A Faithful Knight in Winterfell

[Igziabeher]

16 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

A little white lie, because Ned never did become a knight. GRRM has added a couple exceptions. He says he was a page and then a squire, but not a squire in the "strict" sense, because Ned wasn't training to be a knight, and yet Ned was obligated to stay with Jon Arryn until he was sixteen. 

He was a ward in the same sense that Theon was to him(minus the whole being a post war hostage thing).  I'm sure Theon performed many page and squire like duties for Lord Stark during his time in Winterfell, but he wasn't being trained in knighthood either.

[rotting sea cow]

49 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

How do we know Robb wasn't knighted? Is there text somewhere that says this?

He follows the Old Gods.

Also, Ramsay has two squires and hasn't been knighted either and he wears fine armor during the Sack of Winterfell

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

He was a ward in the same sense that Theon was to him(minus the whole being a post war hostage thing).  I'm sure Theon performed many page and squire like duties for Lord Stark during his time in Winterfell, but he wasn't being trained in knighthood either.

Why would Ned be a ward like Theon? The Starks weren't defeated by the Arryn's in any recent war.

[Vaith]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Starks are presented as blood of the First Men in style and culture. During medieval times when the "Danes" lived in England they stole various pieces of metal from the English knights, but never resorted to creating whole suits of armor for themselves. The Andal culture has slowly infiltrated the northern houses and there are some northmen referred to as knights, but it's not wide spread. The only ones that could afford to purchase a suit of armor would be the lords from each house, but did they also automatically wear spurs? Becoming a knight was often referred to as "earning spurs", and Rickard had gold spurs.

You'll have to help me out with this one, because I don't recall any text supporting this. 

Even if House Hightower started out as a First Men house, they converted early on to the Faith, because it's said they avoided many conflicts, because of their staunch defense of the Faith. And then they are credited with being the main supporter of the Citadel. It's a bit fuzzy, but the Andal connection seems much stronger than the First Men connection. And after thousands of years it wouldn't be surprising if the Faith had gained control over it.

Brandon's age at death is listed as 20 when Catelyn was 18, so you are right about him being a couple years older, but the text implies Barbary was talking about his wedding day and not his engagement. It sounds like he spent years riding the rills, but somehow found the time to train and then be good enough to have his own squire by the time he rode to Kings Landing.

Spurs also have a practical use, for riding. Northern culture, that doesn't have many knights, probably wouldn't care if the Lord of Winterfell, who is a warrior, wears them without being a knight.

And the Danes were in England over a much shorter time period than between the Andal invasion and the present day. It would be like saying the Scots of the 14th century are going to have the same technology as they did in the 4th century BC, because they're both Celts, right?

From TWOIAF:

Quote

The origins of the Citadel are almost as mysterious as those of the Hightower itself. Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted. A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window, so he turned to wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers. It is said the prince had no greater pleasure in life than listening to these scholars argue with one another. When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to "Peremore's pets," that they might establish themselves and continue teaching, learning, and questing after truth. And so they did.

 

When the Andals came, the Hightowers were amongst the first lords of Westeros to welcome them. "Wars are bad for trade," said Lord Dorian Hightower, when he set aside his wife of twenty years, the mother of his children, to take an Andal princess as his bride. His grandson Lord Damon (the Devout) was the first to accept the Faith. To honor the new gods, he built the first sept in Oldtown and six more elsewhere in his realm. When he died prematurely of a bad belly, Septon Robeson became regent for his newborn son, ruling Oldtown in all but name for the next twenty years and ultimately becoming the first High Septon. The boy he raised and trained, Lord Triston Hightower, raised the Starry Sept in his honor after his passing.

So the Citadel clearly came before the Andals. Also, unlike the RL church, the Faith does not seem to have a monopoly on learning. Nowhere do we see a real association between the Faith and Citadel.

Sure, wedding day, engagement, either makes sense. I think Barbrey meant that in regards to southern ambitions. Characterising her as being mostly anti-Faith seems odd.

[Vaith]

Just now, Feather Crystal said:

Why would Ned be a ward like Theon? The Starks weren't defeated by the Arryn's in any recent war.

Theon is not just a ward. Ward is the polite term for "hostage," but the two do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Rhaena Targaryen was a ward of Jeyne Arryn during the Dance of the Dragons; this was is for protection. It's usually to grow connections between two houses and given Rickard's political ambitions, this makes sense.

[Melifeather]

Just now, rotting sea cow said:

He follows the Old Gods.

Also, Ramsay has two squires and hasn't been knighted either and he wears fine armor during the Sack of Winterfell

Yeah, I'm not sure what to think about the Boltons. Roose also wore armor when he killed Robb. I'm sure armor and being trained to fight in the style of a knight would be prudent during war. Again, I think this is a subject that GRRM is dancing around, because he'd rather we think there was some grand conspiracy between the rebel houses that was years in the making.

[rotting sea cow]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yeah, I'm not sure what to think about the Boltons. Roose also wore armor when he killed Robb. I'm sure armor and being trained to fight in the style of a knight would be prudent during war. Again, I think this is a subject that GRRM is dancing around, because he'd rather we think there was some grand conspiracy between the rebel houses that was years in the making.

You are overthinking the whole knight, squire, ward, armor, etc thing. It is not important. There have been thousands of years of these two cultures clashing and intermixing, so there are northmen following "knightly" customs but following the Old Gods, etc.

[Igziabeher]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Why would Ned be a ward like Theon? The Starks weren't defeated by the Arryn's in any recent war.

I said minus the whole being a post War hostage part.  Theon wasn't treated as such, and was given duties similar to a page or squire.  Same thing for Jon Arryn.  I'm sure Ned saw the chance to give Theon the same chances Jon Arryn gave him when he had Theon under his care.

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Spurs also have a practical use, for riding. Northern culture, that doesn't have many knights, probably wouldn't care if the Lord of Winterfell, who is a warrior, wears them without being a knight.

And the Danes were in England over a much shorter time period than between the Andal invasion and the present day. It would be like saying the Scots of the 14th century are going to have the same technology as they did in the 4th century BC, because they're both Celts, right?

From TWOIAF:

So the Citadel clearly came before the Andals. Also, unlike the RL church, the Faith does not seem to have a monopoly on learning. Nowhere do we see a real association between the Faith and Citadel.

Sure, wedding day, engagement, either makes sense. I think Barbrey meant that in regards to southern ambitions. Characterising her as being mostly anti-Faith seems odd.

It seems as though the original idea to create maesters came from the First Men, but building a common Citadel for formal training sounds like it came later.

Lady Barbary hates maesters, calling them 'grey rats'. The maesters dress in grey, and a 'rat' indicates a betrayal, which if the maesters started out as a First Men organization and then became overly influenced by Andals and their Faith - that in itself is one betrayal.

Barbary blames Maester Walys for influencing Rickard into promising Brandon to Catelyn. If the engagement occurred six years prior to the rebellion, how would the two be connected? 

2 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Theon is not just a ward. Ward is the polite term for "hostage," but the two do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Rhaena Targaryen was a ward of Jeyne Arryn during the Dance of the Dragons; this was is for protection. It's usually to grow connections between two houses and given Rickard's political ambitions, this makes sense.

What political ambitions do you think Rickard had?

[Back door hodor]

So no I don't think Ned was a convert to the 7. There is a passage in AGOT in an Arya chapter where Ned and Arya are speaking about her future, after they learn Bran has woken up.(this is the conversation where Ned says that Arya will one day get married and she says, "no, that's Sansa, not me). Ned and Arya also discuss Bran in this same conversation, Ned mentions one of the things Bran can now do(because he can no longer be a knight like he dreamed) is "Join your mother's faith and become a septon."

He specifically distances himself from it, and when he seeks time alone to reflect he goes to the gods wood, not the Sept, as Cat later does in the south when she goes to parlay with Renly and Stannis.

In regards to Rob's squire's, its is part of the marriage alliance with house Frey that Robb take Olyvar as his squire.

[Igziabeher]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

What political ambitions do you think Rickard had?

I think his political ambitions were more to start intermingling his family with the other great houses of the South as opposed to mostly sticking with other Northern families for marriage pacts.  Maybe he had eyes on the Starks having a stronger presence in Kings Landing after gaining relations with powerful houses like the Arryns, Baratheons and Tullys.  Unfortunately, we'll never know Rickard's long game.

[Vaith]

12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It seems as though the original idea to create maesters came from the First Men, but building a common Citadel for formal training sounds like it came later.

Lady Barbary hates maesters, calling them 'grey rats'. The maesters dress in grey, and a 'rat' indicates a betrayal, which if the maesters started out as a First Men organization and then became overly influenced by Andals and their Faith - that in itself is one betrayal.

Barbary blames Maester Walys for influencing Rickard into promising Brandon to Catelyn. If the engagement occurred six years prior to the rebellion, how would the two be connected? 

What political ambitions do you think Rickard had?

 

2 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

I think his political ambitions were more to start intermingling his family with the other great houses of the South as opposed to mostly sticking with other Northern families for marriage pacts.  Maybe he had eyes on the Starks having a stronger presence in Kings Landing after gaining relations with powerful houses like the Arryns, Baratheons and Tullys.  Unfortunately, we'll never know Rickard's long game.

The southron ambitions theory details that a lot of the great houses were wary of Aerys's madness, and tried to bind themselves together further into his reign.

As for disliking the maesters, Barbrey is some thousands years late if she dislikes the Andal influence. She's mostly talking about how maesters tend to have their own agenda, rather than just being southron/Faith-worshipping.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

36 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

I think his political ambitions were more to start intermingling his family with the other great houses of the South as opposed to mostly sticking with other Northern families for marriage pacts.  Maybe he had eyes on the Starks having a stronger presence in Kings Landing after gaining relations with powerful houses like the Arryns, Baratheons and Tullys.  Unfortunately, we'll never know Rickard's long game.

He reminds me somewhat of Christian IX of Denmark. He got all of his children into powerful positions in diferent royal courts, (by marriage or otherwise) which got him the nickname "The Father-in-Law of Europe". Rickard never achieved that level of success, though.

[Melifeather]

46 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

So no I don't think Ned was a convert to the 7. There is a passage in AGOT in an Arya chapter where Ned and Arya are speaking about her future, after they learn Bran has woken up.(this is the conversation where Ned says that Arya will one day get married and she says, "no, that's Sansa, not me). Ned and Arya also discuss Bran in this same conversation, Ned mentions one of the things Bran can now do(because he can no longer be a knight like he dreamed) is "Join your mother's faith and become a septon."

He specifically distances himself from it, and when he seeks time alone to reflect he goes to the gods wood, not the Sept, as Cat later does in the south when she goes to parlay with Renly and Stannis.

In regards to Rob's squire's, its is part of the marriage alliance with house Frey that Robb take Olyvar as his squire.

I never said Ned converted. He obviously had reservations and was probably the main reason why he never was knighted. But he does acknowledge and honor Bran's desire to become a knight and encourages him to become a septon. Ned's pretty liberal when it comes to his own faith. If he was a strong believer he would have raised his children to worship the old gods.

If it was Bran's desire to become a knight and Ned acknowledged that he knew about his desire, then it's not out of the realm of possibility that Robb trained to be a knight too. If Rodrik Cassel was a knight, he had the authority to make knights.

42 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

I think his political ambitions were more to start intermingling his family with the other great houses of the South as opposed to mostly sticking with other Northern families for marriage pacts.  Maybe he had eyes on the Starks having a stronger presence in Kings Landing after gaining relations with powerful houses like the Arryns, Baratheons and Tullys.  Unfortunately, we'll never know Rickard's long game.

King Aerys II reigned for 21 years. In the beginning he was known to be charming, although quick to anger.  He wasn't considered to be all that bad of a king until his later years. The engagement between Brandon and Catelyn seems to coincide with the same year as the Defiance of Duskendale, which is credited for sparking Aerys's paranoias. Tywin was already getting fed up with Aerys, but the rest of the realm didn't really have cause to complain until Aerys' personality turned for the worse after he was held captive. The timing of Brandon and Catelyn's engagement is more coincidental than in preparation. I can see, however, that such a move might look worrisome to King Aerys II, because it's uncommon. Normally the great house marry into their bannermen to strengthen their bonds. Marrying outside your bannermen is typically only done to make alliances to bond together against a common enemy. King Aerys II wasn't their enemy just yet. Rhaegar didn't start assembling support until the year of the False Spring in 281 when Brandon was 19-20. (depending on what month his birthday was.)

37 minutes ago, Vaith said:

 

The southron ambitions theory details that a lot of the great houses were wary of Aerys's madness, and tried to bind themselves together further into his reign.

As for disliking the maesters, Barbrey is some thousands years late if she dislikes the Andal influence. She's mostly talking about how maesters tend to have their own agenda, rather than just being southron/Faith-worshipping.

The majority of alliances didn't take place until after Lyanna was abducted in 282. Ned didn't marry Catelyn and Jon didn't marry Lysa until they needed Tully forces to help Robert escape Jon Connington's royal forces. Tywin didn't have any marriage contracts to any of the rebel Houses, and that is why no one knew what side he was on.

Maester Walys convinced Rickard to marry Brandon outside the north. Normally Winterfell marries their bannermen. Their custom is to marry northern house to northern house. The Andal custom is to make political alliances through marriage, and while Rickard's actions looked political, I think they took place too early to be certain they were politically motivated.

[Igziabeher]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I never said Ned converted. He obviously had reservations and was probably the main reason why he never was knighted. But he does acknowledge and honor Bran's desire to become a knight and encourages him to become a septon. Ned's pretty liberal when it comes to his own faith. If he was a strong believer he would have raised his children to worship the old gods.

I don't think that necessarily means he's not a strong believer in the old gods, just that he knows his legitimate children are all half Riverlanders, so he allows them to follow either his beliefs or his wives w/o issue.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If we have confirmation that Brandon was a knight with his own squire, then that gives credence to my theory that Rickard was also a knight, and that the reason why Ned was sent to the Vale was to become Jon Arryn's squire. Ned trained along side Jon's other squire, Robert Baratheon. They both remained in the Eyrie up until the Rebellion, because neither one of them had been knighted yet.

The main question I have in all of this is, so what? Rickard, Brandon, Ned, they all wanted to be knights. And?

Also, Domeric Bolton is from a First Man house, and he was sent as a page to House Dustin, another First Man house, and then to squire for House Redfort, an Andal house in the Vale. Sometimes this was just a good way to train a young man in the arts of war and foster good relations between houses, not necessarily to adopt a new religion.

Rickard Stark most definitely had southron ambitions, but it didn't require him or his sons to become knights. The idea seems to be to form an intermarried power bloc that could rival the Iron Throne if push ever came to shove. If they could keep it all together, in a few generations they could have the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Baratheons and perhaps even the Lannisters as one big extended family. This is how the Reach has maintained its military dominance over the years. The Tyrell's, and the Gardners before them, intermarried with mainly the Redwynes and Hightowers (and other houses two, but this is the triumvirate) so that any threat to the Reach can be me with overwhelming force. The Reach, after all, doesn't have much in the way of natural defenses -- no mountains, deserts, geographic choke points, etc. -- all they have is people. Lots and lots of people. But in order to use them effective, they must have a stable political structure. It's worth noting that the only time Highgarden has fallen is when political divisions arose over a Gardner king's marriage choices and they were invaded by the westermen, stormlanders and Dornish simultaneously.

If you look at history, marriages between the great houses were few and far between, with most lords marrying sons and daughters to their own bannermen in order to maintain their own political stability. Suddenly, we have these houses looking to marry one another, which would be deeply distressing to the Iron Throne -- aye, and the Tyrells as well.

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There are northern lords in the story and considering the fact that Brandon entered the tourney at Harrenhal and those are apparently reserved to knights, the odds that he was one are I think good.

Not true. Lothar Brune entered the lists at both the Tourney of the Hand and Joffrey's nameday tourney. He is not a knight. Other non-knights in tourneys include Jory Cassel, Sandor Clegane, Thoros of Myr, Oberyn Martell, Willas Tyrell, Simon Toyen (although he was a mystery knight), Gerion Lannister, many more.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

21 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Not true. Lothar Brune entered the lists at both the Tourney of the Hand and Joffrey's nameday tourney. He is not a knight. Other non-knights in tourneys include Jory Cassel, Sandor Clegane, Thoros of Myr, Oberyn Martell, Willas Tyrell, Simon Toyen (although he was a mystery knight), Gerion Lannister, many more.

That is true. My mind went to Dunc and Egg, which is a different matter altogether, when I was writing that and the run around he was given when he was trying to enter the tourney.

Oberyn Martell should be a knight, though. He cannot dub a knight if he isn't one himself (and he's not a king to be able to just knight without being a knight) and he did knight and he Daemon Sand and offered to do the same with Quentyn.

[Melifeather]

33 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The main question I have in all of this is, so what? Rickard, Brandon, Ned, they all wanted to be knights. And?

I'm offering an alternate explanation for 'southron ambitions', because I don't believe there was some grand conspiracy. I used to, but not after picking up on this possible knight business.

The only 'conspiracy theory' that I do believe is that Tywin was pulling some strings behind the scenes, but as for some great Stark, Tully, Arryn, Baratheon (STAB) alliance - it never materialized until after Jon Connington had Robert trapped at Stoney Sept. Tully wasn't a part of the rebellion until Ned and Jon promised to marry Catelyn and Lysa.
 

33 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Also, Domeric Bolton is from a First Man house, and he was sent as a page to House Dustin, another First Man house, and then to squire for House Redfort, an Andal house in the Vale. Sometimes this was just a good way to train a young man in the arts of war and foster good relations between houses, not necessarily to adopt a new religion.

Don't you find it a coincidence that Domeric was sent to the same house to train that Brandon was? I had mentioned upthread that there is some, if slight, evidence that the Dustins practiced knighthood.

33 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Rickard Stark most definitely had southron ambitions, but it didn't require him or his sons to become knights. The idea seems to be to form an intermarried power bloc that could rival the Iron Throne if push ever came to shove. If they could keep it all together, in a few generations they could have the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Baratheons and perhaps even the Lannisters as one big extended family. This is how the Reach has maintained its military dominance over the years.

To reiterate, the STAB alliance wasn't cemented until the Battle at Stoney Sept. I do, however, believe Jon Arryn was one person Tywin reached out to behind the scenes, and his presumed/suspected letter may have encouraged Jon to not give up Ned and Robert. Robert and Ned became like sons to Jon, but it's quite another thing to defy your king. He must have had some encouragement.

33 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Not true. Lothar Brune entered the lists at both the Tourney of the Hand and Joffrey's nameday tourney. He is not a knight. Other non-knights in tourneys include Jory Cassel, Sandor Clegane, Thoros of Myr, Oberyn Martell, Willas Tyrell, Simon Toyen (although he was a mystery knight), Gerion Lannister, many more

Jory Cassel was likely knighted, since the Cassels practice knighthood. 

Sandor Clegane was a knight whether he accepted it or not - he was a Kingsguard and Kingsguard are knights. Everyone else viewed Sandor as a knight.

As for Thoros, Oberyn, Willas, and Gerion - I cannot comment without looking these four up, but why would they not be knights? They are all from southern houses connected to the Faith. I realize Thoros is a red priest, but he fought along side Robert Baratheon and was part of his court. He may have been knighted in battle.

[The Fattest Leech]

Not much to add to this discussion at the moment, but as far as knighthood, or at least the chivalry aspects to it and the moral code that "true knights" should follow, I don't know if that is an Andal specific or Andal only trait. Clarifying: what we are given in the books about Knights seems to come from first men origins. 

I think Bran asking to be a knight has many layers... like an onion . Bran wants to be a knight, but he can't because of his legs, but he will be a knight of the mind. Be careful what you wish for in a GRRM story. You just might get it. Bran and Jon are continuing to reenact history (to a degree).

I do think that in order for humanity to not just survive, but to learn better and rebuild better, there will be some merges of knowledge and principles = societal evolution? Dunno. Just a guess.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

Many of the more primitive peoples of the earth worship a fertility god or goddess, and Garth Greenhand has much and more in common with these deities. It was Garth who first taught men to farm, it is said. Before him, all men were hunters and gatherers, rootless wanderers forever in search of sustenance, until Garth gave them the gift of seed and showed them how to plant and sow, how to raise crops and reap the harvest. (In some tales, he tried to teach the elder races as well, but the giants roared at him and pelted him with boulders, whilst the children laughed and told him that the gods of the wood provided for all their needs). Where he walked, farms and villages and orchards sprouted up behind him. About his shoulders was slung a canvas bag, heavy with seed, which he scattered as he went along. As befits a god, his bag was inexhaustible; within were seeds for all the world's trees and grains and fruits and flowers.

<b>John the Oak</b>, the First Knight, who brought chivalry to Westeros (a huge man, all agree, eight feet tall in some tales, ten or twelve feet tall in others, sired by Garth Greenhand on a giantess). His own descendants became the Oakhearts of Old Oak.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

Broken, Bran thought bitterly as he clutched his knife. Is that what he was now? Bran the Broken? "I don't want to be broken," he whispered fiercely to Maester Luwin, who'd been seated to his right. "I want to be a knight."

"There are some who call my order the knights of the mind," Luwin replied. "You are a surpassing clever boy when you work at it, Bran. Have you ever thought that you might wear a maester's chain? There is no limit to what you might learn."

"I want to learn magic," Bran told him. "The crow promised that I would fly."

[Igziabeher]

12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jory Cassel was likely knighted, since the Cassels practice knighthood. 

Sandor Clegane was a knight whether he accepted it or not - he was a Kingsguard and Kingsguard are knights. Everyone else viewed Sandor as a knight.

As for Thoros, Oberyn, Willas, and Gerion - I cannot comment without looking these four up, but why would they not be knights? They are all from southern houses connected to the Faith. I realize Thoros is a red priest, but he fought along side Robert Baratheon and was part of his court. He may have been knighted in battle.

Clegane wasn't Kingsguard until after Ser Barristan left, so at the time of the Hand's tourney, he still wasn't technically a knight.  Oberyn is a Prince though, I'm sure with that he can knight or join any tourney he wants.