A Faithful Knight in Winterfell

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

Clegane wasn't Kingsguard until after Ser Barristan left, so at the time of the Hand's tourney, he still wasn't technically a knight.  Oberyn is a Prince though, I'm sure with that he can knight or join any tourney he wants.

People believed Sandor to be a knight. Sandor despises the hypocrisy of knighthood, but that doesn't mean he wasn't trained as one. His brother Gregor was a landed knight - knighted by Rhaegar Targaryen.

Was Sandor officially a participant in the tourney? Or did he just step in the stop his brother from killing Loras?

[Vaith]

48 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The majority of alliances didn't take place until after Lyanna was abducted in 282. Ned didn't marry Catelyn and Jon didn't marry Lysa until they needed Tully forces to help Robert escape Jon Connington's royal forces. Tywin didn't have any marriage contracts to any of the rebel Houses, and that is why no one knew what side he was on.

Maester Walys convinced Rickard to marry Brandon outside the north. Normally Winterfell marries their bannermen. Their custom is to marry northern house to northern house. The Andal custom is to make political alliances through marriage, and while Rickard's actions looked political, I think they took place too early to be certain they were politically motivated.

How is political marriage only an Andal thing? Do we have any examples at all of a woman from the north marrying for love, and everyone being okay with that? In the Stark lineage you see daughters marrying Umbers, Cerwyns, not random grooms from the Winterfell stables.

Most regions in Westeros are pretty insular. If you look at the Lannister lineage over the past 100 years, you see marriages to Braxes, Farmans, Kyndalls, Marbrands, Reynes, Crakehalls, Jasts, Swyfts -- all houses of the Westerlands, except Rohanne Webber, a relatively minor noblewoman from the Reach with lands pretty close to the border. And in the Stark tree you get your exceptions too - Ned's great-aunt Jocelyn married Benedict Royce, of the junior branch, from the Vale.

I am not seeing how the great houses were all marrying each other regularly in the last 300 years. And yet Tywin planned to marry Jaime to Lysa, a betrothal was planned between Robert and Lyanna, between Brandon and Catelyn -- not to mention the previous Princess of Dorne proposing Elia and Jaime or Cersei and Oberyn at an earlier point in time. This is not mutually exclusive with the anti-Aerys bloc marrying once the rebellion began -- but the seeds were clearly sown in the years beforehand.

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

<b>John the Oak</b>, the First Knight, who brought chivalry to Westeros (a huge man, all agree, eight feet tall in some tales, ten or twelve feet tall in others, sired by Garth Greenhand on a giantess). His own descendants became the Oakhearts of Old Oak.

IMO this is an example of the Andals appropriating the legends of the First Men to be more in line with the Faith of the Seven and Andalic traditions. Also hence the legend of the first tourney in Westeros with Maris and the giant, well before the coming of the Andals.  Really, the birthplace of chivalry seems to be the Vale, where the first Andals arrived and the first knights in Westeros were made.

I do agree that a Northman may very well accept a knighthood if offered one by another knight for valour, or for being the ward of some Faith of the Seven house, etc.  But there are probably many who reject it as it is custom to be anointed with seven oils, and it does rather seem the custom of another place.

 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

41 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 Other non-knights in tourneys include Jory Cassel, Sandor Clegane, Thoros of Myr, Oberyn Martell, Willas Tyrell, Simon Toyen (although he was a mystery knight), Gerion Lannister, many more.

Yeah I don't think one has to be a Knight to enter a tourney.

Go all the way back to Criston Cole, wasn't he knighted after the Tourney for Viserys I ascension? 

Bran and Luwin are talking and this is said:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

"How many knights?"

"Few enough," the maester said with a touch of impatience. "To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights … but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man's worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before."

"Still," said Bran, "how many knights?"

Maester Luwin sighed. "Three hundred, perhaps four … among three thousand armored lances who are not knights."

Seems pretty clear the Northern families who follow the OG don't do Knighthood, unless they get it for some great service like Jorah.

Despite this, those three thousand armored lances are the functional equivalent of a Knight.

I think GRRM's denial of Ned training as a Knight makes it clear.

Lady Dustin labels Rickards' searching outside of the North for partners for his children as 'Southron Ambitions', I think it is a bit of a jump to say the ambition was Knighthood its self.

Her labeling the marriage search as 'Southron Ambitions' show that she was pissed she didn't get to marry Brandon, and shocked that a northern wife wasn't chosen. That is how I took it.

Interesting idea, I enjoyed reading the theory.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Vaith said:

How is political marriage only an Andal thing? Do we have any examples at all of a woman from the north marrying for love, and everyone being okay with that? In the Stark lineage you see daughters marrying Umbers, Cerwyns, not random grooms from the Winterfell stables.

Most regions in Westeros are pretty insular. If you look at the Lannister lineage over the past 100 years, you see marriages to Braxes, Farmans, Kyndalls, Marbrands, Reynes, Crakehalls, Jasts, Swyfts -- all houses of the Westerlands, except Rohanne Webber, a relatively minor noblewoman from the Reach with lands pretty close to the border. And in the Stark tree you get your exceptions too - Ned's great-aunt Jocelyn married Benedict Royce, of the junior branch, from the Vale.

I am not seeing how the great houses were all marrying each other regularly in the last 300 years. And yet Tywin planned to marry Jaime to Lysa, a betrothal was planned between Robert and Lyanna, between Brandon and Catelyn -- not to mention the previous Princess of Dorne proposing Elia and Jaime or Cersei and Oberyn at an earlier point in time. This is not mutually exclusive with the anti-Aerys bloc marrying once the rebellion began -- but the seeds were clearly sown in the years beforehand.

IMO this is an example of the Andals appropriating the legends of the First Men to be more in line with the Faith of the Seven and Andalic traditions. Also hence the legend of the first tourney in Westeros with Maris and the giant, well before the coming of the Andals.  Really, the birthplace of chivalry seems to be the Vale, where the first Andals arrived and the first knights in Westeros were made.

I do agree that a Northman may very well accept a knighthood if offered one by another knight for valour, or for being the ward of some Faith of the Seven house, etc.  But there are probably many who reject it as it is custom to be anointed with seven oils, and it does rather seem the custom of another place.

 

I’ll respond more later, but real quickly, I am totally on board with the trickiness of the Andals (and maesters) but if they were appropriating traditions, then the Andals would claim it as their own to minimize the credit to first men. I don’t care much about the actual term, the important part is the action behind the words. 

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, Vaith said:

How is political marriage only an Andal thing? Do we have any examples at all of a woman from the north marrying for love, and everyone being okay with that? In the Stark lineage you see daughters marrying Umbers, Cerwyns, not random grooms from the Winterfell stables.

OK, you have read a lot more into my words than I intended. I never said the North married for love. I said they typically married into their bannermen, and that is what has Barbary upset. Then the Starks add insult to injury by dragging her husband into a conflict with the throne, which she likely sees could have been avoided had Rickard married his children to northern families.

19 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I am not seeing how the great houses were all marrying each other regularly in the last 300 years. And yet Tywin planned to marry Jaime to Lysa, a betrothal was planned between Robert and Lyanna, between Brandon and Catelyn -- not to mention the previous Princess of Dorne proposing Elia and Jaime or Cersei and Oberyn at an earlier point in time. This is not mutually exclusive with the anti-Aerys bloc marrying once the rebellion began -- but the seeds were clearly sown in the years beforehand.

Tywin was still Hand when he proposed marrying Jaime to Lysa, so it doesn't appear to have been part of a conspiracy. 

Yes, Rickard was proposing marriages to two houses: Tully and Baratheon, but it doesn't appear that he was plotting against the king so early in time. He went outside the northern traditions and was adopting Andal customs which was Lady Barbary's main objection.

As for the Princess of Dorne proposing marriage between Elia and Jaime and Cersei and Oberyn... I thought she was just trying to make good matches with her good friend, Joanna. Her proposals don't look like defiance towards the throne to me.

15 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Lady Dustin labels Rickards' searching outside of the North for partners for his children as 'Southron Ambitions', I think it is a bit of a jump to say the ambition was Knighthood its self.

The ambition was the adoption of Andal culture, which happened to include knighthood. Rickard's actions only look suspicious now after the rebellion, but when he was actually doing these things it was really too early to be motivated by a desire to get rid of King Aerys.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I am thinking GRRM is telling a little white lie here. He doesn't like to reveal specific facts in his interviews, so this feels like he's backtracking a bit. I think he is trying to hide the fact that Ned was training to be a knight as Jon Arryn's squire, because he also says he wasn't free to leave until he was sixteen.

Well, that wouldn’t be a “little white lie” now, would it? It would be a fat-ass blatant lie, and Martin doesn’t do that. If he doesn’t want to give something away, he has his go-to replies, like, “keep reading”. 

And so much more irt the OP... 

For instance, northerners wear armour, not just boiled leather and scraps of metal here and there - what does that even mean anyway? 

You claim that Rickard was a knight, and had converted to the Faith of the Seven. Where is this coming from, if I may ask? There is literally no indication or clue or hint or anything whatsoever suggesting something like this ever happened. No way Rickard is a 7-worshipping knight, and 5 books in (plus the WB) and no mention or clue to be seen anywhere, and then a reveal at some point? Why? What purpose does it serve? What does it bring to the story? And that’s w/o even taking into consideration that that’s not Martin’s style. He leaves hints and clues and foreshadowing all over the place. They’re very often not enough on their own to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, but they’re there. What you propose isn’t.

Also, as @The Wondering Wolf pointed out, non-knights have squires, too. 

We also have Ned, and we see he not only follows the OG, but is raising his kids as OG followers as well. 

What [little] we have in the text pertaining to Rickard and his “southron ambitions” points away from what you propose imo. I also think that the extent of Rickard’s soithron ambitions was to make smart marriages for his kids, thus allying himself w/ other great houses which, in my book, is a very intelligent move. 

[redriver]

Come back Hot Pie- you started this

[Ser Leftwich]

OP is riddled with inaccuracies and has little grounding in these books. 

And amusingly, doesn't even attempt to include the quote of Robert referring to himself and Ned as " two vagabond knights on the kingsroad."

 

[rotting sea cow]

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Sandor Clegane was a knight whether he accepted it or not - he was a Kingsguard and Kingsguard are knights. Everyone else viewed Sandor as a knight.

 

The Hound's scarred face was hard to read. He took a long moment to consider. "Why not? I have no lands nor wife to forsake, and who'd care if I did?" The burned side of his mouth twisted. "But I warn you, I'll say no knight's vows."

 

"The Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard have always been knights," Ser Boros said firmly.

 

"Until now," the Hound said in his deep rasp, and Ser Boros fell silent.

 

- Sansa V, AGOT

 

Sandor tells King Joffrey Baratheon Lannister, in front of all the Court, he won't say knight's vows

[Melifeather]

14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

ou claim that Rickard was a knight, and had converted to the Faith of the Seven. Where is this coming from, if I may ask? There is literally no indication or clue or hint or anything whatsoever suggesting something like this ever happened. No way Rickard is a 7-worshipping knight, and 5 books in (plus the WB) and no mention or clue to be seen anywhere, and then a reveal at some point? Why? What purpose does it serve? What does it bring to the story?

If my theory proves true there could be ramifications - a long series of chain reactions would not have occurred.

In the Dunc and Egg stories we learn that tourneys are for knights and that you must be a knight to enter competition.

Would Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen travel to the Harrenhal tourney if none of them were planning on entering?

According to the Knight of the Laughing Tree tale the Starks had brought armor with them - indicating that at least one of them planned on entering the tourney. It's mentioned that Brandon entered the lists, but was later unhorsed by Rhaegar.

If Brandon had never become a knight, the Starks might not have even gone to the tourney, Lyanna would not have been crowned queen of love and beauty, and she might not have been abducted. And if Lyanna had never been abducted, then Brandon and Rickard would not have been executed.

I don't know if there is a pathway to become a knight and be recognized as a knight without also worshipping the Faith, but the religion aspect is less important in my opinion. What is important is that I believe Rickard and Brandon became knights, Ned was sent away to train as a knight, and knights go to tourneys.

14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And that’s w/o even taking into consideration that that’s not Martin’s style. He leaves hints and clues and foreshadowing all over the place.

I'm quite familiar that GRRM likes to make his revelations in three waves. The first time is hinted at. The second has more details, and the third typically spells it out. 

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Sandor tells King Joffrey Baratheon Lannister, in front of all the Court, he won't say knight's vows

What is important is that everyone else views Sandor as a knight.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

58 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If my theory proves true there could be ramifications - a long series of chain reactions would not have occurred.

In the Dunc and Egg stories we learn that tourneys are for knights and that you must be a knight to enter competition.

Would Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen travel to the Harrenhal tourney if none of them were planning on entering?

According to the Knight of the Laughing Tree tale the Starks had brought armor with them - indicating that at least one of them planned on entering the tourney. It's mentioned that Brandon entered the lists, but was later unhorsed by Rhaegar.

If Brandon had never become a knight, the Starks might not have even gone to the tourney, Lyanna would not have been crowned queen of love and beauty, and she might not have been abducted. And if Lyanna had never been abducted, then Brandon and Rickard would not have been executed.

I don't know if there is a pathway to become a knight and be recognized as a knight without also worshipping the Faith, but the religion aspect is less important in my opinion. What is important is that I believe Rickard and Brandon became knights, Ned was sent away to train as a knight, and knights go to tourneys.

I'm quite familiar that GRRM likes to make his revelations in three waves. The first time is hinted at. The second has more details, and the third typically spells it out. 

What is important is that everyone else views Sandor as a knight.

Was Criston Cole not knighted after winning the melee? Or am I reading this incorrectly? Would the son of a steward have been a Ser before the tourney?

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Viserys I

The year 105 AC holds one more event of note: the induction of Ser Criston Cole into the Kingsguard. Born in 82 AC, as the son of a steward in the service of the Dondarrions of Blackhaven, Criston had risen to the attention of the court at a tourney in Maidenpool to celebrate Viserys's ascension to the throne, where he won the mêlée and was the last but one in the jousting.

Black-haired, green-eyed, and comely, he proved a delight to the ladies of the court—and to Princess Rhaenyra most of all. She took a childish fancy to him, naming him "my white knight" and begging her father to make him her sworn shield, which he did. After that, Cole was always by her side and carried her favor in the lists. It was said in later years that the princess only had eyes for Ser Criston, but there is reason to doubt that this was wholly true.

Also, not all Lords are Knights. Lords seem to be able to enter tourneys without issue.

Brandon wasn't a knight!!! He followed the OG.

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Was Criston Cole not knighted after winning the melee? Or am I reading this incorrectly? Would the son of a steward have been a Ser before the tourney?

Also, not all Lords are Knights. Lords seem to be able to enter tourneys without issue.

Brandon wasn't a knight!!! He followed the OG.

It doesn't say if Criston was a knight when he entered the tourney. All it says is that he was the son of a steward and that he became a Kingsguard after the tourney.

How do we know if Brandon followed the old gods? I think that's just an assumption based on being from the north and that Ned is a confirmed follower. We also don't know if you have to be a follower of the Faith to become a knight. Knighthood definitely has deep connections to the Faith, but there seems to be an awful lot of knights in the north.

[Melifeather]

essosiwatch over on HoBaW had another interesting point to consider. If Rickard hadn't converted to the Faith and became a knight, would he have requested trial by combat?

The trial by combat originates from the Andals in Essos. When they invaded Westeros, they brought their customs with them. 

Knights, no matter their status of birth, cannot be denied a trial by combat.

When Rickard demanded it, it's said it was allowed as it was his 'right'. If he was a known follower of the old gods, would it still be his right?

[Nittanian]

Another example of a squire to a non-knight is Wex Pyke, who serves Theon Greyjoy.

Quote

Wex grabbed up a fistful of coppers and came along without a word. That was one of the things Theon liked best about him. Most squires have loose tongues, but Wex had been born dumb . . . which didn't seem to keep him from being clever as any twelve-year-old had a right to be. He was a baseborn son of one of Lord Botley's half brothers. Taking him as squire had been part of the price Theon had paid for his horse. (ACOK Theon II)

Back in 2001, George explained:

Quote

Can someone who keeps to the old gods be made a knight too or is it a exclusive of the Seven?

The latter. Those who follow the old gods can be the northern equivilent of knights, but it's not quite the same.

The brotherhood without banners, the so-called knights of the hollow hill, worship R'hllor (although the outlaws' knighthood would probably be scoffed at by high society). 

Quote

"The brotherhood without banners." Tom Sevenstrings plucked a string. "The knights of the hollow hill."

"Knights?" Clegane made the word a sneer. "Dondarrion's a knight, but the rest of you are the sorriest lot of outlaws and broken men I've ever seen. I shit better men than you."

"Any knight can make a knight," said the scarecrow that was Beric Dondarrion, "and every man you see before you has felt a sword upon his shoulder. We are the forgotten fellowship." (ASOS Arya VI)

Quote

But when the Hound made to step toward his foe, Thoros of Myr stopped him. "First we pray." He turned toward the fire and lifted his arms. "Lord of Light, look down upon us."

All around the cave, the brotherhood without banners lifted their own voices in response. "Lord of Light, defend us." (ASOS Arya VI)

Even though the queen's men in Stannis's service now worship R'hllor instead of the Seven, their knighthood is still recognized.

Quote

Ser Richard Horpe and Ser Justin Massey were both queen's men, and high in the king's councils. A pair of common freeriders would have served if all that Stannis had in mind was scouting, Jon Snow reflected, but knights are better suited to act as messengers or envoys. (ADWD Jon II)

Bartimus is a northern knight who still believes in the old gods.

Quote

"What gods do you keep?" he asked the one-legged knight.

"The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree." (ADWD Davos IV)

Regarding tourneys, George has said:

Quote

As to your questions regarding the participation or non-participation of sellswords, squires, freeriders and the like, again, I don't see that as the difference as being chronological so much as geographic. The Reach is the heart of the chivalric tradition in the Seven Kingdoms, the place where knighthood is most universally esteemed, and therefore the place where the master of the games is most likely to devise and apply stringent rules. In Dorne and Storm's End and the riverlands and the Vale, things are perhaps a little less strict, and north of the Neck where the old gods still reign and knights are rare, they make up their own rules as they go along.

This has real world parallels as well. In the high middle ages, France was the apex of chivalry. German, English, Italian, and Spanish knights followed the fashions the French chevaliers set, although they did not always get them right. And if you went further afield still, to places like Scotland, Hungary, and Georgia, customs diverged even more.

The personalities of the sponsoring lords and their master-at-arms are another factor. Robert Baratheon was not a great respector of old traditions, and he would hardly have wanted a "knight's only" tournament to honor Ned, who was not a knight. Lord Ashford of Ashford, on the other hand, was trying to curry favor with Baelor Breakspear, the preeminent tourney knight of his time.

 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

essosiwatch over on HoBaW had another interesting point to consider. If Rickard hadn't converted to the Faith and became a knight, would he have requested trial by combat?

The trial by combat originates from the Andals in Essos. When they invaded Westeros, they brought their customs with them. 

Knights, no matter their status of birth, cannot be denied a trial by combat.

When Rickard demanded it, it's said it was allowed as it was his 'right'. If he was a known follower of the old gods, would it still be his right?

Guest right goes back to the First Men, but Andals follow it. 

I think as a citizen of the 7 Kingdoms everyone has the right to Trial by Combat.

It just shows the blend of Andal and First Men culture and customs that is present in Westeros - nothing more, in my opinion.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Another example of a squire to a non-knight is Wex Pyke, who serves Theon Greyjoy.

Theon was trained by Ser Rodrik Cassel at Winterfell along side Robb and Jon, and while I realize there is nothing calling him Ser Greyjoy, he is a prince and princes do tend to make their own rules.

3 hours ago, Nittanian said:

The brotherhood without banners, the so-called knights of the hollow hill, worship R'hllor (although the outlaws' knighthood would probably be scoffed at by high society). 

Ser Beric says he's knighted his group - because any knight can make a knight. Why would Beric find it necessary to knight them? I think it's because he believes he's on a holy mission and attributing knight-like values to it.

3 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Bartimus is a northern knight who still believes in the old gods.

He must also be called Ser Bartimus for a reason...somehow he was knighted.

3 hours ago, Nittanian said:

The personalities of the sponsoring lords and their master-at-arms are another factor. Robert Baratheon was not a great respector of old traditions, and he would hardly have wanted a "knight's only" tournament to honor Ned, who was not a knight. Lord Ashford of Ashford, on the other hand, was trying to curry favor with Baelor Breakspear, the preeminent tourney knight of his time.

Lord Walter Whent was the host for the tourney at Harrenhal with the crown prince as his guest. I would imagine traditional rules would've applied.

3 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Guest right goes back to the First Men, but Andals follow it. 

I think as a citizen of the 7 Kingdoms everyone has the right to Trial by Combat.

It just shows the blend of Andal and First Men culture and customs that is present in Westeros - nothing more, in my opinion.

Since we don't have a way to confirm either way we will just have to agree to disagree on this one, because I think the evidence is compelling enough to suspect that Rickard had recently converted and became a knight. It would add a lot to the story, especially with regards to Ned's feelings about the tourney and the thorns he imagines hiding under the flowers. The tourney seems very important to the rest of the story. Ned was likely influenced quite a bit by Jon Arryn since he was raised by him from such a young age, but after all the tragedy his family went through I can see how he would return to the old gods.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

In the Dunc and Egg stories we learn that tourneys are for knights and that you must be a knight to enter competition.

That’s not true. Some tourneys, yes, but certainly not all. And the ones that really stick more to this are the tourneys in the Reach. And we have Martin explaining it:

“As to your questions regarding the participation or non-participation of sellswords, squires, freeriders and the like, again, I don't see that as the difference as being chronological so much as geographic. The Reach is the heart of the chivalric tradition in the Seven Kingdoms, the place where knighthood is most universally esteemed, and therefore the place where the master of the games is most likely to devise and apply stringent rules. In Dorne and Storm's End and the riverlands and the Vale, things are perhaps a little less strict, and north of the Neck where the old gods still reign and knights are rare, they make up their own rules as they go along.

<snip>

The personalities of the sponsoring lords and their master-at-arms are another factor. Robert Baratheon was not a great respector of old traditions, and he would hardly have wanted a "knight's only" tournament to honor Ned, who was not a knight. Lord Ashford of Ashford, on the other hand, was trying to curry favor with Baelor Breakspear, the preeminent tourney knight of his time.

ETA: just saw @Nittanian beat me to it.

ETA2: actually,  I think the tourney at Harrenhal was very likely not exclusive for knights. After all, Brandon was a participant. And if we consider the possibility of Rhaegar being behind it and trying to get as many lords there as possible, it makes much more sense for it to be as inclusive as possible. 

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That is true. My mind went to Dunc and Egg, which is a different matter altogether, when I was writing that and the run around he was given when he was trying to enter the tourney.

Oberyn Martell should be a knight, though. He cannot dub a knight if he isn't one himself (and he's not a king to be able to just knight without being a knight) and he did knight and he Daemon Sand and offered to do the same with Quentyn.

Maybe. I couldn't find anything that mentioned Oby being knighted, or by whom. But not all lords or kings get their spurs, and it is my understanding that they can still knight people by virtue of their lordliness and kingliness.

[Nittanian]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Theon was trained by Ser Rodrik Cassel at Winterfell along side Robb and Jon, and while I realize there is nothing calling him Ser Greyjoy, he is a prince and princes do tend to make their own rules.

It's not Theon using his status to ask for a squire, it's the Botleys requiring that he take a mute bastard off their hands in return for a horse. The Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who is not necessarily a knight, has squires (for instance, Jon Snow to Jeor Mormont, and then Satin to Jon Snow). 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

He must also be called Ser Bartimus for a reason...somehow he was knighted.

We don't know if Bartimus was already a knight before Robert's Rebellion, but he received the Wolf's Den for having saved Lord Wyman at the Trident. I just mentioned him and the queen's men as examples of knights that follow other religions beside the Faith. The High Septon might consider them heretics, however. 

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But not all lords or kings get their spurs, and it is my understanding that they can still knight people by virtue of their lordliness and kingliness.

This So Spake Martin is a fan's recollection from 2006 SDCC:

Quote

To settle an old debate on EZBoard, any king can make a knight but any lord cannot. That lord must be a knight as well. So Baelor I could make knights but Eddard could not. George said the more important thing for kings is making lords. The problem is giving lands.

 

[John Suburbs]

On 2/6/2019 at 5:03 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I'm offering an alternate explanation for 'southron ambitions', because I don't believe there was some grand conspiracy. I used to, but not after picking up on this possible knight business.

The only 'conspiracy theory' that I do believe is that Tywin was pulling some strings behind the scenes, but as for some great Stark, Tully, Arryn, Baratheon (STAB) alliance - it never materialized until after Jon Connington had Robert trapped at Stoney Sept. Tully wasn't a part of the rebellion until Ned and Jon promised to marry Catelyn and Lysa.

Really? They went through all of this not to enhance their power or their wealth but just so they could be called knights? Seems like a stretch to me.

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Don't you find it a coincidence that Domeric was sent to the same house to train that Brandon was? I had mentioned upthread that there is some, if slight, evidence that the Dustins practiced knighthood.

Not really. The Starks and Dustins are fairly close, and Bran spent most of his time in the Rills anyway. If the only evidence of Dustin knights is that only knights can enter tourneys, that is false. Jory Cassel was not a night, nor was Sandor. They do not carry the title of Ser, and Sandor states emphatically that he is not a knight no matter what anyone thinks. He competed in the Hand's tourney before he joined the Kingsguard, when he was just plain old Sandor Clegane, Joffrey's dog.

Not everybody from a southron house is a knight. Many lords, in fact, do not get their spurs. Gerion Lannister was not a knight, but he competed in the Tourney at Lannisport. Thoros is most definitely not a knight, especially way back at the Hand's tourney.

I can see where the confusion stems from because at the Ashford tourney only knights can enter the lists. But this is clearly not a requirements for all tourneys.

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To reiterate, the STAB alliance wasn't cemented until the Battle at Stoney Sept. I do, however, believe Jon Arryn was one person Tywin reached out to behind the scenes, and his presumed/suspected letter may have encouraged Jon to not give up Ned and Robert. Robert and Ned became like sons to Jon, but it's quite another thing to defy your king. He must have had some encouragement.

It wasn't cemented, but Tully was actively shopping his daughters out to other great houses, a distinct break from past practice of marrying into your own banner houses. Rickard Stark was doing the same. Why they suddenly decided that this needed to be done is unclear, but I am 100 percent certain that it is more than them wanting to be knights.

Jon Arryn would not need any coaching or encouragement not to hand Ned and Robert over to Aerys, who had just boiled Rickard in wildfire and laughed while Brandon killed himself trying to save him. Jon Arryn was a man of honor or else he would not have garnered such devotion among his wards.