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Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side


Black Crow

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28 minutes ago, St Daga said:

So, if comparing Ned and Jaime's dreams, both influenced by fever, dreamwine and the past, what else is similar

Well, I don't think it's limited to them, by any means.  I would sooner say that dreams are constantly delivering obscured or hidden or useful information to characters in various ways.  Obvious additional instances include:

• Bran and Rickon dreaming of Ned being dead in AGOT.  Luwin tries to tell them it's kooky talk... but he soon learns they're simply correct.

• Virtually all of Jon's dreams, such as the ones in which he's in the crypts, or the one in which he's on the wall wielding a burning blade while wearing black ice -- obviously we think these are meaningful, given how much time we've spent discussing them in Heresy!

• Virtually all of Dany's dreams in AGOT, which seem to be the fundamental means by which she realizes how to hatch the dragon eggs (though no Targ had been able to do it for the past 150 years)

And I brought up the Ghost of High Heart and Jojen earlier.  I don't consider them fundamentally different.

Broadly speaking, the various means by which information comes to characters supernaturally (dreams, visions, prophecies, etc) seem to be one of the most common and overt forms of magic in this world.

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18 hours ago, Tucu said:
On 2/16/2019 at 8:04 AM, St Daga said:

I think of Ned's grey wraith's and the shadow's of the Other's as similar, while the black shadow that killed Renly feels quite different to me. The blue eyes of death might relate to Ned's wraith's or they might relate to someone else, SAD, perhaps. I like the idea that links death's eyes to the petals of a blue rose, however!

I think that all the magical shadows will end having a similar origin. GRRM has included some tales that seem to hint at links. We have a septon (later executed for this) accusing Bloodraven of using a shadow to kill the unborn children of Valarr and another septon describing what looks like a shadow cutting the head of Syrax.

The origin of the shadows might all end of being the same, but I am not sold on that idea completely, either. As I said, the black shadows that Mel seems to cast seem quite different to me. However, if all magic comes from the same source, and the difference is how it is used, then this could be the same concept with the shadows. They all come from the same source, but are used or called differently. However, I am not sold on the Other's, the Whitewalkers, not being actual mystical beings with a very real "shadow" presence in the story.

There are many, many uses for shadows in the story. GRRM uses it for the Other's, the direwolves, the dragons, he uses it for the Night's Watch members, for the kingsguard members, he uses it to describe the statues in the crypts, he uses it to describe Asshai, he uses it to describe swords and horses and death, and those are just off the top of my head. I am sure a search would provide a ton of usages that I have forgotten. He uses it to describe real shadows and metaphorical shadows. I swear I think "shadow" is one of GRRM's favorite words in the text. So, sometimes I think that it is very difficult to narrow down just what type of "shadow" he is referring too, and how it's meant in the overall interpretation of the text.

By magical shadows, what are you actually thinking of? Mel's black shadows, I would guess, and then the white shadows, the Other's or white walkers. Ned's wraith's could fit the imagery of a shadow intended to kill. MMD's shadows in Drogo's tent ritual. And the dragons are considered shadows and seem to be magical. And the wildfire is green magic that is noted to cast shadows. What do magic shadows really mean? Perhaps I am making the concept too broad in my mind!

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2 hours ago, JNR said:

How do you know either Ned's size or Ice's weight? 

Neither is ever given, and what we're told about Valyrian steel is that it's quite a bit lighter than conventional steel:

The same is likely true of Dawn, and makes it very easy to explain why smiths would construct a greatsword of it; the typical extra weight of greatswords in our world, derived from steel in our world, simply doesn't apply to supernaturally light metals in this fictional world.

As always the question is what GRRM is actually using. e.g. real world greatsword (with a length limit because the moves need both hands) or some american fantasy conan style sword. That is the real issue here. One is a rarely used and very niche weapon in the category of two weapon sword combat (also an america favorite) and the other is a real weapon designed to break long spear formations and excel in 1:1 combat vs heavy armor. And the real thing is not that heavy, with 5-8 lbs. 

There is no weight issue at all. A greatsword weights as much as a M16 and maybe a light mg. You can read it here:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

Now I can imagine a Conan style archaic weapon to be heavier, but that has nothing to do with the real weapon, it's combat moves and style. And I would expect GRRM to use Conan weapons over reality. But he has to clarify that in his texts, if he redefines the meaning of the words he uses. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, St Daga said:

The origin of the shadows might all end of being the same, but I am not sold on that idea completely, either. As I said, the black shadows that Mel seems to cast seem quite different to me. However, if all magic comes from the same source, and the difference is how it is used, then this could be the same concept with the shadows. They all come from the same source, but are used or called differently. However, I am not sold on the Other's, the Whitewalkers, not being actual mystical beings with a very real "shadow" presence in the story.

There are many, many uses for shadows in the story. GRRM uses it for the Other's, the direwolves, the dragons, he uses it for the Night's Watch members, for the kingsguard members, he uses it to describe the statues in the crypts, he uses it to describe Asshai, he uses it to describe swords and horses and death, and those are just off the top of my head. I am sure a search would provide a ton of usages that I have forgotten. He uses it to describe real shadows and metaphorical shadows. I swear I think "shadow" is one of GRRM's favorite words in the text. So, sometimes I think that it is very difficult to narrow down just what type of "shadow" he is referring too, and how it's meant in the overall interpretation of the text.

By magical shadows, what are you actually thinking of? Mel's black shadows, I would guess, and then the white shadows, the Other's or white walkers. Ned's wraith's could fit the imagery of a shadow intended to kill. MMD's shadows in Drogo's tent ritual. And the dragons are considered shadows and seem to be magical. And the wildfire is green magic that is noted to cast shadows. What do magic shadows really mean? Perhaps I am making the concept too broad in my mind!

I have a wide mind map in my head around what GRRM might want magical shadows to be in the history. I will try to explain some of the main threads.

If I start WW=white shadow and Ghost=white shadow. Can we combine this two to get to WW=ghosts/spirits/shades? I would say quite probably (more on this below).

Then we have KG=white shadow. In this case this means guardian or protector. This applies to Ghost too. Can we say that the WW are protectors too? Maybe.

The WW are also described as watchers in the prologue of AGoT. So they are also shadows that are watchers and appear only at night. This links to the Night's Watch that are black shadows that serve as watchers and protectors. They seem to be a cargo cult version of the WW. We also have The Watcher chapter describing what a watcher is: "Serve. Protect. Obey. Simple vows for simple men. That was all he knew". This seems to point towards the WW as pawns of a player of a different nature.

We can also look at the Undying that are described as "blue shadows". The way they are described in Dany's chapter seems to link again to the shadows being spirits or ghosts. The grey wraiths in Ned's dream also reinforces the idea that shadows=spirits. If we have white, blue and grey shadows being spirits/ghosts, can we extend this to Mel's black shadows? It doesn't sound far fetched that they are spirits controlled by shadowbinding. Their swords seem to be as effective as the WW's in cutting through steel.

Further hints comes from Mirri's ritual and Patchface's rhymes about dancing shadows and dead men dancing.

I probably have another big section of the mind map built around the different tales about ghosts, including the ghosts in Jamie's, Jon's and Brienne's chapters plus Mance's shades, the ghosts in Harrenhal and the Nightfort and the misty "spirits returning to their graves" described by Cat; but the post is already too long.

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

Broadly speaking, the various means by which information comes to characters supernaturally (dreams, visions, prophecies, etc) seem to be one of the most common and overt forms of magic in this world.

Well, if all the dreams are from the weirnet, and the weirnet is the "magic" in the story, this works. I compared Ned and Jaime's dreams because I see the similarity of an injury, a fever, some dreamwine, to make them very similar. Jaime's is a bit different because it involves the weirwood stump, I guess! Actually, Jon's dream post leg injury is very similar to Ned and Jaime's fever dreams, with reality and past events invading what could either be prophetic or with some deeply buried knowledge. Although, relooking at that dream from Storm Jon VIII, I am not sure Jon has either a fever or dreamwine on board at this time, so perhaps it's not 'as similar as I had thought.

Also, Ned and Jaime are seeing dead people from the past, while Jon is actually looking for people he thinks are dead, but he can't find in the crypts. It's interesting that he looks for Bran and Rickon, who we know are alive but Jon doesn't know that. Jon also looks for Benjen, but can't find him, which could be a hint that Benjen is alive, and Jon also looks for his "father", and can't find him, so that could indicate that Ned isn't dead (unlikely) or isn't Jon's father (more likely, but I don't like it) or is alive and someone Jon doesn't suspect (which hints of Mance to me, for some reason). He doesn't call or look for Robb, but he must know by now. Maybe Robb's presence is noted in the direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood. So, is it the bones that are important in the crypts, or just the idea of a dead Stark's spirit resides there? Dream Ned came to both Bran and Rickon in the crypts at one point after his execution, and is bones certainly were not there. And, I realize I have veered off on a tangent... ooops!

 

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, I don't think it's limited to them, by any means.  I would sooner say that dreams are constantly delivering obscured or hidden or useful information to characters in various ways.  Obvious additional instances include:

• Virtually all of Jon's dreams, such as the ones in which he's in the crypts, or the one in which he's on the wall wielding a burning blade while wearing black ice -- obviously we think these are meaningful, given how much time we've spent discussing them in Heresy!

• Virtually all of Dany's dreams in AGOT, which seem to be the fundamental means by which she realizes how to hatch the dragon eggs (though no Targ had been able to do it for the past 150 years)

And I brought up the Ghost of High Heart and Jojen earlier.  I don't consider them fundamentally different.

I would guess we think all of the dreams/visions in the story are meaningful, as much as they are discussed! I have in the past felt that the dreams and visions all come from the same source, but perhaps for different purposes. But some of them are so different, it's hard to imagine that they truly all come from the same source, and I need to rethink my interpretations on the dreams sources. 

As to Dany's dreams, perhaps the key for her is that she isn't a Targaryen, or at least not a pure Targaryen. Something about her is different than the people who tried to hatch dragons in the past. Different in the sense that she either figured it out, or had the right combination of blood/magic in her veins to make it work.

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15 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I have a wide mind map in my head around what GRRM might want magical shadows to be in the history. I will try to explain some of the main threads.

I can totally follow the path you are laying that describes the shadows, and the line of connection. However, in my head, the colors do make a difference, but I might be wrong about that. I do like the line of thought that the white walkers could be protectors because Ghost and the Kingsguard are seen as protectors. But the kingsguard doesn't always protect, Jaime murdered his king and Joffrey's kingsguard abuse Sansa! And when Orell's eagle attacks Jon, Ghost is not around to protect Jon (Ygritte is the protector in this case). So, perhaps the white walkers were intended to protect but in some way have failed in their duty? If so, is it based on personal choice, or something else?

 

21 minutes ago, Tucu said:

We can also look at the Undying that are described as "blue shadows". The way they are described in Dany's chapter seems to link again to the shadows being spirits or ghosts.

I do wonder about the Undying being blue shadows. This part of Dany's vision is peppered by "indigo light" in Dany's vision. I have wondered if that has affected both Rhaegar's eye color in her vision (how far does the indigo light shine?), as well as what color these shadow's are. I am more inclined to see them as white or grey, two colors that could easily look blue in the correct lighting. two colors that I associate with the Starks.

 

25 minutes ago, Tucu said:

but the post is already too long.

Not at all. It's a very interesting interpretation, and while I am unsure of it, I certainly am interested in the concept!

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5 hours ago, St Daga said:

I can totally follow the path you are laying that describes the shadows, and the line of connection. However, in my head, the colors do make a difference, but I might be wrong about that. I do like the line of thought that the white walkers could be protectors because Ghost and the Kingsguard are seen as protectors. But the kingsguard doesn't always protect, Jaime murdered his king and Joffrey's kingsguard abuse Sansa! And when Orell's eagle attacks Jon, Ghost is not around to protect Jon (Ygritte is the protector in this case). So, perhaps the white walkers were intended to protect but in some way have failed in their duty? If so, is it based on personal choice, or something else?

This takes us to the Soiled Knight branch. Arianne wonders if the died to protect her or in act of redemption (for his sins or for serving a monster). Can this apply to the WWs? Is this similar to how Theon asks for a sword for redemption to the Old Gods in A Ghost in Winterfell? Is he going to end as a shadow?

Quote

Did he charge at Areo Hotah in hopes of saving me? Or did he do it to escape me, to wash out his dishonor with his life's blood?

I found it funny that in that scene we have a soiled white shadow attacking The Watcher, so watcher vs watcher. Not sure if this points towards a civil war within the original NW.

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

I do wonder about the Undying being blue shadows. This part of Dany's vision is peppered by "indigo light" in Dany's vision. I have wondered if that has affected both Rhaegar's eye color in her vision (how far does the indigo light shine?), as well as what color these shadow's are. I am more inclined to see them as white or grey, two colors that could easily look blue in the correct lighting. two colors that I associate with the Starks.

I think the colour is important but not sure how. The simplest explanation I have is that they have the colour of what binds them to the physical world. White mist for the WW, shade of the evening for the Undying and the smoke from Mel's fires for her babies.

For Ned's grey shadows I am not sure. Is this to mark the Starks as a middle-man between the white shadows and the black shadows of the NW? Or maybe they were part of a transition from one to the other? A reference to the Night's King and Brandon the Breaker.

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2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

As always the question is what GRRM is actually using. e.g. real world greatsword (with a length limit because the moves need both hands) or some american fantasy conan style sword. That is the real issue here.

Well, I think it's pretty indisputable that greatswords are often wielded effectively in combat in ASOIAF, in quite a few cases.

It's beyond any possible doubt that Arthur Dayne did so, wielding Dawn.  He was successful even against super-skilled swordsmen like the Smiling Knight.   GRRM, when asked, also said Dayne would beat Barristan Selmy (also super-skilled), if Dayne had Dawn and Selmy had a regular steel sword, and that says a lot.

It's easy to find other cases, and some include Valyrian steel greatswords.  Off the top of my head, there's the Lannister greatsword, Brightroar, which was used to decapitate Harrald Halfdrowned in battle according to the World book, and there's Heartsbane, that Sam's father wore in battle, and Tarly is not a particularly huge guy going by his description.

And finally, we even have Mance just murdering Jon in personal combat in ADWD using a normal steel greatsword, while Jon, no slouch with a blade himself, is using a much lighter, but shorter, everyday longsword:

Quote

 

He has no shield, Jon reminded himself, and that monster sword's too cumbersome for parries. I should be landing two blows for every one of his.

Somehow he wasn't, though, and the blows he did land were having no effect. The wildling always seemed to be moving away or sliding sideways, so Jon's longsword glanced off a shoulder or an arm. Before long he found himself giving more ground, trying to avoid the other's crashing cuts and failing half the time. His shield had been reduced to kindling. He shook it off his arm. Sweat was running down his face and stinging his eyes beneath his helm. He is too strong and too quick, he realized, and with that greatsword he has weight and reach on me.

 

So I think it's quite a reasonable guess that whatever smith forged Dawn... however many thousands of years ago it was.. could have extrapolated what a formidable weapon a greatsword made of such a strong but light metal would be. 

You get the reach, you get the edge, it's all but indestructible, and you pay very little price, if any, when it comes to weight.  Never been such a situation in our world, because there was never any metal like that (well -- when people were fighting with swords, I mean -- perhaps now it might be possible).

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1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I have in the past felt that the dreams and visions all come from the same source, but perhaps for different purposes.

This is an interesting area indeed, and if I had to guess I would say you are right:

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

if all the dreams are from the weirnet

We're told, outright, that the weirwoods are immortal and that they perceive time differently:

Quote

For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak.

And the shade of the evening, we know, also comes from trees in Essos.

So the premise that the weirwoods (not just trees, but immortal trees, that can introduce information from far in the future if they aren't killed) are the ultimate source of all forms of prescience seems quite plausible. 

We can look at the Ghost of High Heart as the best prophet of the series (she is IMO anyway).  It might be her location -- High Heart, a grove of weirwoods -- is directly related.

Will GRRM ever spell this out? Maybe.  I doubt it.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Something about her is different than the people who tried to hatch dragons in the past. Different in the sense that she either figured it out, or had the right combination of blood/magic in her veins to make it work.

Or perhaps different in that GRRM absolutely had to have her dragons hatch... or his whole story would implode. :thumbsup:

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On 2/16/2019 at 11:54 AM, St Daga said:

Okay, if he didn't follow it's trajectory in the sky, then what kind of "track" did the star leave? A meteorite would be seen for moments, but then it would be gone. Even if it is seem from a long distance, it only lasts a small amount of time. Unless it landed and set the country side on fire and it burned for days and days. I guess a forest fire could be seen for a long distance, at least long enough to track something. I just don't think a meteorite would leave a trail in the sky long enough to track, no matter what angle it flew at. A comet makes more sense for any length of time.

Err, its not that hard to note a direction, and follow the brief (seconds long) 'track' in the sky for days or weeks, toward the eventual impact point.

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7 hours ago, JNR said:

How do you know either Ned's size or Ice's weight? 

Neither is ever given, and what we're told about Valyrian steel is that it's quite a bit lighter than conventional steel:

The same is likely true of Dawn, and makes it very easy to explain why smiths would construct a greatsword of it; the typical extra weight of greatswords in our world, derived from steel in our world, simply doesn't apply to supernaturally light metals in this fictional world.

From the SSMs, when asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle, GRRM said it was was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain.

When asked "Who would win in a fight, Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne (in their best days)?" the response was "Dayne... if he was armed with Dawn.

If both men had equivalent weaponry, it might be a toss-up."

 

So from that, we know Ice was too heavy for Ned but Dawn provided a significant advantage to Arthur Dayne.  We don't really know how strong (and strength matters, not size) Arthur was, but I think it is a fair assumption he was weaker than The Mountain.

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I don't know how much GRRM knows about real weaponry.  Lighter is not always an advantage.  A weapon too heavy to skillfully use is worth very little.  But otherwise, a lighter weapon is faster but a heavy weapon is stronger, and most well trained people would fare better in battle with weapons towards the upper end of whatever weight they can handle.  An extremely light weapon is the useless equivalent of hitting your opponents with a Nerf sword when they have real weapons.

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8 hours ago, St Daga said:

Just as Jaime's dream and the silent riders has hints of the Other's as far as I am concerned. I also think it's possible that something that actually happened at the toj (whatever the heck that really was) are responsible for the blue eyes of death. IF SAD had eyes similar to Ned Dayne's, a dark blue that could that could almost be purple, and we know SAD was a brilliant swordsman with Dawn in his hand, then perhaps the interpretation of the blue eyes of death is Arthur Dayne wielding Dawn and literally dealing out death with that sword. Although, my personal favorite interpretation of the Neddard's dream is that it is Ned and his men that fit the imagery of the Other's, not the three kingsguard.

So I have been thinking about the magic's that goes into the forging of Valyrian steel. We have talked about sacrifice being needed and that it appears to have a mind of it's own. Also, we have thought that the Starks and the Others have had a liaison in the past.

We aren't told a lot about the fight at the TOJ, but I suspect that we can tie a few things together. Ice, as we see it, is not designed for combat but is a ceremonial blade. I personally think that this doesn't make sense, as we see numerous houses use their Blade's in combat (heartsbane, Longclaw, both Targaryen swords, Red Rain, Nightfall, etc.). It follows that Ice should be able to be used in combat. 

If we combine the fact that House Swords are designed to be used and that the Starks sword isn't, perhaps that isn't their true sword? I have long held the belief that the Ice we see is a more socially acceptable, rather than one of the swords of the Others.  

I guess that what I am trying to say is that perhaps the assistance that HR wasn't magic or a poison, but giving him the Stark's true sword. A human, wielding a blade designed by the Others, powered by the magic of the CotF could result in a scary combination. A combination that could result in Ned losing focus and killing everyone, except HR somehow. IDK, I think I am explaining this poorly. 

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I don't think you're too far off. As ever some of the stuff we're told about Valyrian swords is contradictory and inconsistent, but there seems to be a very strong tradition among the big families of Westeros that they each need a family sword of totemic significance.

The Lannisters are an interesting example of this in that they have no sword. They did have one but lost it, They are the richest family in Westeros but somehow are unable to buy another in a world littered with them. Other families won't part with theirs because they are family swords but Essos is just across the way, so there must be something more than just steel involved.

Ice is [or was] a totem not a fighting sword, which is why it was split into two more manageable ones when it was captured by the Lannisters.

There are hints that the two halves of Ice may one day be united, perhaps by Tobho Mott's old apprentice, but if there is actually a significance to the family swords, what of the old ones, which were replaced after the conquest by Valyrian blades. Many are perhaps among those making the iron throne, but Dawn clearly isn't and there's no hint that the original Ice is either.

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I view the Azor Ahai tale as an oral history told in the form of an allegory. If we view Planetos and it's moon as twin celestial bodies, then it is sister to the moon in the sky. The three swords forged were the three times the Children turned to magic. The first sword forged in water would be the hammer of waters. The second sword forged in the heart of a lion were the white walkers created to fight back. The third sword was the comet that hit Planetos right in Nissa's heart, cracking the seasons. As the comet was falling, the meteor shower trailing behind would have looked like fiery swords coming down from the sky. In the tales these falling meteors became the first nights watch riding out to the battle for the dawn. They could also be described as dragons. The Children believe they broke their moon by calling down the comet.

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19 hours ago, Tucu said:

I think the colour is important but not sure how. The simplest explanation I have is that they have the colour of what binds them to the physical world. White mist for the WW, shade of the evening for the Undying and the smoke from Mel's fires for her babies.

For Ned's grey shadows I am not sure. Is this to mark the Starks as a middle-man between the white shadows and the black shadows of the NW? Or maybe they were part of a transition from one to the other? A reference to the Night's King and Brandon the Breaker.

The idea of grey shadow's are interesting. Grey in general is interesting as I think of it as a Stark color, but Ned tells us this about the color grey when he sits the iron throne. "Ned was clad in a white linen doublet with the direwolf of Stark on the breast; his black wool cloak was fastened at the collar by his silver hand of office. Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth." So, when choosing what to wear to sit the Iron Throne, Ned choose a white doublet and a black cloak. This includes the sigil of his house, a grey direwolf, although the color grey is not mentioned along with the wolf, we know the Stark's grey direwolf quite well. And they he tells as Black, White and Grey, ALL the shades of TRUTH!! Maybe the shadows work just like the truth, only black, white and grey. The other colors are only a reflection of the world around them, not the source. And it could even be argued that grey is merely a blending of the black and white, which is why I do see these colors as opposites, at least symbolically, when considering the shadows. But maybe the blending color is as important as the colors that create it!

We have this...

Quote

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took. AGOT-Prologue

Black, white and grey (I'm ignoring the green aspect of the grey right now) are colors that are first associated with the Other's. Or White Walkers, what ever these shadows that emerge to face Waymar Royce. So this does tie the Stark's to the Other's, but perhaps it's meant to show us that the balance lies in the Other's, in the Starks?

Also...

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"He's not like the others," Jon said. "He never makes a sound. That's why I named him Ghost. That, and because he's white. The others are all dark, grey or black." AGOT-Jon I

The Stark direwolves mirror this color idea. One white, one black and four grey. Are these wolves "Black and White and Grey, all the shades of truth." Does this set Rickon and Jon up as opposites in some way? At least in the concept of justice, fairness, truth? What could that mean for the children with the grey wolves? Are they the middle ground? Perhaps they all need to coexist, much like Eddard's color choices the day he sat the Iron Throne? 

ETA: I do think it's interesting that Ned is wearing a black cloak while he sit's the Iron Throne. I think that in every other instance where a color is applied to his cloak, it's grey or grey and white. Which is the color that the Stark men seem to where. What could it mean that Ned chooses to cloak himself in black? Perhaps it doesn't mean anything more than GRRM needing Ned to where white, black and grey so he could use his line about the colors of truth, and I am overthinking the rest.

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There are hints that the two halves of Ice may one day be united, perhaps by Tobho Mott's old apprentice, but if there is actually a significance to the family swords, what of the old ones, which were replaced after the conquest by Valyrian blades. Many are perhaps among those making the iron throne, but Dawn clearly isn't and there's no hint that the original Ice is either.

Hard to say where the original Ice might be (or what it looked like), but one thing that stuck out to me is the idea that Aegon took the swords of the northmen when Torrhen knelt, but somewhere it's stated that those swords did not make their way into the Iron Throne, or perhaps I am misinterpreting. I am not sure if it's an SSM or if it was in Fire and Blood. It seems like something I have read recently. What did Aegon I do with those swords, if he kept them, but did not put them to use in his monstrously large throne?

Yes, it's from Fire and Blood. "From that day to this day, Torrhen Stark is remembered as the King Who Knelt... but no northman left his burned bones beside the Trident, and the swords Aegon collected from Lord Stark and his vassals were not twisted nor melted nor bent". Fire and Blood: Aegon's Conquest (p23).

Age wise, this Valyrian steel sword Ice must have already been in Stark hands, so what sword did Torrhen lay at Aegon's feet? Could it have been the original Ice? And he gave this symbol of the North to Aegon, just like he gave up the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter? Is that sword important? Is that crown important? I would like to think both the sword and the crown have made there way back to the crypts, but that is probably to fairy tale for GRRM.

Dorne was never conquested in Aegon's time, so Dawn never could have become part of the Iron Throne, but your mentioning it now makes me wonder if part of Aegon's insistence to capture Dorne was because he wished to capture the sword Dawn? If it's such a special, one of a kind sword, then perhaps it was part of what Aegon sought when he laid his gaze on Westeros? Tinfoil, I know, but I can't seem to help it.

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19 hours ago, JNR said:

We're told, outright, that the weirwoods are immortal and that they perceive time differently:

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For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak.

And the shade of the evening, we know, also comes from trees in Essos.

So the premise that the weirwoods (not just trees, but immortal trees, that can introduce information from far in the future if they aren't killed) are the ultimate source of all forms of prescience seems quite plausible. 

Time, in the sense of chronological patterns, does not seem to matter to the weirwoods, and probably the Shade of the Evening tree's, either. It's interesting to me that the tree that is used to explain this is not a weirwood or it's seed, but an oak and an acorn. Which has some Garth Greenhand imagery about it. The idea that a person is being fed information from the future indicates that there is a time loop in play, and that the future has already happened, even if that seems impossible to people who are living in the present. But we also get the idea that Dany will see images of things that will never be. How does that work? Is it because someone in the past or present has changed what had previously happened in the future? Is there a DeLorean in Westeros?

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11 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Hard to say where the original Ice might be (or what it looked like), but one thing that stuck out to me is the idea that Aegon took the swords of the northmen when Torrhen knelt, but somewhere it's stated that those swords did not make their way into the Iron Throne, or perhaps I am misinterpreting. I am not sure if it's an SSM or if it was in Fire and Blood. It seems like something I have read recently. What did Aegon I do with those swords, if he kept them, but did not put them to use in his monstrously large throne?

Yes, it's from Fire and Blood. "From that day to this day, Torrhen Stark is remembered as the King Who Knelt... but no northman left his burned bones beside the Trident, and the swords Aegon collected from Lord Stark and his vassals were not twisted nor melted nor bent". Fire and Blood: Aegon's Conquest (p23).

Age wise, this Valyrian steel sword Ice must have already been in Stark hands, so what sword did Torrhen lay at Aegon's feet? Could it have been the original Ice? And he gave this symbol of the North to Aegon, just like he gave up the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter? Is that sword important? Is that crown important? I would like to think both the sword and the crown have made there way back to the crypts, but that is probably to fairy tale for GRRM.

My interpretation is just that the swords of the Northman were collected undamaged, in contrast to people who resisted, whose swords were collected as melted twisted metal after their holders were cooked by dragon fire. 

If Ice is too big for Ned to use in battle, it likely was too big for Torrhen, who would have left it at Winterfell and gone off to fight with a mo practical weapon. 

This does bring up the interesting question of whether Valyrian steel is part of the iron throne.  Houses like Harren and Dondorian likely had Valyrian steel and those houses are gone, so what happened to them? 

I think we are going to find reforging happens more often than we think, and lots of the lost sword, such as Blackfyre and Brightroar, are still around. 

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16 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

We aren't told a lot about the fight at the TOJ, but I suspect that we can tie a few things together. Ice, as we see it, is not designed for combat but is a ceremonial blade. I personally think that this doesn't make sense, as we see numerous houses use their Blade's in combat (heartsbane, Longclaw, both Targaryen swords, Red Rain, Nightfall, etc.). It follows that Ice should be able to be used in combat. 

If we combine the fact that House Swords are designed to be used and that the Starks sword isn't, perhaps that isn't their true sword? I have long held the belief that the Ice we see is a more socially acceptable, rather than one of the swords of the Others.  

I guess that what I am trying to say is that perhaps the assistance that HR wasn't magic or a poison, but giving him the Stark's true sword. A human, wielding a blade designed by the Others, powered by the magic of the CotF could result in a scary combination. A combination that could result in Ned losing focus and killing everyone, except HR somehow. IDK, I think I am explaining this poorly. 

I have wondered if Ice wasn't used at the toj. I know that there is an SSM that states that Ice was "probably too heavy and clumsy"  to be used  in battle. But as you point out, we see other Valyrian steel great swords used on a day to day basis, and in battle. So, it can be done, but why isn't Ice used this way. Is Ice that much bigger than other greatswords? Are we being mislead a bit? "Probably" does leave the door open, I think. I personally think that Ice was used in whatever confrontation happened between Ned and SAD, and that Ice is the reason that Ned walked away. I actually think that in this battle with SAD, perhps Ned lost his first sword, was prepared to die, and then Howland somehow gave Ned Ice to use. We see Theon carting Ice around for Ned's use, perhaps Howland served this purpose amongst "Ned's wraiths". What could Valyrian steel do to the white blade of Dawn? We see Ice in our story, but in the present, we have never seen Dawn. I think the sword Ice and it's current form as two smaller swords are important to the end of the story, more important that a mythological weapon that hasn't been seen for 15+ years. 

I do think you are onto something with the idea that Howland changed the game for Ned with a sword, but I think it was Ice. I don't think Ned felt he could/should use it, but for some reason, something happened (Howland, probably changed the game) and Ice made the difference that day.

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