Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

[Janneyc1]

24 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Any idea why Old Town is where it is?  Shouldn't a trading port be on the East coast? 

I have wondered this too. It is protected, but it is harder to get there. Isn't it said that Old Town was old when the FM crossed? Or was it the Andals? either way, it is OLD. And there is the bit about Dragon's roosting on Battle Isle. 

 

Anyways, I am betting there was a bit of continental drift and that traders could get to Oldtown by sailing through the ocean West of Westeros. It also makes a good stopping port before stopping over in Lannisport. 

[JNR]

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think that the glowing sword, "alive with light" happened, but for some reason, Ned's conscious thought blocks his memory of it, perhaps of many of the details that culminate in his toj/fever dream. PTSD of a sort.

If he found his sister dying there, it's easy to see why he would experience PTSD.  In fact, there's direct support for missing memories, of a sort, here:

Quote

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

However, there would have to be a very good explanation for why Dawn glowed then and only then, since there is no myth or legend about Dawn doing this that I know of, in the thousands of years it's been part of the story of House Dayne, that we have heard so far...

...unless, of course, we count the myth of the last hero with "dragonsteel," and we imagine that was Dawn, burning and therefore glowing, near the end of the Long Night.  Which I think will prove the case.

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

The similarities between Dawn and the sword of the Other who fought Waymar are too similar for me to not speculate they are related, or the exact same type of sword. 

Well, they're both very sharp, but I think the Other's sword is fundamentally distinct.  It is, for instance, explicitly said to be made of crystal... not made of any human metal... and virtually two-dimensional:

Quote

No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on.

This description establishes its supernatural origin and nature pretty thoroughly, for me.

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

or if there is impact, it's pretty bad for the area of impact

Most meteorites that land are quite small; they break up in the atmosphere before any chunks hit.  We're not talking about asteroids or comets, but more like this.

That one was a weensy 61 grams and didn't make it through the roof.  The ones that have been mined for meteoric iron were bigger, but not monsters by any means.  A few are big enough to kill people, but not many, but quite a few are easy to see and track as they fall, because they look like this.

If I had to guess, I would say the Starfall meteorite was not huge and did not create a devastating impact, because to do that, it would have to be massive, and if it had contained much mass, and ore, there would be more Dawnlike blades -- or at least myths or legends of such blades (of which there are none I recall).

[JNR]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Any idea why Old Town is where it is?  Shouldn't a trading port be on the East coast?

I think the odds are very good it is where it is because it was originally settled by people who came not by land, but by sea. 

The southern Dornish coast is not very hospitable:

Quote

The Dornish coast is dry and bleak, four hundred leagues of whirlpools, cliffs, and hidden shoals with hardly a safe landing anywhere.

...but the Oldtown area offers a fine natural harbor.

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

I have wondered this too. It is protected, but it is harder to get there. Isn't it said that Old Town was old when the FM crossed? Or was it the Andals? either way, it is OLD. And there is the bit about Dragon's roosting on Battle Isle. 

 

Anyways, I am betting there was a bit of continental drift and that traders could get to Oldtown by sailing through the ocean West of Westeros. It also makes a good stopping port before stopping over in Lannisport. 

It is old, and the base of hightower is the old strange black rock we've seen other places.  Really makes me wonder if there was trade across the sunset sea.

[dialt]

Sorry if I am going to move back the debate, but I feel some replies - even if late - are due. 

On 2/8/2019 at 6:11 PM, Matthew. said:

I don't disagree with the points you raise throughout your post, as I rarely favor having just a single explanation for open questions; a consolidation of Dawn/Lightbringer/dragonsteel is not the only theory I like, it's just where my current expectations and inclinations lay.

My take on Lightbringer being a red sword of heroes is that the name is evoking the idea of it being red with Nissa Nissa's blood, as well as its function as a firebrand, but does not necessarily describe the default coloring of the metal alloy.

[....]

My more crackpot theory is that Ice will eventually be reforged as one blade

And I don't disagree with yours. It's that my current inclinations (nice choice of words, by the way) lay on the idea that the Devil is quite often in the details.

Therefore, I suspect that the pattern may be: Lightbringer (a sword, a person, a dragon, something else) = a "sunny" figure, red and flaming like the sun-rising, like that precise phenomenon in physics that precedes dawn itself, like "Ausus" to use the latin definition of that phenomenon and whose etymology = something red and burning; Dawn white as the light of day, like dawn itself (in latin, dawn = alba lux = white light).

If so, and more pecisaly if LB is a person, then he/she may use Dawn to fight... or not. Dawn may be a symbol of what must be reached, protected. Of a new era. That because it's the burning red sun that defeats the night and brings/fathers dawn (so much so that its champion is called "The Sword of the Morning" not "the Knight that lead us in the night", etc...). It's a 50%-50% bet to me,

That said, I do believe that Ice will be reforged as a single sword regardless all of this, but if by chance I am right, then even more so, I'd say.

On 2/9/2019 at 5:17 PM, Frey family reunion said:

If a sword = a person, then how do you forge a person?  It seems that there are two ways to forge a person: nature and nurture.  You forge a person through nature by attempting to bring together certain bloodlines/genes.  In other words a blacksmith may be someone who arranges certain marriages or perhaps entices people with certain bloodlines with paid dalliances with prostitutes with certain bloodlines.

And you forge someone through nurture by teaching them, and molding their personality.  Perhaps a parent, or a teacher, or even a torturer.  Someone who tries to mold an individual a certain way.

I don’t think that it’s any coincidence that the person who took Jon under his wing to try and make him a better person at the Wall was Donal Noye, a blacksmith.

Yeah, that and the fact iitself that Jon ended up living in Donal's quarters. But there's more than that...

AA was a blacksmith and we should keep in mind that Ygritte associated Jon to the "red star" the free folk calls The Thief that in the Seven Kingdoms goes by the name of... The Smith.

Add to it that Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna. We may believe or not the official version of that story, but maybe he did that in "free folk" terms.

 

 

[dialt]

On 2/10/2019 at 5:48 PM, St Daga said:

This information on milk glass is interesting, especially the idea that bone ash is used in the process. Thanks for triggering this line of thought, as I had never considered it before.  If Dawn is made of milkglass, does that mean it's made of a special person or beings bones?

[...]

Other things in the story that are associated with milkglass are the "ghost grass" of the Dothraki sea, bottles that hold maester's medicines and the bones of the Other that Samwell killed, the bones of which seemed to dissolve into a mist. Could the bones of the Other's OR the ghost grass be a part of making Dawn? Is there a hint in the idea that this white glass is used for medicine (perhaps hinting at magic)?

 

On 2/10/2019 at 5:48 PM, St Daga said:

Can you turn dragonbone into ash? Does it ever breakdown to that state? I don't know if it does. We have several mentions of dragonbone, all black so far, and hard and shiny. But no signs of ash. But I suppose a person could beat at it until it forms into smaller particles. I used to think that dragonbone could be melted in a forge and that process helped to form Valyrian steel, but now I really doubt any forge could get hot enough to change the consistency of dragonbone. But maybe it can! Maybe other dragons are needed to heat a forge high enough to melt or dissolve or breakdown dragonglass?

Like I said I don't have a precise idea/theory. That fact surely caught my attention and I am thinking about it. Whrere it may lead. But I am not sure of anything.

And I don't know if dragon bones can be melted to the point of becoming ashes. But if so, then I think it doesn't matter that the dragon bones are black, because the ashes will be grey/white regarless. I mean, this is how it goes if you burn something black or red, blue, whatever... ashes are white/grey.

That said... I am more incline to think that the weirwood trees may be the key. Especially because there was not iron, there was not steel during the Long Night  - so I don't think dragonsteel is valyrian steel - but there were weirwood trees. 

And so far we know about 2 things that can become petrified: dragon eggs and weirwood trees. And we are told so many times that weirwood trees are white like bones and red like blood.

In short I see a parallel between dragons/weirwoods. 

In addition.... there is a Coldhands quote that I keep thinking about. 

"Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man’s blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals.” His voice rattled in his throat, as thin and gaunt as he was. “His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk"

And Sam had this to say about Coldhands "The rider wore no glove. His hand was black and cold, with fingers as hard as stone"

So again: blood-black-stone. And the brances of trees are quite often associated to "fingers".

And not only bones, but flash as white as milk.

(Not to mention the black stone. What is it? Can it be that the one in Westeros is similar but not the same as that in Essos - so they parallel each other but they are not the same thing - and that in Westeros it's made of fused petrified weirwoods, or of fused stony leaf?)

But these are all the pieces I see, those I believe that may be tellig. However I cannot put them in order.

Sorry if it's a mess... but I don't know, may be someone else can.

[St Daga]

18 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

One thought I have had is that if a "star" did fall there, there should be some fairly extreme destruction there. Yet the landscape seems to be fairly normal, which lands itself to a more figurative narrative for the location of Starfall. Perhaps we get some Dany parallels in the Red Waste? In other words, the first Dayne tracked a visible comet that seemed to end at Starfall. Perhaps he found something there to help make Dawn? 

Yes, Dany's following the red star (a comet) lead her to Vaes Tolerro, the city of bones. I sometimes think Dany should have stayed here and let her dragons grow. The interesting thing about Dany following her red star into the Red Waste is that Dany realizes that no matter what, because of enemies in other directions, into the red waste is the only direction she could go. If there is a parallel for the Dayne's here, is it that they were forced to go in a certain direction, which conveniently lead to a place where a "star" fell? Vaes Tolerro is considered a white city with walls as "pale as the moon", which does rather remind me of the Palestone Sword Tower at Starfall. I think there are probably more parallel's to be found but I don't have the time at the moment.

As to a meteorite leaving some area of destruction around it, I agree. It seems like ever smallish meteorites leave some type of impact crater, so I would think some kind of crater would exist near Starfall. Isn't Starfall said to be built on an island? I wonder how big of an island it is?

[St Daga]

16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

A significant impact would be seen a very long distance away, even if it only lasted a minute. Comets are seen for so long because they are so far away, if one hit the Earth it would be gone just as quickly.

How far away? Not half the distance of Planetos, if the Daynes migrated from Essos, which I think is probable for them. Of course, meteorite showers happen in the same place each year, so if a person expected to see one, then they might have already traveled to the area to watch, therefore would be near if a meteorite hit the ground. Perhaps the first Dayne of Starfall had been searching for a fallen star as part of a prophecy for years, until he finally found one. Speculation, of course, but I kind of like it.

[St Daga]

13 hours ago, JNR said:

If he found his sister dying there, it's easy to see why he would experience PTSD.  In fact, there's direct support for missing memories, of a sort, here:

Quote

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

However, there would have to be a very good explanation for why Dawn glowed then and only then, since there is no myth or legend about Dawn doing this that I know of, in the thousands of years it's been part of the story of House Dayne, that we have heard so far...

Certainly there are hints to see Ned has some Swiss cheese for memory. It could relate to many things, or one.  It would certainly mirror Bran's inability to remember what happened when he fell/was pushed from the tower. But is it that Bran can't remember, or the 3EC won't let him remember? In that same idea, perhaps Ned has not been allowed to remember certain things. I believe we are meant to piece the past together from the stories that we are being told in the present. That could mean that Ned's memories were taken from him, but by whom?

As to not ever hearing information on Dawn "glowing", we are not told that. But we are not told much about Dawn, or how the Sword of the Morning is chosen. I personally think the sword picks the wielder, but that would mean the sword is more than just a chunk of metal that was forged by human hands. I could be way off base, and that would not really surprise me, but I really expect magic to pay a role in Dawn and who is worthy to carry it.

13 hours ago, JNR said:

Quote

No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on.

This description establishes its supernatural origin and nature pretty thoroughly, for me.

That is exactly how I picture Dawn being formed; by magic and unhuman means!

13 hours ago, JNR said:

Most meteorites that land are quite small; they break up in the atmosphere before any chunks hit.  We're not talking about asteroids or comets, but more like this.

That one was a weensy 61 grams and didn't make it through the roof.  The ones that have been mined for meteoric iron were bigger, but not monsters by any means.  A few are big enough to kill people, but not many, but quite a few are easy to see and track as they fall, because they look like this.

If I had to guess, I would say the Starfall meteorite was not huge and did not create a devastating impact, because to do that, it would have to be massive, and if it had contained much mass, and ore, there would be more Dawnlike blades -- or at least myths or legends of such blades (of which there are none I recall).

Well, you can't make a sword out of what hit that roof for certain. And even if it was bigger, big enough to have a sword made of it, then it would have to leave some kind of noted mark behind. Even the piddly little meteorite dented that roof. Meteroites are not pure metel, but would have to have some smelting done to get the pure metal free from other substances. You would be left with the pure ore and then the slag byproduct. and in my head canon, there is more waste than usable material, but I might be way off base on that. I just think a meteorite would leave some type of visible crater. However, Starfall is by the ocean, so perhaps the meteorite hit the water, and the impact cannot be seen so easily! That doesn't explain how they would find the rock in the sea. And I know very little of metal work, so I have no idea how much pure ore it would take to make a great sword, perhaps not as much as I think.

 

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, lalt said:

And I don't know if dragon bones can be melted to the point of becoming ashes. But if so, then I think it doesn't matter that the dragon bones are black, because the ashes will be grey/white regarless. I mean, this is how it goes if you burn something black or red, blue, whatever... ashes are white/grey.

Well, ash can come in multiple shades of grey, as well as white, and black. Volcanic ash is often black or near black, and even reddish in color. I think it's based on it's carbon content. Volcanic ash is a component of making some ceramics, and gosh knows ceramic is tough. I had to bust out a ceramic tile floor in my new house last year and it was the worst home improvement project I was ever part of. Ceramic is hard! And I had multiple cuts from little sliver's of the stuff. It is sharp! Heck, perhaps Dawn is ceramic? Ceramic knives are very strong, they seem to lack corrosion, and they hold an edge for a long time, up to ten times as long as steel, I have heard in advertisements. Perhaps this idea of ceramic, or at least a glaze, is something to consider for Valyrian steel as well as Dawn?

As to the dragonbones, it's hard to say if they can be melted down but as was pointed out up thread, it seems like GRRM says that dragonbone is not a component of making Valyrian Steel. Which is too bad since I was starting to form some lovely origami tinfoil based on the idea of a dragon with white bones.

5 hours ago, lalt said:

That said... I am more incline to think that the weirwood trees may be the key. Especially because there was not iron, there was not steel during the Long Night  - so I don't think dragonsteel is valyrian steel - but there were weirwood trees. 

And so far we know about 2 things that can become petrified: dragon eggs and weirwood trees. And we are told so many times that weirwood trees are white like bones and red like blood.

In short I see a parallel between dragons/weirwoods. 

 I would very much like to see what became of the weirwood at Storm's End. Or even the weirwood branches Mel had the wildlings burn to cross the wall. What happened to that wood after the flames burned it?

Maybe you are onto something and what is needed is a terribly hot heat, such as dragonflame, to burn a weirwood, to see what substance is left behind?

[Melifeather]

I like to picture Dawn with a shiny mirrored surface, cause it says, like, I want to be formal but I want to party too. 

I like to think of Dawn with like giant eagles wings and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band, and I'm in the front row and hammered drunk.

Seriously though...I always took the "alive with light" to mean a Dawn was a milky, crystal white that reflected light like a prism.

If there is a second magic sword akin to Azor Ahai's that burns fiery red - my money is on Ice.

[alienarea]

15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I like to picture Dawn with a shiny mirrored surface, cause it says, like, I want to be formal but I want to party too. 

I like to think of Dawn with like giant eagles wings and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band, and I'm in the front row and hammered drunk.

Seriously though...I always took the "alive with light" to mean a Dawn was a milky, crystal white that reflected light like a prism.

If there is a second magic sword akin to Azor Ahai's that burns fiery red - my money is on Ice.

Maybe the original Ice is missing because the Night King took it? His name has been erased (or will not be mentioned), maybe that is when Ice got "lost"?

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

How far away? Not half the distance of Planetos, if the Daynes migrated from Essos, which I think is probable for them. Of course, meteorite showers happen in the same place each year, so if a person expected to see one, then they might have already traveled to the area to watch, therefore would be near if a meteorite hit the ground. Perhaps the first Dayne of Starfall had been searching for a fallen star as part of a prophecy for years, until he finally found one. Speculation, of course, but I kind of like it.

Tunguska was seen and heard 300 miles away, and that isn't the upper limit, but I agree it is unlikely the Daynes followed it from Essos. 

A better question is if an object landed far away, wouldn't someone else have found it first? 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Certainly there are hints to see Ned has some Swiss cheese for memory. It could relate to many things, or one.  It would certainly mirror Bran's inability to remember what happened when he fell/was pushed from the tower. But is it that Bran can't remember, or the 3EC won't let him remember? In that same idea, perhaps Ned has not been allowed to remember certain things. I believe we are meant to piece the past together from the stories that we are being told in the present. That could mean that Ned's memories were taken from him, but by whom?

For that my bet is on Howland. He was the closest magic user that we know of, so him casting some shadows or rising some wights from the bodies of Ned companions is not out of the question. Ned is not the only Stark metaphorically commanding shadows in the books. After that some "cleaning" would be required.

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe the original Ice is missing because the Night King took it? His name has been erased (or will not be mentioned), maybe that is when Ice got "lost"?

I think that the original Ice was put away in the crypts or perhaps melted down. After the NK problem, I doubt that the Starks would want to draw attention to the fact that they themselves were closely associated with the Others. 

 

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Tunguska was seen and heard 300 miles away, and that isn't the upper limit, but I agree it is unlikely the Daynes followed it from Essos. 

A better question is if an object landed far away, wouldn't someone else have found it first? 

It could be that the first Dayne was in a ship. Travel by sea is faster than travel by land. There is more to the Daynes than we know and I am betting that Darkstar will be our insight into that mystery. Doran says that he is the most dangerous man in Dorne... and to me that has to mean that Darkstar has information of some importance. Clearly Darkstar has some martial talent, but I think Arianne overstated his martial talent.

 

40 minutes ago, Tucu said:

For that my bet is on Howland. He was the closest magic user that we know of, so him casting some shadows or rising some wights from the bodies of Ned companions is not out of the question. Ned is not the only Stark metaphorically commanding shadows in the books. After that some "cleaning" would be required.

I disagree, Ned's memory issues can be associated with PTSD. My issue is that casting shadows or raising wights doesn't fit with the narrative of the crannogmen. While I think that Howland helped Ned out a lot, my bet is that it was through more mundane means. and by mundane, I mean poison. 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe the original Ice is missing because the Night King took it? His name has been erased (or will not be mentioned), maybe that is when Ice got "lost"?

Maybe we saw the original Ice in the very first chapter - AGOT prologue.

[Black Crow]

This may be of interest in looking at a "dragonsteel" being wielded very early on when most men were armed with bronze weapons, far less tripping around with Valyrian/Damascus steel blades

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Maybe we saw the original Ice in the very first chapter - AGOT prologue.

That is possible.

Thinking about it I wonder whether the Night King and his pale bride will be mirrored by Jon and his fire bride and Jon will not be brought down by Joramun (a giant?) but a dwarf. He'll save Westeros but will be erased from history ... a bittersweet ending fitting a rumored scene from the mummer's version.

[corbon]

On 2/12/2019 at 8:05 AM, St Daga said:

One part of the story about Dawn that is hard for me to associate with a meteorite is the idea that the "first Dayne" followed, tracked, a meteorite. A meteorite flashes for but a moment, and then it is gone, and it's not something a person could follow from a distance (although it would leave an impact crater),

He followed its track, which is different from 'tracking' it.
A shooting star, a meteorite flashing by in a moment. shows a line, a track. If it flashed by low before actually landing (instead of being a brief flash before burning up in the atmosphere) it would show a longer track. And if it passed overhead, that track would give an easily 'followed' direction leading to the landing place.
So yes, it is something a person could follow from a distance.

[JNR]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

But is it that Bran can't remember, or the 3EC won't let him remember?

Well, first, I'm going to assume by "3EC" you mean Bloodraven.  In which case, I think it's trauma-related memory failure. 

While Bloodraven can communicate through dreams -- just as Bran does with Jon, in ACOK -- I don't think a greenseer has the power to edit or delete memories, even during skinchanging.  Bran, in fact, really can't even access Hodor's mind :

Quote

His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him.

So I think Ned's memories, or lack, arise from normal causes.

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

As to not ever hearing information on Dawn "glowing", we are not told that. But we are not told much about Dawn, or how the Sword of the Morning is chosen.

Well, Dawn is certainly a famous blade that comes up repeatedly.  You'd think supernatural properties like glowing on its own, or being nearly invisible when seen edge-on, or being made of crystal, would come up every time Dawn does.

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

I just think a meteorite would leave some type of visible crater.

It might or might not, depending on mass, but even if it did, we're talking about many thousands of years ago.  What had been a (I'm just making this up) twenty-foot crater, leaving only a remnant meteorite that weighs a hundred pounds or so, would be long forgotten and built over.  

Something spectacular such as Meteor Crater in Arizona would of course still remain.  We can be pretty sure there's nothing similar to that or we'd have heard of it. 

But a hundred-pound meteor could still hold enough ore to create a few failed swords (because the smith is completely unfamiliar with the metal and doesn't even know its melting point) and a successful one. 

Even a greatsword like a claymore only weighs five or six pounds, and if Dawn is like Valyrian steel in mass, it weighs less than ordinary steel for any given volume.