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Black Crow

Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

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55 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Yes, and causal loops (eg, Bran isn't changing the past as written, he's discovering that he 'caused' it) feel just "GRRMy" enough that I don't think it's out of the question, even though I don't think that would be a good route to take Bran's magic. I just can't shake my uneasiness toward the way GRRM chose to write the passage where Bran is trying to speak to Eddard in the past--he doesn't shut the door outright, he leaves it ambiguous; that's enough to leave me worried.

I think that GRRM is giving us subtle hints that out-of-time Bran (3EC?) has been trying to repair mistakes done by BR and himself. His hints would be easy to dismiss by people not into time-manipulation

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4 hours ago, St Daga said:

I agree that I think that what we are seeing in Jon's story is representative of what happened to Jon's father in the past. I do think this is Ned (but I could see this as Arthur Dayne in several ways, as well), but an inconsistency that I see is that Jon and Ygritte did not have a child together, so I am not sure about Ned/Arthur being forced to stumble AND having a bastard from that same union. It would not surprise me at all if Wylla was Jon's mother, I just think it's a pseudonym for Lyanna, like we see Sansa having Alayne (which if you jumble the letters spells Lyaena :o) or the many identities that Arya is assuming in the course of her story.

Do you think the name Alenna was used by Lyanna/Ashara at some point? I know it is weird but when Robert lists names of Meryl, Becca and Aleena to Ned for Jon's mother before Ned saying her name was Wylla - Aleena sticks like a sore thumb to me because it starts and ends with letter a just like Ashara and Allyria? I always wonder who Aleena might be... Leeana > Aleena - Alayne > Lyaena ??? 

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23 hours ago, Black Crow said:

what I'm aiming at, and kindly ask you for your contribution, is a missing connection between House Targaryen and the Old Gods. 

How about this - though perhaps it's just another way of coming at the question from another angle...

Does Melisandre's oft-repeated prophecy concern House Targaryen, or the old gods?  Both?  Neither?

How is it that her prophecy comes from Asshai... yet she's fundamentally convinced it'll be fulfilled in Westeros?  Why does Maester Aemon seem to think he knows more about the prophecy's meaning than Mel does, and what's his personal investment in it?  (How are Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised connected?)

Also, what's with the deep-seated antagonism between the old gods and the red priests?  Where's that come from, and how long has it been around?

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12 hours ago, JNR said:

@The Snowfyre Chorus also thinks this, and it's an interesting case IMO. 

Yes. - the KofLT was Ned Stark, IMO.

Just seems logical. No need to unnecessarily involve magic, or romance, or Targs.  Just a friendly, young, sympathetic Stark with a sense of honor, and enough training in the joust to defeat a few household knights.  Lyanna would fit, except for that last part.

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6 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Yes. - the KofLT was Ned Stark, IMO.

Just seems logical. No need to unnecessarily involve magic, or romance, or Targs.  Just a friendly, young, sympathetic Stark with a sense of honor, and enough training in the joust to defeat a few household knights.  Lyanna would fit, except for that last part.

I think the Neddard was the KotLT as well. Perhaps he used the weirwood face as a way to not only connect with what he knew of Howland's story, but also as well as reconnect with the north and the gods of his childhood. Ned was placed in the Vale at the age of eight and might not have had much opportunity to embrace the religion of the First Men until he was near his family again, and at Harrenhal, which has its weirwood heart tree, as well as the proximity to the Isle of Faces. I do think Lyanna probably was suspected of being the mystery knight, which might have caused her some trouble, however!

20 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Also, what's with the deep-seated antagonism between the old gods and the red priests?  Where's that come from, and how long has it been around?

Nice point! It does seem like Melisandre in her practice of worshiping R'hller does want to destroy the old gods, or what she thinks are the eyes and ears of the old gods, the weirwoods! 

 

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I wonder whether or not this is a typical Targaryen funerary right - GRRM says they burnt their dead -, random improvisation on Dany's part, or something else entirely; maybe the "whispering of the stars" hints that Quaithe may have been reaching out as far back as AGOT.

This is a good point. I have always wondered if this was the Dothraki custom or if Dany just had a sense about it. It had never occurred to me that this might be Targaryen funeral pyre tradition. I suppose she could have learned this from Viserys, but if so, we never hear of any type of funeral for Viserys and the mention of ice and north throws me a bit if it's Targaryen tradition.

 

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1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Do you think the name Alenna was used by Lyanna/Ashara at some point? I know it is weird but when Robert lists names of Meryl, Becca and Aleena to Ned for Jon's mother before Ned saying her name was Wylla - Aleena sticks like a sore thumb to me because it starts and ends with letter a just like Ashara and Allyria? I always wonder who Aleena might be... Leeana > Aleena - Alayne > Lyaena ??? 

I do think it's possible that Robert has heard something about this name.  Although it could be casual conversation, it seems to me that Robert is pushing at Ned, he seems to be looking for something in his line of questions. Cersei throw's some possibilities (not names) for the mother of Jon Snow in Ned's face in the godswood of the Red Keep, so I think there is some talk or type of investigation that she and Robert are aware of. It is certainly odd that Ned never named his bastards mother, even if he just made up a name to end the speculation. Aleena is also very similar to Lyanna if you change the order of the letters and sounds.   Aleena/Lee-a-na/Lyanna, seems to fit nicely!   It certainly serves as a trigger for Ned, who at first is cool with Robert, and then get's angry! Wylla also has a cadence similar to Lya, spelled with letters that can easily be picked out of the name Wylla.

 

Quote

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."
 
"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"
 
Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."
 
"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."
 
"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."
 
"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed." He slapped a hand on his knee. "Well, I'll not press you if you feel so strong about it, though I swear, at times you're so prickly you ought to take the hedgehog as your sigil." AGOT-Eddard II
 

I find this conversation with Ned and Robert quite interesting. It's peculiar and revealing all at the same time. This is the first time we get a mention of Baelor the Blessed in the story. It's just a name drop, but it hints to us that whomever Baelor is, he must have been some kind of prude. And it seems like he was. But a prude that is linked to a sibling incest by marriage, although it seems he fought hard not to consummate his marriage. To the point that he locked his sister-wife in relative prison, and not just this sister, but his other two sisters up as well. Away from himself? Away from temptation? And while Robert claims that no women wanted Baelor the Blessed in her bed, one woman that we know very much wanted Baelor in her bed was Daena Targaryen, sister and wife to Baelor! Ned has several ties to Baelor in the story. I think it's all connected but of course, I do ride on the tinfoil train! :wideeyed:

 

Edited by St Daga
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23 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This is a good point. I have always wondered if this was the Dothraki custom or if Dany just had a sense about it. It had never occurred to me that this might be Targaryen funeral pyre tradition. I suppose she could have learned this from Viserys, but if so, we never hear of any type of funeral for Viserys and the mention of ice and north throws me a bit if it's Targaryen tradition.

It's hard to say, because I don't recall the exact lines off hand, but I do think it's said that the Dothraki burn their dead as well. In either case, I think the more significant factor is that, by the time of the Drogo Pyre chapter, Dany appears to have figured out what she's doing:
 

Quote

"I understand that you loved him," Ser Jorah said in a voice thick with despair. "I loved my lady wife once, yet I did not die with her. You are my queen, my sword is yours, but do not ask me to stand aside as you climb on Drogo's pyre. I will not watch you burn."

"Is that what you fear?" Dany kissed him lightly on his broad forehead. "I am not such a child as that, sweet ser."

"You do not mean to die with him? You swear it, my queen?"

"I swear it," she said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms that by rights were hers.

What is the source of her certitude? Did she mentally connect dots that no prior Targaryen attempting to wake dragons had connected, working off existing lore, or was she working off of divine inspiration and intuition? I've always read it as the latter, since the pyre follows a long string of dragon dreams, but a potential crackpot layer that might be added on top of that is that AFFC raises the possibility of dreams and visions not always being organic--that in some cases, they might be intentional manipulation.

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1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Also, what's with the deep-seated antagonism between the old gods and the red priests?  Where's that come from, and how long has it been around?

The red priests want to be the only religion.  They burn statues of the Seven as well.  Do we have any evidence the First Men's religion is in any way hostile towards the red priests? 

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2 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Do we have any evidence the First Men's religion is in any way hostile towards the red priests? 

Well, here's what I had in mind: 

Quote

"Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still... they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists."

That's the ghost of High Heart, speaking to Thoros. 

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1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Yes. - the KofLT was Ned Stark, IMO.

Just seems logical. No need to unnecessarily involve magic, or romance, or Targs.  Just a friendly, young, sympathetic Stark with a sense of honor, and enough training in the joust to defeat a few household knights.  Lyanna would fit, except for that last part.

JNR and I have gone around and around with this topic in another thread.  In my opinion GRRM isn’t always very realistic when it comes to the limitations of his characters.  Tyrion Lannister being the best example of this.  So I can see GRRM putting Lyanna in the armor of TKOTLT.

My main problem with it is that it makes Howland a very passive observer in his own revenge scheme.  So I prefer a theory where Lyanna rides the horse, and Howland provides an assist using his own voodoo (whether magical or mundane take your pick)

Of course I’ve always been fond of theories involving the unnecessary use of magic.  :D

Edited by Frey family reunion

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21 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Of course I’ve always been fond of theories involving the unnecessary use of magic.  :D

Lol.  This is true!  

 

21 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

GRRM isn’t always very realistic when it comes to the limitations of his characters.  Tyrion Lannister being the best example of this.

Fair. Though I think GRRM has owned his mistake on Tyrion... and we're not likely to see ninja dwarf gymnastics again in ASOIAF.  

 

21 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

My main problem with it is that it makes Howland a very passive observer in his own revenge scheme.

Not sure what his options were, though.  He may have been able to ride a horse... but the likely outcome of entering the lists was complete embarrassment and exposure once he'd been thrown on his ass in the dirt.  So the way I see it is that Ned did Howland a solid.  And that's what kicked off the remarkable friendship between the two.

 

Edited by The Snowfyre Chorus

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3 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

No, no, no.  RLJ is most certainly false cheese.  I'd go so far as to call it "cheese like product."  :ack:

Trust your instincts, @alienarea  :thumbsup:

The force is strong in this one ... ;)

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4 hours ago, Tucu said:

I think that GRRM is giving us subtle hints that out-of-time Bran (3EC?) has been trying to repair mistakes done by BR and himself. His hints would be easy to dismiss by people not into time-manipulation

Yes, while Bloodraven may not have been able to affect past events, that doesn’t mean that Bran can’t/won’t in the future/hasn’t already.

Quote

“If Robb has to go, watch over him,” Bran entreated the old gods, as they watched him with the heart tree’s red eyes, ...

A faint wind sighed through the godswood and the red leaves stirred and whispered.  Summer bared his teeth.  “You hear them, boy?” A voice asked...

”They are my gods too,”...

”No, stay,” Bran commanded her.  “Tell me what you meant, about hearing the gods.”

Osha studied him.  “You asked them and they’re answering.  Open your ears, listen, you’ll hear.”

Bran listened.  “It’s only the wind,” he said after a moment, uncertain.  “The leaves are rustling.”

”Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods?”... “They see you, boy.  They hear you talking.  That rustling, that’s them talking back.”

 

Quote

... but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father.  Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time.  His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed.  “... let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive ... “

”Father.”  Bran’s voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves.  “Father, it’s me.  It’s Bran.  Brandon.”

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak.

In other words, Bran can communicate in a way.  He reached out to try and talk to his father, and a breeze rustled the leaves, causing Eddard to stop mid-sentence and look at the Weirwood.  Bran can reach back in time and create a wind.

And this was only the first time that he peered out from a weirwood into the past.  Assuming that he stays in the cave and his power grows,is it possible that his power over the wind will grow as well when he reaches back into the past?

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3 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

 

On 2/5/2019 at 8:56 PM, Black Crow said:

what I'm aiming at, and kindly ask you for your contribution, is a missing connection between House Targaryen and the Old Gods. 

How about this - though perhaps it's just another way of coming at the question from another angle...

Does Melisandre's oft-repeated prophecy concern House Targaryen, or the old gods?  Both?  Neither?

How is it that her prophecy comes from Asshai... yet she's fundamentally convinced it'll be fulfilled in Westeros?  Why does Maester Aemon seem to think

 

Another thing that connects Targaryens to the Old Gods in a broader stroke is Mance Rayder.

When he deserts and gets wounded beyond the wall (by a shadowcat?, don't remember exactly), he gets healed and his black cloak repaired with red silk, he kind of wears Targaryen colours, which lead to theories that he is Rhaegar, both sing songs to maids and so on.

And maybe Melisandre, who was Melony a long time ago, is originally a wildling girl kissed by fire, who got enslaved, sold to Ass'hai and ended up a red priest.

Unrelated, but in my mind connected as a visual are the bones in the weirwood in whitetree and the remains of the girl fried by Drogon.

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9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Yes, and causal loops (eg, Bran isn't changing the past as written, he's discovering that he 'caused' it) feel just "GRRMy" enough that I don't think it's out of the question, even though I don't think that would be a good route to take Bran's magic.

Well, GRRM has Bran "pull away frightened" when Ned looks up, so there's no test case there.

But there is later.  Let's not forget the very end of the chapter:

Quote

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

 "No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had

That seems quite straightforward to me.

So I think the odds are awfully good GRRM agrees with both of us that this would not "be a good route to take Bran's magic."   And if there comes a time when Hollywood ever adapts these books, I picture GRRM spelling out how insane it would be, how destructive to the logic of the tale, for greenseers to be able to alter the past at all.  What works in Back to the Future is not suitable for a serious project.

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9 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Interesting, why do you think Bran doesn't like the fact Weirwoods leaves look like bloody hands or the fact they have eyes? Are we supposed to learn Old Gods has an unavoidable connection to darkness and death? 

Well, I think Bran just finds them creepy, as pretty much all people do; I would consider that a pretty natural reaction.  Trees that have carved faces with eyes that sometimes seem to weep blood?  Creepy.

In fact, I bet the very term "weirwoods" derives from that reaction.

But what initially seems creepy doesn't always turn out to be creepy in these books, just as what begins as charming or beautiful may turn to be quite the opposite (a lesson Sansa seems slower to learn than most).

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7 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

RLJ is most certainly false cheese.  I'd go so far as to call it "cheese like product."

Hmm, strong phrasing there. 

I would say it smells... it may well be spoiled at this point... but that's not quite definitive enough for me.  There are real cheeses that smell too.

Just none I'd put on a pizza -- as in:

Quote

George said, "Yes. Hmm, there's excellent cheese on that pizza!"

Which brings us to:

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

JNR and I have gone around and around with this topic in another thread

The Velveeta factory, we could call it.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My main problem with it is that it makes Howland a very passive observer in his own revenge scheme.

That's always been a major objection of mine, too.

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3 hours ago, alienarea said:

And maybe Melisandre, who was Melony a long time ago, is originally a wildling girl kissed by fire, who got enslaved, sold to Ass'hai and ended up a red priest.

Now that's an interesting idea indeed.

Her true origin is something I'd like to know, without a doubt.  The one place we know she's not originally from is Asshai (which is also conclusive proof the app is not to be trusted -- even Ran doesn't like that bit).

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21 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@Sly Wren if RAD I can see Quaithe as Ashara but still to me Q does nothing but make Daenerys paranoid to people around her. So I won't say I like the character. 

Yes--her parenting style (if she's Dany's mother) leaves a lot to be desired. I do think there's a chance Quaithe is afraid--and thus only gets so close. 

But if this crackpot idea holds, Ashara/Quaithe is a true believer. And we've seen how true believers in cults are willing to behave in Martinlandia.

21 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I don't think Valyrians worshipped old gods - it is frustrating we don't know anything about their own religion except they named their dragons after their gods. 

Agreed--the tendency seems more to "become" gods: like Dany's vision of herself as the dragon. Not riding, but "being." Even though it leaves her mouth tasting of ash, as though all is destroyed, she loves the feeling.

The Targs seem to want to be gods.

 

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