us that the Other's blade was forged with "no human metal", and it's wielder has blue eyes "that burned like ice" which could very well fit the description of Eddard's fever dream. I think what we see in the toj from Ned's fever dream and the prologue to our story are very similar.

 

My initial thoughts years ago on the Dawn blade were that it was the weapon of the Other's. If that weapon was once wielded by a Stark who "fell" or died or was defeated, could that not be seen as a forging? Like maester's forge their education, the Pact that was forged between the FM and the CotF, the idea of using Lord Eddard to forge a peace between the Stark's and Lannister's until Joffrey fooked it up, forging a letter as it the wording is used once in the text. I just don't think that Dawn was really a chunk of meteorite, although it could be. I think it's more likely to be the sword of an Other. Although I do wonder if Ned's description and Bran's description of the "forging" of Dawn are based on Old Nan's stories, or common tales told about Dawn, or even the concept that a sword must be forged when that might not be the truth, and is therefore something that is repeated.

 

Dawn and Valyrian steel are said to be similar in sharpness and strength and weight, but they are obviously different. It seems like magic from Valyria, the Lands of the Long Summer are part of forging these blades and once Valyria was lost, the ability to forge a blade such as this was lost. Yes, it can be reworked, but it's not starting from scratch. What if Dawn mimic's this idea, but in an opposite manner. What if it was forged in the cold of the Lands of Always Winter, and when the magic of the Other's was lost, then the ability to forge such a blade as Dawn was lost with it. But, now that cold is returning, the Other's are returning, and I wonder if we might see a reforging of the Dawn blade. Over the last year or so I have come to think that Dawn is broken, and was broken in SAD and Eddard's duel at the toj, so perhaps like Valyrian steel that can be reworked by Tobho Mott (or someone with similar skills or magic spells), Dawn might be able to be reworked? If Dawn is the blade of an Other, it is noted to be like crystal, so it might not be made of metal at all!

 

11 hours ago, JNR said:

The context in this case is quite specific, though.  Ned was talking about Dawn being forged from a meteorite.

It's very hard for me to believe Ned would say this about Dawn, if after spending many days examining it on the way to Starfall he had observed Dawn was made out of weirwood, dragonbone, or anything else organic.

It's also, as I'm sure GRRM is aware, not just a fact that blades were forged from meteoric metal in our world, but also a long tradition in fantasy. One example would be Anglachel from the LOTRverse.

We never hear Ned say that Dawn is forged from a meteorite, or even a fallen star. That is something that Bran thinks about in conjunction with Ned talking about Ser Arthur Dayne, but what if Bran has jumbled, confused or misremembered the actual words that Ned said? An interpretation of "fallen star" has become a meteorite for many readers, but that might not be the correct interpretation for "fallen star". Even if what fell from the sky is what the Dawn sword is made of, it is more likely the debris of a comet. A comet can be seen for days, weeks, month's sometimes, and that would fit the myth better of being able to track a "fallen star". Comet's are made mostly of ice, so if a giant chunk of ice hit the earth, it would be a very bad day, it might even bring on a nuclear winter or "a long night". Now, I don't necessarily think this is what happened, but the idea of tracking a fallen star for some distance fit's the idea of a comet in the sky and not a meteorite, which is usually a fairly quick flash of light. However,

I am more inclined to think that  GRRM is working with metaphor's in this case, and I think "fallen star" is just as likely to be "a fallen Stark" as a object from the sky. I am sure someday we will get an answer for this, but until we get more text on the subject, one idea is as likely as the other. Or, the Dawn sword belonged to an Other, and it was claimed by someone of House Dayne at the end of the Long Night. Claiming the blade of a defeated enemy who was associated with night might make a person rename their new blade something that comes at the end of a night, which would be dawn.

And while fantasy blades have certainly been made of material of the cosmos, I am not sure if that is what GRRM is doing. That idea would certainly fit a trope in fantasy writing, but GRRM is about twisting or redefining such tropes, so I don't know if he would go with a blade forged from metal from outer space. Time will tell, I hope...

 

 

[JNR]

19 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I think he is just remembering the sun shining off of the white blade. 

It's certainly possible. 

However, in this case, Dawn doesn't glow in in the same way as the Black Gate at all, because if you put Dawn in a dark place, it would not emit any light. So the case for Dawn being enchanted weirwood like the Black Gate would be pretty thin.

The other problem with Dawn being enchanted weirwood is the one I brought up before.  If it were possible to turn weirwood  into Dawnlike blades, it would have happened on a mass scale thousands of years before.

I would expect the CotF to have been equipped with Dawnlike daggers in fighting the First Men, and I would also expect the First Men to have been equipped with Dawnlike swords in fighting the Andals (and to have beaten the Andals)... and yet there sure doesn't seem to be even one other example of a Dawnlike blade at all.

[JNR]

1 minute ago, St Daga said:

I am of a belief that Dawn did become "alive with light" at some point, and Eddard saw that. I know we get that description from his fever dream but some aspects should be correct.

In that case, it's very odd he didn't tell Bran about Dawn being a magically glowing sword, while conscious, and that no one else in canon has ever described Dawn in this way. 

If a sword emitted its own light, that would be a clearly supernatural property and I'd expect it to command a great deal of attention. 

You're right the dream seems to be mix of accurate and surreal elements.  It's actually loaded with both; Ned's companions are said to be wraiths, but they weren't wraiths in real life.  Ned's dream features a storm of blue rose petals, but there certainly wasn't any such storm, nor could there possibly be.   Etc.

5 minutes ago, St Daga said:

We never hear Ned say that Dawn is forged from a meteorite, or even a fallen star. That is something that Bran thinks about in conjunction with Ned talking about Ser Arthur Dayne, but what if Bran has jumbled, confused or misremembered the actual words that Ned said? 

Faintly possible, but if Bran jumbled or confused it, it seems remarkably coincidental that the Dayne family seat is named "Starfall," and that the Dayne family sigil is a falling star and a sword.

I think Bran remembers what Ned said correctly.

 

[St Daga]

12 minutes ago, JNR said:

In that case, it's very odd he didn't tell Bran about Dawn being a magically glowing sword, while conscious, and that no one else in canon has ever described Dawn in this way. 

If a sword emitted its own light, that would be a clearly supernatural property and I'd expect it to command a great deal of attention. 

Well, I don't think the sword emits light all of the time. I think it being near a Stark, or because of something that was going on in or near the toj, caused the sword to become "alive with light". In this case, most of the time, Dawn would look like a white sword, shiny but with no light effects, but in a very rare instance, the blade becomes something different.

As to why Ned might not tell this to Bran, perhaps he himself didn't believe what he saw, or doesn't have that recollection in his waking life, only in his dream life! 

15 minutes ago, JNR said:

Faintly possible, but if Bran jumbled or confused it, it seems remarkably coincidental that the Dayne family seat is named "Starfall," and that the Dayne family sigil is a falling star and a sword.

I think Bran remembers what Ned said correctly.

Well, the whole concept of the name of Starfall could be based on a myth that is perhaps not correct. Or it's actually Stark-fall, or something else. Names or spelling could change as language changes or evolves, and 10,000 years or even 2,000 years is a long time in the course of language development.

As to Bran remembering correctly or not, I can only think of how Bran thinks, seems certain even, that his grandfather Rickard was beheaded, when we know that is not what happened to Rickard Stark, (unless we might find some day that the fire didn't kill Rickard Stark, only damaged him, but his final death was by beheading, but that seems unlikely). Bran is a seven year old boy at the start of this story, and one that is fascinated by stories and knights and honor and valor. And a lot of stories that he heard Old Nan tell, the same stories that the Neddard no doubt heard as a child before being shipped off to the vale. Bran could be just as unreliable as a narrator as any of our other characters.

[Janneyc1]

14 minutes ago, JNR said:

The other problem with Dawn being enchanted weirwood is the one I brought up before.  If it were possible to turn weirwood  into Dawnlike blades, it would have happened on a mass scale thousands of years before.

I would expect either the CotF to have been equipped with Dawnlike daggers in fighting the First Men, and I would expect the First Men to have been equipped with Dawnlike swords in fighting the Andals (and to have beaten the Andals)... and yet there sure doesn't seem to be even one other example of a Dawnlike blade at all.

Agreed, This is why I think that Valyrian Steel was supposed to be a copy of Dawn or at least the forging process behind the creation of Dawn, but it is imperfect. It explains the attempts to produce it, as well as the lack of replication. My guess is that the method that went into forging Dawn was considered an abomination. It produced Dawn, but it had a terrible price. That is why it was only made once and never again, likely due to the sacrifices that goes into the making the blade. 

In fact, while we have made connections to weirwood, it also connects to the First Men philosophy of execution. "He who passes the sentence should swing the sword" is good moral advice, but if the goal of that logic was to spare the executor the moral anguish of killing someone, why are the First Men so war-like? Everything in FM culture is about fighting or surviving. Their culture literally doesn't make room for feelings, except for when they execute someone. I think it relates back to the creation of Dawn (Which almost certainly had to be made by FM). They may have "charged up" the sword by executing people, similarly to how people are executed in front of weirwoods. 

[JNR]

34 minutes ago, St Daga said:

As to why Ned might not tell this to Bran, perhaps he himself didn't believe what he saw, or doesn't have that recollection in his waking life, only in his dream life!

That's just the case I'm making too, though -- that the glowing is only something from his dream, and when he's awake that is really not how he recalls Dawn.

36 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Or it's actually Stark-fall, or something else. Names or spelling could change as language changes or evolves, and 10,000 years or even 2,000 years is a long time in the course of language development.

We agree here, too.  However, the case you're making presumes that the name "Stark" did not change elsewhere -- that it has continually been remembered as "Stark" except at Starfall, where, uniquely, the k was somehow dropped.  

So this seems to mean the dropped K and the falling star sigil are two different things that, by chance,  yield the illusion that Starfall is a place where a meteorite fell.

Well, that could be.  But I think it's much simpler to imagine there was a meteorite, its metal was unique and could not be recreated and never was, and the K was never dropped from Stark, anywhere in Westeros.  And Starfall is called Starfall because of the meteorite, and the Dayne sigil reflects both that meteorite and the sword.

40 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Bran could be just as unreliable as a narrator as any of our other characters.

And indeed will turn out to be.  Because I don't think Rhaegar carried off and raped Lyanna, as Bran claims.

42 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

This is why I think that Valyrian Steel was supposed to be a copy of Dawn or at least the forging process behind the creation of Dawn, but it is imperfect. It explains the attempts to produce it, as well as the lack of replication.

This is plausible, yeah.  It would obviously require Dawn to be so famous as to inspire smiths in Valyria, far away, but we do have some hints or reason to think Valyrians traded with Westeros long ago. 

Oldtown was then the primary city and trading port on the continent at that time, and Oldtown is not very far from Starfall.  So I can imagine Valyrian traders hearing the legend of Dawn and its properties, and I wouldn't be shocked if they took back that legend to Valyria.

One more tidbit about Dawn comes from the World book:

Quote

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

Now this is obviously a bit sketchier than canon; it just means the above is what Maester Yandel has read or has been told. 

But I would guess it's accurate. Dawn is quite famous in Westeros and if Yandel has read or been told this, I think it's probably true.   And if Dawn is exactly like Valyrian steel except in the pale color and the lack of ripples, that seems to imply it is, like Valyrian steel, a form of metal.  It just doesn't seem to be the same metal, or if it is, it's not forged in the same way.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

As to why Ned might not tell this to Bran, perhaps he himself didn't believe what he saw, or doesn't have that recollection in his waking life, only in his dream life!

That's just the case I'm making too, though -- that the glowing is only something from his dream, and when he's awake that is really not how he recalls Dawn.

I explained myself poorly. I think that the glowing sword, "alive with light" happened, but for some reason, Ned's conscious thought blocks his memory of it, perhaps of many of the details that culminate in his toj/fever dream. PTSD of a sort. I think something that happened there was so awful, that he doesn't want to remember. Or his memory was stripped from him for some reason, but I can't see why this would be.

Ned's reaction to Jaime's order to "kill his men" on the street in Kings Landing is so raw, so real, that I think it reminds him of something in the past that was just as upsetting to him. ""No", Ned screamed..." is a pretty visceral reaction, I think. This situation of Jaime and Ned is another odd parallel to the toj, just as I see Waymar's battle with the Other as a parallel.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

We agree here, too.  However, the case you're making presumes that the name "Stark" did not change elsewhere -- that it has continually been remembered as "Stark" except at Starfall, where, uniquely, the k was somehow dropped.  

So this seems to mean the dropped K and the falling star sigil are two different things that, by chance,  yield the illusion that Starfall is a place where a meteorite fell.

You make a good point about the star and Stark idea. Why the difference of the K, and why would this be the only change. I don't have a good explanation for this, but I am now wondering if perhaps Star was a name, just  as Starfall was, but a K was added to the name of a son of the House of Starfall, as a way to separate or distinguish the difference. Perhaps it was even a form of punishment or banishment? We do see something similar (without the punishment or banishment) with House Karstark and GreyStark, only the addition is to the front of the word and not the back of it. This is a very new and loose thought for me, but perhaps House Stark is a cadat branch from the House of Star whose home is Starfall. Maybe at the time of the split. It also makes me think a bit of Dark Star, who could become Darkstar, or the Star that was Dark, Star(dar)K. Perhaps there is something very special if Dark Star does claim the Dawn sword? Claim it and keep it and wield it?

Of course, this tinfoil I just spouted above doesn't help with with my idea's of Stark meaning strong, and it is the Stark seed that is strong in our story. 

Also what if the Dayne sigil is based on the myth, not an actual truth. Did sigil's exist 10,000 years ago? A sigil based on a story that is a myth and the white sword itself. Purple could be a tie back to the color of the eyes of the family, or something else in the idea of the sword and star? More loose thoughts that I really haven't thought much on.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

I think it's much simpler to imagine there was a meteorite, its metal was unique and could not be recreated and never was, and the K was never dropped from Stark, anywhere in Westeros.  And Starfall is called Starfall because of the meteorite, and the Dayne sigil reflects both that meteorite and the sword.

Dawn might very well have been forged from a fallen chunk of metal and made into a one of a kind sword. That is a plausible explanation, and if it turns out to be the case, I won't be surprised. I also think it's plausible to think that Dawn is a sword that was taken as a trophy after the war for the Dawn, hence the name of the newly claimed sword. I would not be surprised by this outcome either! The similarities between Dawn and the sword of the Other who fought Waymar are too similar for me to not speculate they are related, or the exact same type of sword.

Quote

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. His descendants ruled over the western mountains for centuries thereafter as Kings of the Torrentine and Lords of Starfall. TWOIAF- Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

One part of the story about Dawn that is hard for me to associate with a meteorite is the idea that the "first Dayne" followed, tracked, a meteorite. A meteorite flashes for but a moment, and then it is gone, and it's not something a person could follow from a distance (although it would leave an impact crater), where as a comet is something that can be tracked/followed, and tracked/followed from a distance. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what Dany does after her dragons are hatched. She follows the red comet in the sky. So, it makes more sense to me that if a Dayne followed something, it was a comet, and most comet's are made of ice (although they can also have bits of rock, dust and gas), and don't survive impact, or if there is impact, it's pretty bad for the area of impact. However, the idea of a star of ice falling does have nice little hint's of a Stark tradition of naming their family sword Ice. It's hard for me to think the Dayne's and Stark's are not somehow connected, just like Day and Dark is connected in a Yin/Yang type of balance, or day and night. I am more than likely incorrect, but I can't seem to see it any differently, which is probably exactly how you feel about Dawn being made from a fallen meteorite and forged into a one of kind sword. Or it's a good story to explain how a human got the sword of an Other!  The debate is great and we certainly don't have to agree! 

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

One part of the story about Dawn that is hard for me to associate with a meteorite is the idea that the "first Dayne" followed, tracked, a meteorite. A meteorite flashes for but a moment, and then it is gone, and it's not something a person could follow from a distance (although it would leave an impact crater), where as a comet is something that can be tracked/followed, and tracked/followed from a distance. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what Dany does after her dragons are hatched. She follows the red comet in the sky. So, it makes more sense to me that if a Dayne followed something, it was a comet, and most comet's are made of ice (although they can also have bits of rock, dust and gas), and don't survive impact, or if there is impact, it's pretty bad for the area of impact. However, the idea of a star of ice falling does have nice little hint's of a Stark tradition of naming their family sword Ice. It's hard for me to think the Dayne's and Stark's are not somehow connected, just like Day and Dark is connected in a Yin/Yang type of balance, or day and night. I am more than likely incorrect, but I can't seem to see it any differently, which is probably exactly how you feel about Dawn being made from a fallen meteorite and forged into a one of kind sword. Or it's a good story to explain how a human got the sword of an Other!  The debate is great and we certainly don't have to agree! 

One thought I have had is that if a "star" did fall there, there should be some fairly extreme destruction there. Yet the landscape seems to be fairly normal, which lands itself to a more figurative narrative for the location of Starfall. Perhaps we get some Dany parallels in the Red Waste? In other words, the first Dayne tracked a visible comet that seemed to end at Starfall. Perhaps he found something there to help make Dawn? 

[Brad Stark]

Any idea why Old Town is where it is?  Shouldn't a trading port be on the East coast? 

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

One part of the story about Dawn that is hard for me to associate with a meteorite is the idea that the "first Dayne" followed, tracked, a meteorite. A meteorite flashes for but a moment, and then it is gone, and it's not something a person could follow from a distance (although it would leave an impact crater), where as a comet is something that can be tracked/followed, and tracked/followed from a distance. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what Dany does after her dragons are hatched. She follows the red comet in the sky. So, it makes more sense to me that if a Dayne followed something, it was a comet, and most comet's are made of ice (although they can also have bits of rock, dust and gas), and don't survive impact, or if there is impact, it's pretty bad for the area of impact. However, the idea of a star of ice falling does have nice little hint's of a Stark tradition of naming their family sword Ice. It's hard for me to think the Dayne's and Stark's are not somehow connected, just like Day and Dark is connected in a Yin/Yang type of balance, or day and night. I am more than likely incorrect, but I can't seem to see it any differently, which is probably exactly how you feel about Dawn being made from a fallen meteorite and forged into a one of kind sword. Or it's a good story to explain how a human got the sword of an Other!  The debate is great and we certainly don't have to agree! 

A significant impact would be seen a very long distance away, even if it only lasted a minute. Comets are seen for so long because they are so far away, if one hit the Earth it would be gone just as quickly.