Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

[SirArthur]

27 minutes ago, JNR said:

So it seems quite possible to me that a meteorite fell, the sword was forged, hundreds or thousands of years went by... and then the Long Night happened. 

mhhhhhhh .... even swords evolve over time. A greatsword is a sophisticated weapon, build for unqiue fighting techniques. Sure, a club with an edge may be a thing, but I would assume even the club would be reforged many times until a good design is found and even then it may have to be reforged to react to a change in combat, e.g. brought by foreigners like the Andals.

I find it a more likely scenario that the "greatsword" is actually a reforged short sword from a giant and GRRM was just a bit imaginary in his fantasy.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

even swords evolve over time. A greatsword is a sophisticated weapon, build for unqiue fighting techniques

I'm not sure how sophisticated it is; it's straight and long and heavy, and that's about it.

I also note that Dawn is, according to GRRM, "a couple thousand years old" and "things get fuzzy before that," so it seems Westeros unquestionably did have greatswords, thousands of years ago.

The First Men are said to have brought bronze swords to Westeros, but we don't get any info about what kinds of swords they were beyond that.

(It'd be interesting to see the swords on crypts in the lowest levels of Winterfell.  Bronze does not rust and those swords could still be there.)

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

I find it a more likely scenario that the "greatsword" is actually a reforged short sword from a giant

I don't think there's any sign the giants, or the CotF for that matter, had any form of metallurgy at all.

[redriver]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Dawn was forged from the heart of a fallen star. This suggests the meteorite was much larger and not homogeneous. 

The real problem is timing. I don't think GRRM would have a meteorite cause The Long Night.  He has said he isn't mixing scifi into this story and to have the central conflict caused by a natural disaster goes against his theme of people being responsible for all the problems.  If the meteor didn't cause The Long Night, which happened first?  Did the Others take over, and just when the last hero needed it, a meteorite fell?  Or did a meteorite of magic metal land thousands of years ago and get ignored until The Long Night? 

An alternative explanation is maybe Dawn isn't special because of what it was made of but only how it was made.  The Dayne's could have had lots of meteoric steel weapons that rusted away like unmagical swords do.  The last hero could have used any hunk of iron, but chose Daynish meteorite, because if you are going to build a time machine into a car, you may as well do it with style. 

The Children of the Forest called down the Hammer of the Waters.

You can't tell Martin he didn't warn you.At least twice...

[Tucu]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think of Ned's grey wraith's and the shadow's of the Other's as similar, while the black shadow that killed Renly feels quite different to me. The blue eyes of death might relate to Ned's wraith's or they might relate to someone else, SAD, perhaps. I like the idea that links death's eyes to the petals of a blue rose, however!

I think that all the magical shadows will end having a similar origin. GRRM has included some tales that seem to hint at links. We have a septon (later executed for this) accusing Bloodraven of using a shadow to kill the unborn children of Valarr and another septon describing what looks like a shadow cutting the head of Syrax.

[redriver]

24 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I think that all the magical shadows will end having a similar origin. GRRM has included some tales that seem to hint at links. We have a septon (later executed for this) accusing Bloodraven of using a shadow to kill the unborn children of Valarr and another septon describing what looks like a shadow cutting the head of Syrax.

I wonder what Eldric Shadowchaser was chasing all the way to Asshai(by the shadow)?There's probably a clue in the name somewhere but I can't figure it out.

[Tucu]

28 minutes ago, redriver said:

I wonder what Eldric Shadowchaser was chasing all the way to Asshai(by the shadow)?There's probably a clue in the name somewhere but I can't figure it out.

If Eldric is a reference to Elric of Melniboné he was probably chasing shadows to feed his sword. We are told that Nissa Nissa's soul went into Lightbringer and the world book talks about the Iron Born having "black weapons that drank the very souls of those they slew"

[SirArthur]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

I'm not sure how sophisticated it is; it's straight and long and heavy, and that's about it

oh my sweet summer child

[Brad Stark]

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

mhhhhhhh .... even swords evolve over time. A greatsword is a sophisticated weapon, build for unqiue fighting techniques. Sure, a club with an edge may be a thing, but I would assume even the club would be reforged many times until a good design is found and even then it may have to be reforged to react to a change in combat, e.g. brought by foreigners like the Andals.

I find it a more likely scenario that the "greatsword" is actually a reforged short sword from a giant and GRRM was just a bit imaginary in his fantasy.

To split hairs, Dawn may not be designed as a greatsword, but it may just be called a greatsword since that is the most similar currently used weapon.

The Stark's Ice is an interesting comparison - far too large and heavy to be an effective weapon by someone Ned's size, but still made even though a smaller more practical weapon would be much cheaper.  This suggests either it was a practical weapon by a much larger and stronger individual, or purely ceremonial.  Dawn is a far more practical weapon, but still somewhat unusual in being a large design.  Daggers have changed relatively little over the years - a small sharp blade would work the same in 10,000 BC as 1,000 BC as 1000 AD as today, but very large blades designs have very short shelf lives.  Whether GRRM is aware of this and chose to include it in his story is another matter.

[redriver]

It has to be an influence (Yrkoon,Stormbringer).Though in this case I think Martin is doing his own thing.

I can see influences from everything includingthe Bible and Dante's Inferno to modern works like you've rightly referenced.

The Shadow in this case is a comet,or a piece of it.The comet creates a shadow by appearing between the sun and the planet.The comet crashes near Asshai creating the geographical rift we read about,it delivers the soul eating dark stone which is not only a weapon but the building block of that fabled city.And the foundation of the Citadel and the Seastone Chair.

And it delivers dragons.Bran sees then wakening near Asshai,the trader from Qarth tells us that the moon cracked ,spilling forth dragons,  and the Nissa Nissa tale informs us that her death wail cracked the moon.

[Tucu]

GRRM is doing his own thing, but the assasination of Ser Puddles by the coward Samwell Tarly might be pointing at the obsidian blade consuming the soul of the WW.

[redriver]

39 minutes ago, Tucu said:

GRRM is doing his own thing, but the assasination of Ser Puddles by the coward Samwell Tarly might be pointing at the obsidian blade consuming the soul of the WW.

We're clearly talking at cross purposes here.I'll clarify my thoughts tomorrow,but I sense there are important points at a macro (world building) and  micro(story narrative) at work.

Sacrifice on a grand scale is thematically resonant throughout the Nissa Nissa fable and Danaerys' story of waking dragons from stone.

I'll leave it there.Don't think you require spoon feeding.

[dialt]

10 hours ago, redriver said:

It has to be an influence (Yrkoon,Stormbringer).Though in this case I think Martin is doing his own thing.

I can see influences from everything includingthe Bible and Dante's Inferno to modern works like you've rightly referenced.

The Shadow in this case is a comet,or a piece of it.The comet creates a shadow by appearing between the sun and the planet.The comet crashes near Asshai creating the geographical rift we read about,it delivers the soul eating dark stone which is not only a weapon but the building block of that fabled city.And the foundation of the Citadel and the Seastone Chair.

And it delivers dragons.Bran sees then wakening near Asshai,the trader from Qarth tells us that the moon cracked ,spilling forth dragons,  and the Nissa Nissa tale informs us that her death wail cracked the moon.

I’m using your post because it’s a good recap of the idea “ a meteor caused the Long Night” but the question is for you all.

I get the point and I also get how it may explain the birth of the Dragons.

What I honestly don’t get is how that may be tied to the Others. 

We are reading of a new winter/long night coming. And this winter/long night brings the Others or maybe it’s the Others that brings the winter/long night.

And sure, in the current times Dragons are re-born.

However how do the Others fit with the idea meteor-long night- Dragons it’s something I still don’t get.

Not even on a symbolic standpoint. For instance, I really like LML take on the symbolism moon+sun=Long night-meteor shower-Dragons. I really do and I guess most of the times his “metaphorical/symbolic” reading of the text is right. But it seems to me that is always about Dragons.

So... yes. The question is: how do the Others come into play in this scenario.

Is there any detailed theory or part of the theory that I miss?

[Black Crow]

37 minutes ago, lalt said:

I’m using your post because it’s a good recap of the idea “ a meteor caused the Long Night” but the question is for you all.

I get the point and I also get how it may explain the birth of the Dragons.

What I honestly don’t get is how that may be tied to the Others. 

We are reading of a new winter/long night coming. And this winter/long night brings the Others or maybe it’s the Others that brings the winter/long night.

And sure, in the current times Dragons are re-born.

However how do the Others fit with the idea meteor-long night- Dragons it’s something I still don’t get.

Not even on a symbolic standpoint. For instance, I really like LML take on the symbolism moon+sun=Long night-meteor shower-Dragons. I really do and I guess most of the times his “metaphorical/symbolic” reading of the text is right. But it seems to me that is always about Dragons.

So... yes. The question is: how do the Others come into play in this scenario.

Is there any detailed theory or part of the theory that I miss?

 

First things first;

Given the Dothraki legend about how the first dragons hatched from a second moon which split apart, I'm still of a mind that we're talking of a moon rather than a random celestial comet.

Secondly, as to the Others, there are hints of a dirty secret in the Stark past and there is a very old heresy that it is not going to be a matter of the dragons and the red lot saving Westeros from the Others, but of the Others saving Westeros from the dragons. The land of Westeros may well get trashed in the process, whatever the outcome, but you need to consider GRRM's background of growing up in the Cold War and MAD, and of course as I keep referencing, the fall of the Berlin Wall just months before he commenced writing this particular fairy tale. The story is GRRM's but its hard not to see the background as an allegory for the Cold War

 

 

[redriver]

3 hours ago, lalt said:

I’m using your post because it’s a good recap of the idea “ a meteor caused the Long Night” but the question is for you all.

I get the point and I also get how it may explain the birth of the Dragons.

What I honestly don’t get is how that may be tied to the Others. 

We are reading of a new winter/long night coming. And this winter/long night brings the Others or maybe it’s the Others that brings the winter/long night.

And sure, in the current times Dragons are re-born.

However how do the Others fit with the idea meteor-long night- Dragons it’s something I still don’t get.

Not even on a symbolic standpoint. For instance, I really like LML take on the symbolism moon+sun=Long night-meteor shower-Dragons. I really do and I guess most of the times his “metaphorical/symbolic” reading of the text is right. But it seems to me that is always about Dragons.

So... yes. The question is: how do the Others come into play in this scenario.

Is there any detailed theory or part of the theory that I miss?

I'm not sure I'm using LML's theory for this part (Though I may be).To be succinct,the Others are the price paid for the comet.

We know Martin's rules of magic and sorcery-only death can pay for life and you might not get what you want.The idea is that the CotF by themselves or in alliance with some of the first men made human sacrifices to create the comet crash.The story can then be seen as trying to right this original wrong.

You are right to point out that the Lightbringer fable is not the story of a hero but of an event that caused the Long Night.And you have to shuffle given timelines and event sequences to accommodate this.

[Brad Stark]

At least some of these stories and legends are going to be completely wrong and just there to color a more realistic world. And GRRM is not one to explain everything in the end so we may never know. 

I do think the story of The Last Hero and AA and Lightbringer will turn out to be relevant and the moon splitting to create dragons is just color.  But that is just my intuition. 

[redriver]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

At least some of these stories and legends are going to be completely wrong and just there to color a more realistic world. And GRRM is not one to explain everything in the end so we may never know. 

I do think the story of The Last Hero and AA and Lightbringer will turn out to be relevant and the moon splitting to create dragons is just color.  But that is just my intuition. 

There are two traditions that we know of about a moon splitting,from Qarth and Asshai.And Septon Barth tells us dragons have an unnatural history.Though I tend to think the title refers to the sorcery involved in Dragon bonding rather than how their prototypes were delivered.But it could be both.

[redriver]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

First things first;

Given the Dothraki legend about how the first dragons hatched from a second moon which split apart, I'm still of a mind that we're talking of a moon rather than a random celestial comet.

Secondly, as to the Others, there are hints of a dirty secret in the Stark past and there is a very old heresy that it is not going to be a matter of the dragons and the red lot saving Westeros from the Others, but of the Others saving Westeros from the dragons. The land of Westeros may well get trashed in the process, whatever the outcome, but you need to consider GRRM's background of growing up in the Cold War and MAD, and of course as I keep referencing, the fall of the Berlin Wall just months before he commenced writing this particular fairy tale. The story is GRRM's but its hard not to see the background as an allegory for the Cold War

 

 

To be hyper-pedantic it's not a Dothraki legend but a Qartheen one.The Dothraki tradition is that the moon was wife and the sun,the husband.Then that fits neatly into the Nissa Nissa template.Asteroid/comet obliterates the moon.From an observer's viewpoint a thousand thousand dragons are seen as fiery ejecta.

I think you're right about the Berlin Wall being a huge influence on this tale but Shoemaker-Levi was a big story around then.It hit Jupiter in 1994 having split in to 5 big chunks but up to 20 in total if you include the smaller pieces.

[JNR]

15 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The Stark's Ice is an interesting comparison - far too large and heavy to be an effective weapon by someone Ned's size

How do you know either Ned's size or Ice's weight? 

Neither is ever given, and what we're told about Valyrian steel is that it's quite a bit lighter than conventional steel:

Quote

The blade itself was a good half foot longer than those Jon was used to, tapered to thrust as well as slash, with three fullers deeply incised in the metal. Where Ice was a true two-handed greatsword, this was a hand-and-a-halfer, sometimes named a "bastard sword." Yet the wolf sword actually seemed lighter than the blades he had wielded before.

The same is likely true of Dawn, and makes it very easy to explain why smiths would construct a greatsword of it; the typical extra weight of greatswords in our world, derived from steel in our world, simply doesn't apply to supernaturally light metals in this fictional world.

[St Daga]

22 hours ago, JNR said:

23 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think even without the dream, Jaime was possibly aware that Brienne the Beauty could face the bear pit, and that information didn't come to him from the dream itself.

It was only after the dream that Jaime insisted on going back, though. 

Is that really a coincidence, because the dream was irrelevant?  Or does it reflect the certainty he acquired from the dream?

I am not saying that Jaime's fever dream is irrelevant at all, but I do wonder how much of his conscious knowledge has funneled into the dream. The same day as his dream, he finds out from Qyburn that Brienne's father cannot pay a ransom in sapphires, only 300 gold dragons, and that this is not good enough for Vargo Hoat. Jaime also finds out that Brienne was intimately examined to prove she is a maiden. He knows if  Vargo tries to rape Brienne, she will fight! And while Jaime does ride on, these things are on his mind.

Brienne is naked in his dream, but she was naked in the bathtub's at Harrenhal, too. Brienne being naked in water is something that is already part of his conscious memories. She wants a sword and she wants to protect him. These are also aspects of the reality that Brienne and Jaime have shared. I personally think that Brienne is the biggest reason for Jaime's change, and I think subconsciously, he is aware of it, too!

But you are correct that it is only after the dream that Jaime takes action, and so the dream may very well be his catalyst for saving Brienne. But the aspects of her in Jaime's dream are the things I find the least mystical about Jaime's dream. And I do find quite a bit of mysticism involved in his dream.

The cowled and dark hooded men with spears seem to hint at the Night's Watch, the two swords burning with blue flame light seem to hint at Ice, and Tywin telling Jaime "I gave you a sword" when that hasn't happened yet, Also interesting to me is how Brienne asks what lives in the darkness, a cave lion, a direwolf, a bear. Jaime says no lion, no bear, only doom. So, does that mean the direwolf, which he doesn't deny is in the darkness, is linked to his and Brienne's doom?

Then we get the riders moving through the darkness. Jaime's initial thought is of Eddard Stark riding into the throne room during the Sack, and his initial thought is that it's Lord Eddard riding in his dream. That would also be an influence of actual life. And then the silent riders seem to represent his five dead kingsguard brothers and Rhaegar. Now, this could also be an influence from actual life. Jaime might have made a choice he thought was best in the situation when he killed Aerys, but he defiled his vows to protect that very king, vows that seem to weigh heavy on him, vows that he thinks these riders obeyed. And I think we get a glimpse of Jaime's greatest regret, which is the fate of Rhaegar's children, something he possibly could have changed, but did not! That said, while I think this aspect of his dream could be his remembered reality and conscious seeping in, the fact that the riders are silent and come out of the darkness, hints at the Other's from the Prologue in Game. And that seems prophetic more than a hint of remembered reality.

Jaime's dream seems to be a mix of past and possible future! And yes, back to Brienne, it does seem like something in his dreams unsettled Jaime enough that he was willing to force a change of plans and go back and rescue Brienne. And in a damn-well heroic manner! So the dream might have changed something in Jaime, but those aspects of Brienne that are involved in his dream might have come from his own memories. I find Jaime's dream quite fascinating, and maybe like Ned's, it's a combination of fever and dreamwine and memories that have already been lived. Could that mean that Ned's dream might involve a bit of mysticism as well, fed perhaps by the weirnet? How would we view Jaime's dream if we know nothing about his past? I see a lot of parallel's between Jaime and Ned, and I think these dreams streams of theirs might be more connected than it seems.

And when Jaime wakes from this dream, as his sword light goes out, he wakes screaming! And Qyburn offers him more dreamwine, which Jaime declines. So, I am left to wonder, how much did the fever influence Jaime's dream, how much did the dreamwine, how much did the darkness and the stars, how much did the weirwood stump, how much did the past? 

 

22 hours ago, JNR said:

Quote

"You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."

Yet the truth about the Popsicles' reality seems to have made it into his dreaming mind, all the same.

So, if comparing Ned and Jaime's dreams, both influenced by fever, dreamwine and the past, what else is similar about them? Ned and Jaime are both severely injured. I believe you are saying that Ned's dream mind has opened him up to the idea of the blue'eyes of death being associated with the Other's, something that he has NOT experienced in his reality. And this might very well be the correct interpretation. And if Ned didn't see them in a past event, then this seems to be something mystical from the future.

Just as Jaime's dream and the silent riders has hints of the Other's as far as I am concerned. I also think it's possible that something that actually happened at the toj (whatever the heck that really was) are responsible for the blue eyes of death. IF SAD had eyes similar to Ned Dayne's, a dark blue that could that could almost be purple, and we know SAD was a brilliant swordsman with Dawn in his hand, then perhaps the interpretation of the blue eyes of death is Arthur Dayne wielding Dawn and literally dealing out death with that sword. Although, my personal favorite interpretation of the Neddard's dream is that it is Ned and his men that fit the imagery of the Other's, not the three kingsguard.

I also think that quite of bit of what Ned doesn't seem to remember fits the idea of PTSD, and that it was an experience that he has forgotten to protect himself, or like Bran, those memories were taken away from him, or that some being sheltered him from remembering. I am honestly open to several interpretations, and I kind of like to work through them all, seeing what might fit best.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, redriver said:

Asteroid/comet obliterates the moon.From an observer's viewpoint a thousand thousand dragons are seen as fiery ejecta.

The problems with LmL's theory here are the same as always, though. 

A comet is not going to shatter a moon comparable in mass to ours, which GRRM's moon seems to be, but will instead just strike and create a crater, just like the thousands of craters on our moon, which no comet has shattered in over four billion years.

If a comet did shatter a moon of such size, the stupendous amount of fallout would soon, through mass impacts, obliterate all life on the surface of the world -- it would dramatically exceed the effect of the bolide that we think killed the dinosaurs 65m years ago.  If our Moon suddenly exploded, that would be the end of humanity.

If that somehow didn't happen, then the idea that the fiery ejecta somehow create the Long Night, meaning an invasion of ice demons and wights in Westeros, still just doesn't work for me at a basic level.

And of course GRRM has told us outright the seasons have a magical cause.  Comets striking moons don't seem to qualify as magical.