Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

[alienarea]

I believe it's all connected to the musical Hair. You know, Hammer of the Waters, age of Aquarius, something goes on there.

"When the moon is in the seventh house ..."

[Janneyc1]

10 minutes ago, JNR said:

And finally, the canon says the Hammer(s) happened via magic.  GRRM said the weather has a magical basis.  So there's no contradiction there... whereas there is a contradiction if the Long Night was caused by a comet somehow shattering an imagined moon (for which there's no evidence except a myth).  It's a little hard to believe there were once two moons in the sky and the only reference to it we ever get is this one dubious myth

How certain are we of the timeline between the breaking of the Arm of Dorne and the Pact? I have been looking to try and combine the various myths and ideas to see if we can't find something. 

1. The timeline of events has been questioned, a lot. We know of generic tales and roughly when things happened, but nothing concrete. I think multiple events happened at the same time or at least proceeded a lot quicker than we currently know. 

2. We are told that the wonky seasons are magically based and that the Long Night was magically based. 

3. GRRM has said that only Westeros connects to the Lands of Always Winter, but we have tales of demons and the like in Essos during the Long Night. So I think that at some point, Essos was connected to LAW. 

4. We are told of numerous attempts to break disconnect Essos from Westeros, via the Hammer of the Waters. 

5. We have a few myths that correlate Celestial bodies (moons, comets, etc.) with Dragons and the Long Night. 

in synthesizing all of this, I am left wondering if the attempts to break the Arm of Dorne and the Neck were really just attempts to disconnect LAW from the rest of the world. We don't have any evidence of this happening in Essos, but we also don't have anyone that could give us that evidence either. What I am trying to say is that maybe the CotF and the FM made their pact during the Long Night, called down a comet to try and either destroy the LAW or at least separate it from the rest of the world. This comet strike could have broken the Arm of Dorne, flooded the Neck, and done somthing similar to the other side of Essos. 

 

Different note, I would love it if the next supplementary book released was the Diary of Lomas Longstrider. The world building potential would be amazing. 

[Melifeather]

IMO the wonky seasons are due to a continual time loop inspired by the Marvel comics character Dr Strange, who placed time into a continual loop using the Eye of Aggamotto in order to defeat Dormammu, which seems to be the inspiration for the Great Other coming out of the far north.

Maybe the original Ice is being used like the Eye of Aggamotto? The Eye contains the Time Stone, which of course alters and manipulates time. The Time Stone is just one of the Infinity Stones that are remnants of six singularities that existed before the Big Bang and were compressed into stones after the universe began and dispersed throughout the cosmos.

Ice may have been forged out of the Time Stone part of the meteor, whereas Dawn could be one of the other singularities which are:

Space Stone: capable of generating wormholes

Mind Stone: controls people's minds and projects energy

Reality Stone: can turn anything into dark matter, sucking the life force out of people.

Power Stone: can increase the user's strength

Soul Stone: can manipulate the soul and essence of a person

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, it isn't now.

If it wasn't solid then... when this impressive curtain wall made of mighty basalt blocks that each took a hundred men to lift was first built... you have to laugh at the stupidity of whoever built the wall.  I mean, seriously, maybe you don't build such a structure on unstable turf.

"We built a third castle. It burned down, fell over, and sank into the swamp." -- Holy Grail

This is my point, if it was built 10,000 years ago, the ground was solid 10,000 years ago, but not necessarily 9,000 years ago. 

[redriver]

15 hours ago, JNR said:

There isn't any text to support the idea of sorcerers steering comets into moons... and even the myth associated with the trader from Qarth, that seems to have inspired LmL at a basic level, just says:

From Daenerys 4,ACOK

Quote

"We knew you were to come to us," the wizard king said."A thousand years ago we knew,and have been waiting all this time.We sent the comet to show you the way."

Into moons,no.But the idea of comet steering, yes.

I'm not stating that anyone actively controlled a comet,but that the greenseer asked for something big to slow the FM down and that's what they got.

For the record,though I'm widely drawing on LML's work I don't necessarily subscribe to all of it.And I was posting on this subject several years before LmL,but I do like much of his analysis.

[Brad Stark]

Dubious at best, the Warlocks are taking credit for the comet but I think it is clear they are full of BS

[redriver]

2 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Dubious at best, the Warlocks are taking credit for the comet but I think it is clear they are full of BS

Yep.I'd have to agree!

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, redriver said:

From Daenerys 4,ACOK

Into moons,no.But the idea of comet steering, yes.

I'm not stating that anyone actively controlled a comet,but that the greenseer asked for something big to slow the FM down and that's what they got.

For the record,though I'm widely drawing on LML's work I don't necessarily subscribe to all of it.And I was posting on this subject several years before LmL,but I do like much of his analysis.

In addition to the problems JNR brought up, if there had previously been a second moon, we wouldn’t just have one tale from Qarth concerning it.  Every civilization would have their own tale of the time that there had been two moons in the sky.  Yet, it’s only mentioned once from one source.  Even the Worldbook’s myths from other lands doesn’t address a second moon.

My guess, is the “second moon” may have been a comet that briefly started orbiting around the planet until it exploded in the upper atmosphere.  Perhaps passing in front of the sun for some of the observers before it exploded, sending flaming debris down.

My other thought is that the red comet in ACOK may have been the same comet that Rhaegar observed, perhaps slowly making consecutive long distance orbits around the planet, gradually being drawn closer and closer on each pass.  This would decrease the time between the sighting of the comet and make the comet appear larger after each sighting.  

If true, then the next sighting of the comet may be when the comet ultimately makes landfall.  Perhaps, I don’t know, maybe making landfall in the glacier north of the Frostfangs, the Heart of Winter.

[redriver]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

In addition to the problems JNR brought up, if there had previously been a second moon, we wouldn’t just have one tale from Qarth concerning it.  Every civilization would have their own tale of the time that there had been two moons in the sky.  Yet, it’s only mentioned once from one source.  Even the Worldbook’s myths from other lands doesn’t address a second moon.

My guess, is the “second moon” may have been a comet that briefly started orbiting around the planet until it exploded in the upper atmosphere.  Perhaps passing in front of the sun for some of the observers before it exploded, sending flaming debris down.

My other thought is that the red comet in ACOK may have been the same comet that Rhaegar observed, perhaps slowly making consecutive long distance orbits around the planet, gradually being drawn closer and closer on each pass.  This would decrease the time between the sighting of the comet and make the comet appear larger after each sighting.  

If true, then the next sighting of the comet may be when the comet ultimately makes landfall.  Perhaps, I don’t know, maybe making landfall in the glacier north of the Frostfangs, the Heart of Winter.

I see no problems with this interpretation.After all we are talking about how primitive people observe and interpret celestial phenomena.The moon wandering too close to the sun could have been a comet that indeed wandered too close.(Could have been a partial eclipse scenario too.Hence the Shadow)

Could the sun have caused it to explode though?Maybe.We know Shoemaker-Levi broke up due to Jupiter's gravitational pull but perhaps the heat of the sun could have caused an explosion quite far out.In this situation you would expect most of the ejecta to be swallowed up by the sun itself.But that depends on the energy and force of the explosion-some of it might have been blasted out of the sun's pull towards planetos.

I like your thinking!

[Melifeather]

From One Strange Rock, one of the episodes claims that we have had five mass extinctions on Earth. Over 99.9% of all species that have ever lived are gone. 252 million years ago our Earth became toxic. This was way before the dinosaurs. It’s called the Great Dying. It began with a whole host of super volcanoes erupting and the oceans became acidic. We are all descendents of a species that managed to survive. Scientists believe a reptile like creature was able to survive underground and evolved into a warm blooded mammal. Doesn’t this sound like inspiration for the children of the forest? 

[redriver]

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

I believe it's all connected to the musical Hair. You know, Hammer of the Waters, age of Aquarius, something goes on there.

"When the moon is in the seventh house ..."

You can associate the Nissa Nissa fable with celestial ages if you so wish!

This has to do with a phenomenon known as the Precession of the Equinoxes.You can google it or accept my very brief explanation.The precession is a cycle of roughly 25,000 years during which the moon is seen to occupy each of the zodiac houses in turn as they revolve slowly behind it.

We are entering the Aquarius phase now.So each of the temperings can be seen as not just a question of how but when.Using our own zodiac,water would be the time of Aquarius,the lion would be the time of Leo and Nissa Nissa?Probably Gemini given the double barreled name and the twin "moons".

Of course the good people of Asshai were probably using a different zodiac......

[Melifeather]

23 minutes ago, redriver said:

You can associate the Nissa Nissa fable with celestial ages if you so wish!

This has to do with a phenomenon known as the Precession of the Equinoxes.You can google it or accept my very brief explanation.The precession is a cycle of roughly 25,000 years during which the moon is seen to occupy each of the zodiac houses in turn as they revolve slowly behind it.

We are entering the Aquarius phase now.So each of the temperings can be seen as not just a question of how but when.Using our own zodiac,water would be the time of Aquarius,the lion would be the time of Leo and Nissa Nissa?Probably Virgo given the double barreled name and the twin "moons".

Of course the good people of Asshai were probably using a different zodiac......

I’m familiar with the precession of the equinoxes...the two moons could be our current age of Pisces - the two fish. 

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, redriver said:

You can associate the Nissa Nissa fable with celestial ages if you so wish!

This has to do with a phenomenon known as the Precession of the Equinoxes.You can google it or accept my very brief explanation.The precession is a cycle of roughly 25,000 years during which the moon is seen to occupy each of the zodiac houses in turn as they revolve slowly behind it.

We are entering the Aquarius phase now.So each of the temperings can be seen as not just a question of how but when.Using our own zodiac,water would be the time of Aquarius,the lion would be the time of Leo and Nissa Nissa?Probably Gemini given the double barreled name and the twin "moons".

Of course the good people of Asshai were probably using a different zodiac......

I was of course a bit silly, but I'm very aware of the Precession of the Equinoxes. We could discuss the true age of the Sphinx and whether it was originally a lion because it may have been built when we entered the age of leo.

Now back to Westeros ...

[Brad Stark]

The 25000 year procession is too long, if we are speculating something special coming around again. Of course we don't know if Planetos even has a procession or if it is the same length as Earth's.  But everything else, GRRM either kept the same as Earth or made longer, not shorter. I doubt anything more than 15,000 years ago is relevant to our story, and it is possible even less than half that to The Long Night, Pact, arrival of First Men and whatever happened in Ashai. 

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, redriver said:

Yep.I'd have to agree!

me too

[Melifeather]

17 hours ago, redriver said:

You can associate the Nissa Nissa fable with celestial ages if you so wish!

This has to do with a phenomenon known as the Precession of the Equinoxes.You can google it or accept my very brief explanation.The precession is a cycle of roughly 25,000 years during which the moon is seen to occupy each of the zodiac houses in turn as they revolve slowly behind it.

We are entering the Aquarius phase now.So each of the temperings can be seen as not just a question of how but when.Using our own zodiac,water would be the time of Aquarius,the lion would be the time of Leo and Nissa Nissa?Probably Gemini given the double barreled name and the twin "moons".

Of course the good people of Asshai were probably using a different zodiac......

Not that it matters, but it couldn’t be Gemini unless the precession became a procession and jumped past Aries and Taurus.

[JNR]

23 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

How certain are we of the timeline between the breaking of the Arm of Dorne and the Pact?

Theoretically it's all up for debate.  Science hasn't been invented yet in this world.

However, I'd be surprised if the story wasn't basically accurate in the sense that those events both happened, an extensive period passed in between them, and the Pact was many thousands of years ago.

23 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

GRRM has said that only Westeros connects to the Lands of Always Winter, but we have tales of demons and the like in Essos during the Long Night.

The first bit is objectively true and comes from the best possible source. 

The second, if I understand what you mean, comes from the World book, which also includes references to Ser Elmo and Ser Kermit.  It applies to a part of the world that GRRM has told us in interviews Westeros' maesters (such as Yandel, author of the World book) know virtually nothing about.

I'll take GRRM over Yandel on almost any subject.

21 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

This is my point, if it was built 10,000 years ago, the ground was solid 10,000 years ago, but not necessarily 9,000 years ago. 

Yes, that's my point too. The sequence would be: solid ground on which the vast curtain wall of gigantic block was built... then the Hammer... then bogs and marsh.

So, in short, what we see at Moat Cailin constitutes evidence of the historical reality of the Hammer. 

21 hours ago, redriver said:

Into moons,no.But the idea of comet steering, yes.

That's from a HOTU vision that we know is deceptive and dishonest, though.  It goes on:

Quote

"We have knowledge to share with you," said a warrior in shining emerald armor, "and magic weapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered."

We soon learn the Undying are anything but the above, in terms of appearance or behavior or motives, and there are no magic weapons given to Dany either. Instead Dany was nearly killed.

I'm not knocking you personally, redriver, I'm just pointing out that I don't think there was a second moon and that a comet smashed it and created the Long Night. Whatever else LmL imagined in his 100K-word theory, I haven't even really read. 

[JNR]

I should probably also acknowledge the good work done by many scientists in creating the closely related Endor Extinction Event Theory, which posits that the destruction of the new Death Star in the third Star Wars movie would certainly have killed off all major life on Endor, including the appallingly cute and profoundly annoying ewoks.

This is what would have happened to them, in the opinion of the analysts (with whom I concur):

Quote

No animal larger than a few kilograms and incapable of long sheltered hibernation could survive the Endorian calamity. The air might even have been poisoned and deoxygenated for a few years until simple plant life could return to growth. If so then it is possible that all animal life perished. In any case any ewok on the surface who was not equipped with impressive high-technology survival gear and a nuclear shelter must have died.

For those unfortunate beings not painlessly obliterated by the impact concussions, the initial night of celebration would linger on and on with days of darkness. A chill would fall, the waters would turn to ice and the vegetation would wilt into death or dormancy, depending on species. Provided that radioactivity was insignificant and the air remained modestly breathable (a very generous assumption) the doomed ewoks might survive for days or weeks huddling around bonfires, until they starved.

This is what would have happened to humans all over GRRMworld, if a second moon had ever existed and had been shattered (like the second Death Star) by anything at all. 

Fortunately, it very likely never did... or ASOIAF would be a much duller story about amoebas, lichen, bacteria, etc., struggling for power and trying to figure out prophecies, as opposed to complex life forms such as human beings. 

(Though I'm sure they would all be morally grey amoebas, lichen, and bacteria.)

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/12/2019 at 5:45 AM, lalt said:

Yeah, that and the fact iitself that Jon ended up living in Donal's quarters. But there's more than that...

AA was a blacksmith and we should keep in mind that Ygritte associated Jon to the "red star" the free folk calls The Thief that in the Seven Kingdoms goes by the name of... The Smith.

Add to it that Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna. We may believe or not the official version of that story, but maybe he did that in "free folk" terms.

I do consider Rhaegar somewhat analogous to a blacksmith in the story.  Bear in mind, I’m extremely skeptical of the idea of Rhaegar being Jon’s father.  But I also acknowledge that Rhaegar took an extreme interest in Lyanna at the Harrenhal tourney.

To be a metaphoric blacksmith, doesn’t in my mind, necessarily mean that you had to be the father of the child/sword.  But it should mean that you had to have had a hand in his creation.  So I’m not sure if Rhaegar believed that he necessarily had to be the one to father a child with Lyanna.  I don’t think that Rhaegar’s plans were that simple.  It could be that Rhaegar instead was trying to manipulate certain events to bring Lyanna together with someone else.  

As for the thief and the smith, and the red star I’d look to a character who has operated both south and north of the Wall.  I believe that Bloodraven could fit the bill.

South of the Wall he may very well had a hand on directing which family line House Targaryen ran through, being a blacksmith behind the scenes in steering the line towards Aegon IV and his descendants.

While North of the Wall he may have turned into the thief, perhaps stealing Bran for his own purposes.

[St Daga]

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I do consider Rhaegar somewhat analogous to a blacksmith in the story.  Bear in mind, I’m extremely skeptical of the idea of Rhaegar being Jon’s father.  But I also acknowledge that Rhaegar took an extreme interest in Lyanna at the Harrenhal tourney.

To be a metaphoric blacksmith, doesn’t in my mind, necessarily mean that you had to be the father of the child/sword.  But it should mean that you had to have had a hand in his creation.  So I’m not sure if Rhaegar believed that he necessarily had to be the one to father a child with Lyanna.  I don’t think that Rhaegar’s plans were that simple.  It could be that Rhaegar instead was trying to manipulate certain events to bring Lyanna together with someone else.  

As for the thief and the smith, and the red star I’d look to a character who has operated both south and north of the Wall.  I believe that Bloodraven could fit the bill.

South of the Wall he may very well had a hand on directing which family line House Targaryen ran through, being a blacksmith behind the scenes in steering the line towards Aegon IV and his descendants.

While North of the Wall he may have turned into the thief, perhaps stealing Bran for his own purposes.

It's interesting that you see Rhaegar as a blacksmith. I have never considered him in that way before. He is actually more the item/weapon/alloy that was beaten by the smith, if we consider Robert to be the smith, based on his hammer imagery and what happened at the Trident. But ... the red star (red comet) does seem to tie to Rhaegar, so with the Thief/Smith being a red star, that could indeed hint at Rhaegar. I have to admit I had not given it a thought before but it has something tempting about it. However, the Thief/Smith is actually a "wanderer" not a star, so that might be an important distinction, but I am thinking on the fly here, and maybe am making poor connections.

I do have a hard time escaping from Robert's "smith" imagery however, and if one ties the Smith/Thief to the Red Wanderer idea and how that ties to a good time to steal a woman, who might happen to be our apparently kidnapped Stark maiden. I think at one point @Feather Crystal had mentioned the idea that Robert was somehow behind or part of Lyanna's kidnapping, and this idea suddenly struck me as fitting the Thief/Smith stealing a maid, and how that could apply to Robert and Lyanna. 

Rhaegar is certainly connected to red imagery, with the rubies on his armor. So, a red star could perhaps be compared to a ruby, and while Ghost's eyes are compared to garnet's or blood or embers, and at one time his "red eyes drank up the stars". I actually thought it was Ghost's eyes that are likened to red star's but it's Melisandre's eyes. There are some interesting "red star" connections in the text.  As much as I think the red wanderer could fit Robert, Robert doesn't really have any red star imagery around him, or much red at all. Unless one considers the red comet was sighted not long after Robert's death. 

Sorry about the rambling thoughts, which might only make sense in my head because I just got off a long night shift.