A Faithful Knight in Winterfell

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Not true. It is in the World Book. @Legitimate_Bastard has it correct.

 

The World Book is an in-world history book written by Maester Yandel as a gift for King Robert. As such, it was written in such a way as to be pleasing to Robert. King Robert would want the record to present details which flattered himself and vilified the outgoing administration. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The World Book is an in-world history book written by Maester Yandel as a gift for King Robert. As such, it was written in such a way as to be pleasing to Robert. King Robert would want the record to present details which flattered himself and vilified the outgoing administration. 

Ah jeez. LOL. 

Good answer. 

[Melifeather]

56 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

No, it doesn't imply they are a knight. It implies that it is easier to people to say 'mystery knight' as opposed to 'mystery armor-clad person who is willing to joust." It is blatant that anyone can challenge one of the champions at Harrenhal, without proof of knighthood. Unlike the tourney when Dunk had to prove he was a knight.

If mystery entrants are allowed, then anyone would be. It would impossible to enforce.

The question about Aerys's concern about the identity of the KotLT is irrelevant. Not his tourney, not his rules.

'Mystery armor-clad person' is clumsy, but traditionally speaking, tourneys are for knights and that is why people create a knight-like persona complete with shield and personal sigil.

Aerys's reasons for wanting to unmask the KotLT are more relevant than whether non-knights competed in the Hand's tourney, because they had to do with the Harrenhal tourney which is the same tourney Brandon entered.

51 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

No, may not have been in Meera's tale - but it does explain why Aerys wanted to learn the identity of the KotLT, for a different reason than wanting to know if it was a Knight.

If that was the case there would be no Mystery Knight category at all.

 

Now we're getting down to personal preferences, which is fine. Your preferred interpretation is different than mine. One is not more valid than the other. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The World Book is an in-world history book written by Maester Yandel as a gift for King Robert. As such, it was written in such a way as to be pleasing to Robert. King Robert would want the record to present details which flattered himself and vilified the outgoing administration. 

Keep moving those goalposts... 

[redriver]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The World Book is an in-world history book written by Maester Yandel as a gift for King Robert. As such, it was written in such a way as to be pleasing to Robert. King Robert would want the record to present details which flattered himself and vilified the outgoing administration. 

King Robert probably never read the book.

Besides I subscribe to the theory it was really written by GRRM.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

2 minutes ago, redriver said:

King Robert probably never read the book.

Probably? LOL.

I have never once even pictured Robert reading anything. Except maybe the label on a wine bottle.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No. It was to see who it was. 

Where's @Dorian Martell's son when you need him?

right here fam 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, to see who he was, but then what? 

Aerys was mega paranoid and only showed up to the tourney because Varys informed him of the nature of the event 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 Why could they not remain a mystery? What’s the harm in that? 

Because Aerys feared plotters. it is why he hired Varys in the first place. As long as there was a mystery there was potential for plots against him 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 The king became angry when the KotLT failed to show the following day.

The king became angry when his son failed to identify the knight 

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Actually I did, and you skipped over some of my responses. You also misinterpreted what I said. I never said all of the houses in the north had a master at arms that were knights, but according to the wiki all of the great houses did except for Greywater Watch.

I just went back and couldn’t find any replies to me apart from the ones I replied back.

Also, the wiki quote you provided says “most houses”, but now “most” became “all houses”. I think you can understand why some of us here are questioning some of your assumptions. 

We even have the scene in AGoT, when Robb calls the banners and Luwin tells Bran Robb has roughly 12,000 men. Bran then asks, “how many knights?”, and Luwin replies, “few enough” and explains why - most northern houses “honour the Old Gods and name no knights”. 

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While it's not confirmed either yes or no, I think there is evidence to suggest that he was a knight. 

Where? What is this “evidence”? I have asked this before, but didn’t get an answer. And by answer I mean, where in the text can any evidence pointing to Brandon being a knight be found? I’ll make it easier... doesn’t have to be evidence, I’ll settle for hints. 

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While Jory is never referred to as "Ser", neither are other knights called Ser by their closest friends and family. House Cassel is a house that practices knighthood, and Rory's uncle Rodrik is a knight. While not explicitly confirmed nor denied in the text IMO it's not out of the realm of possibility that Jory had been knighted. If your house practiced knighthood and your uncle was a knight it seems likely that you would also train to be a knight. Which Alan are you referring to? 

More assumptions. Nowhere is it stated that “house Cassel practices knighthood”. And as far as we can tell, Rodrik is the only Cassel knight out of the Cassels we meet or hear about. Martyn Cassel is never referred to as a knight, and Jory even less. As a matter of fact, there’s the scene from AGoT Eddard VI where Jory tries to talk to ser Hugh on Ned’s behalf and Hugh acts like an arsehole, “as only a new-made knight can be”. I find it extremely unlikely for a new-made knight to be so obnoxious to a fellow knight, and one who’s much older than him besides. 

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As to the tourney for Ned, GRRM did say Robert didn't hold to traditional rules. The Hand tourney isn't applicable to the OP - the tourney at Harrenhal is what is important, and whether or not Lord Whent would stick to traditional rules.

Yes, Martin did say Robert wasn’t huge on traditions. But he said loads more that you are deliberately leaving out b/c it doesn’t fit w/ your idea. 

Also, regarding the Tourney at Harrenhal, since that one is the really important one... it is very likely that Rhaegar was behind the tourney, and the goal was to gather as many lords and great lords as possible. Therefore, it makes a lot more sense that it was as inclusive as possible in terms of who can or cannot participate. 

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You're missing my point. Sandor hated the hypocrisy of knighthood, but there's no doubt that people around him considered him a knight - that is why he repeated corrected others for calling him a knight. 

What people around him are you talking about here? B/c if anyone at all thought he was a knight, it would be the people who didn’t know him and who were nowhere near or around him. Because those around him knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he wasn’t a knight, and in fact hated to be mistaken for one. 

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Sandor was perceived to be a knight by the people around him,

No he wasn’t. 

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and when he became a Kingsguard he was officially a knight. It's a title he despised and constantly berated, but his eligibility would never have been questioned.

 Nope. The text clearly says that both the dismissal of Barristan and the appointment of Sandor were first time ever events. 

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I've already answered my thoughts about Jory. His house practiced knighthood, and his uncle was a knight and master at arms. Jory wouldn't have become captain of guards had he not completed his training.

Training and practicing at arms and becoming a knight are... two different things. I would wager almost all, if not all, healthy and able young men from noble houses etc practice at arms in this world, but that doesn’t mean they all become knights.

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Brienne was accepted as one of Renly's Rainbow Guard, which is a kind of Kingsguard, which in my mind is a kind of knighthood. I don't recall Brienne entering a tourney, so I would be grateful if you would enlighten me with supporting text. The same goes for Sandor - I don't remember if he so much as competed in a tourney as stepped in to stop his brother from killing Loras. He was always guarding Joffrey, so I don't think he ever had leave to compete.

He did compete n the Hand’s Tourney in AGoT. There’s also some talk about Barristan unhorsing Sandor in another tourney. And the tourney for Joffrey’s nameday where Sandor belittles the competitors and says they’re not worth the effort of joining. There may be other instances/mentions but these are the ones I remember off the top of my head. 

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The OP was intended to present the evidence that suggests Rickard became a knight, which in turn provides an alternate explanation for 'southron ambitions'. I don't believe Lady Barbary's term is as provocative as it seems.

And a few pages in and I still haven’t seen any evidence that Rickard became a knight.

ETA: damn, @Nittanian, stop ‘ing me! 

ETA 2: same goes to you, @acwill07!

And basically, everyone else. Says a lot when we have a flood of quotes and references w/ textual support, all saying the same thing, innit. 

 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

And basically, everyone else. Says a lot when we have a flood of quotes and references w/ textual support, all saying the same thing, innit. 

 

I would like to see the results of a poll.

[Melifeather]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I just went back and couldn’t find any replies to me apart from the ones I replied back.

I said this, because it seems like you have poor reading comprehension. You keep asking questions to things that have already been answered. If you don't like or accept the answer, because it hasn't convinced you to change your position - that's perfectly OK, but don't ask the same question again.

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, the wiki quote you provided says “most houses”, but now “most” became “all houses”. I think you can understand why some of us here are questioning some of your assumptions. 

Here is one example of your poor reading comprehension. All Great Houses is not the same thing as all Houses. The Starks of Winterfell were a 'Great House', while Houses Greystark, Karstark, Umber, etc are not.

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Where? What is this “evidence”? I have asked this before, but didn’t get an answer. And by answer I mean, where in the text can any evidence pointing to Brandon being a knight be found? I’ll make it easier... doesn’t have to be evidence, I’ll settle for hints. 

I have pointed to Rickard's choice of armor and spurs and his request for a trial by battle as indicators that he may have adopted the southern Andal practice of knighthood. Along with that is the fact that Brandon had a squire, and that he entered the lists at the Tourney at Harrenhal, which I believe was a traditional tourney for knights. It's perfectly fine if you don't think the evidence is strong enough to prove that Brandon was a knight, but don't say I haven't provided any evidence. The word 'evidence' doesn't necessarily equate to concrete proof. Evidence are the pieces of a puzzle - an outward sign or exhibit that is used to help discern the truth. By saying that you'll make it "easier" and "settle for hints" - that's just being rude.

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

More assumptions. Nowhere is it stated that “house Cassel practices knighthood”. And as far as we can tell, Rodrik is the only Cassel knight out of the Cassels we meet or hear about. Martyn Cassel is never referred to as a knight, and Jory even less. As a matter of fact, there’s the scene from AGoT Eddard VI where Jory tries to talk to ser Hugh on Ned’s behalf and Hugh acts like an arsehole, “as only a new-made knight can be”. I find it extremely unlikely for a new-made knight to be so obnoxious to a fellow knight, and one who’s much older than him besides. 

It's on me for using the wiki to support the claims that House Cassel practices knighthood, and that master-at-arms are usually knights, because the wiki is easily edited and both of these areas have been changed.

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, Martin did say Robert wasn’t huge on traditions. But he said loads more that you are deliberately leaving out b/c it doesn’t fit w/ your idea. 

Some things GRRM has said about knights:

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I.e. why didn't Ser Osmynd knight people for money, or at least why didn't he knight his brothers? And why are there members of lordly Houses, who aren't knights, i.e. (late) Gerion Lannister, Willas Tyrell, Alekyne Florent, numerous Freys, if they could be easily knighted by their relatives?

In a medieval culture, knighthood is not simply an honor, like when Queen Elizabeth knights Elton John in our world. It's a job, a profession of arms. You need to have a certain amount of wealth, enough for armor and a warhorse at the minimum, and there are obligations as well. You're expected to fight, to respond to the summons of your lord, to train and lead a group of men-at-arms. Certain people simply aren't capable of all that (Willas Tyrell, Samwell Tarly), and are better fitted to be septons, maesters, or simply lords on their estates. Others don't have the interest. Knighthood was also in part religious, and for that reason followers of the old gods don't tend to be knighted, thought they otherwise fit the bill.

 

This one was interesting:

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And why did Lord Frey ask _Robb_ to see about Olyvar's knighting, when he had more than enough anointed knights at his disposal to attend to the matter?

Why should someone go to Harvard when they can get a degree from their local community college? There is great prestige in receiving your knighthood from a king, a prince, one of the Kingsguard or other celebrated, legendary knights. Getting knighted by a brother is like kissing your sister (we'll leave Jaime Lannister and the Targaryens out of that comparison) and getting dubbed by the local hedge knight is like graduating from barber college. You get a sheepskin, maybe, but don't try applying to law school.

 

 

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, regarding the Tourney at Harrenhal, since that one is the really important one... it is very likely that Rhaegar was behind the tourney, and the goal was to gather as many lords and great lords as possible. Therefore, it makes a lot more sense that it was as inclusive as possible in terms of who can or cannot participate. 

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

What people around him are you talking about here? B/c if anyone at all thought he was a knight, it would be the people who didn’t know him and who were nowhere near or around him. Because those around him knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he wasn’t a knight, and in fact hated to be mistaken for one. 

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

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and when he became a Kingsguard he was officially a knight. It's a title he despised and constantly berated, but his eligibility would never have been questioned.

 Nope. The text clearly says that both the dismissal of Barristan and the appointment of Sandor were first time ever events. 

Sorry, but there was some weird pasting going on and I couldn't insert individual comments for three separate topics above.

1. It was very likely Rhaegar was behind the Harrenhal tourney.

This is actually just something that King Aerys suspected due to Varys's influence, but was there any truth in his whispers? We really don't have anything more to confirm that it was more than simply a tourney to celebrate a return to spring. If it were deliberately planned to gather support for a coup, why didn't all the lords of the conspiring houses attend? Rickard Stark stayed home, as did Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, and Tywin Lannister. At least, none of them are mentioned as attending, although Tywin is confirmed in the text as not being there.

2. Sandor's frequent refusals to be called a knight. 

Whether or not Sandor was an anointed knight or not - it doesn't really matter. People believed he was a knight. If people hadn't believed he was a knight he wouldn't have to keep denying that he was one. 

3. This third point is very confusing, but I'll chalk it up to your reading comprehension again...I asserted that once Sandor became a Kingsguard that he was officially a knight, even though Sandor continued to deny he was a knight, and you answered back: 

Nope. The text clearly says that both the dismissal of Barristan and the appointment of Sandor were first time ever events. What??? Do you mean the appointment of a non-knight into the position of a knight?

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And a few pages in and I still haven’t seen any evidence that Rickard became a knight.

Why don't you stop following?  You've read it. Don't believe it. You've had your say. Why continue?

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I said this, because it seems like you have poor reading comprehension.

That must be it, surely.

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You keep asking questions to things that have already been answered.

No, they haven’t. That’s why so many people are repeating the same questions, or saying basically the same things. 

Maybe you think you have addressed the issues being raised here, but you haven’t. 

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If you don't like or accept the answer, because it hasn't convinced you to change your position - that's perfectly OK,

It’s not so much that I don’t like these “answers”, but rather that I can’t accept them b/c in each and every instance you have failed to provide textual support. That’s not a theory, that’s fan fiction.

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but don't ask the same question again.

I won’t.

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Here is one example of your poor reading comprehension.

Thank you!

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All Great Houses is not the same thing as all Houses. The Starks of Winterfell were a 'Great House', while Houses Greystark, Karstark, Umber, etc are not.

Yes. And? 

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I have pointed to Rickard's choice of armor and spurs and his request for a trial by battle as indicators that he may have adopted the southern Andal practice of knighthood.

And many have already explained that none of those things point to Rickard being a knight. 

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Along with that is the fact that Brandon had a squire,

And? Squires are not for knights only. This has been said and backed up by many. On the other hand, you make assumptions that you can’t provide textual support for. 

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and that he entered the lists at the Tourney at Harrenhal, which I believe was a traditional tourney for knights.

Support for the TaH being for knights only? You’re twisting this into a pretzel... it’s the other way around: the fact that Brandon competed at Harrenhal supports the idea that the tourney did not have strict participation rules. Which, in turn, also fits w/ the notion that Rhaegar was behind the tourney, and the idea was to have as many lords and great lords attend. 

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It's perfectly fine if you don't think the evidence is strong enough to prove that Brandon was a knight, but don't say I haven't provided any evidence.

You have provided no evidence. 

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The word 'evidence' doesn't necessarily equate to concrete proof. Evidence are the pieces of a puzzle - an outward sign or exhibit that is used to help discern the truth. By saying that you'll make it "easier" and "settle for hints" - that's just being rude.

I’m not sure what you’re on about here. I wasn’t rude at all. Must be my reading comprehension issues. 

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It's on me for using the wiki to support the claims that House Cassel practices knighthood, and that master-at-arms are usually knights, because the wiki is easily edited and both of these areas have been changed.

Where does it say house Cassel practices knighthood? I haven’t been able to find it anywhere. 

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Some things GRRM has said about knights:

This one was interesting:

Yes, all very interesting. However, none of it supports your claims. 

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Sorry, but there was some weird pasting going on and I couldn't insert individual comments for three separate topics above.

1. It was very likely Rhaegar was behind the Harrenhal tourney.

This is actually just something that King Aerys suspected due to Varys's influence,

That’s what you think, and that’s cool. But the truth is, we don’t know. I think it makes perfect sense that Rhaegar was indeed behind it, but it’s impossible to be sure at this point. 

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but was there any truth in his whispers? We really don't have anything more to confirm that it was more than simply a tourney to celebrate a return to spring.

Yes, we don’t know for sure. 

But the tourney can’t have been just “to celebrate a return to spring”, unless whoever came up w/ the idea had a crystal ball. After all, tourneys like this aren’t planned for the next weekend, or in a fortnight. And in the case of the TaH, we know exactly when it was announced, and when it happened. The time between its announcement and the actual event is roughly one year. So, see, it can’t have been a celebration of the return to spring as you claim, because no one could have know spring - false or not - would be retuning in a year. 

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If it were deliberately planned to gather support for a coup, why didn't all the lords of the conspiring houses attend?

Which were the conspiring houses? And how do you know that? 

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Rickard Stark stayed home, as did Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, and Tywin Lannister. At least, none of them are mentioned as attending, although Tywin is confirmed in the text as not being there.

We actually don’t know where they were, but what does it matter?

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2. Sandor's frequent refusals to be called a knight. 

Whether or not Sandor was an anointed knight or not - it doesn't really matter. People believed he was a knight. If people hadn't believed he was a knight he wouldn't have to keep denying that he was one. 

And? Whether some people thought of him as being a knight or not doesn’t matter. The people who do matter, those around him and in power I might add, know bloody well he isn’t one. So, Sandor isn’t a knight, and has entered a few tourneys at least. 

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3. This third point is very confusing, but I'll chalk it up to your reading comprehension again...

Thank you. 

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I asserted that once Sandor became a Kingsguard that he was officially a knight, even though Sandor continued to deny he was a knight, and you answered back: 

Nope. The text clearly says that both the dismissal of Barristan and the appointment of Sandor were first time ever events.

 

What??? Do you mean the appointment of a non-knight into the position of a knight?

My previous reply in bold above, and your reply to that underlined. 

1st underlined: yes, you asserted that once Sandor was appointed to the KG he officially became a knight. That assertion is incorrect, as the text clearly shows. 

2nd underlined: no. What I mean is that Joffrey and Cersei changed the rules b/c they wanted and they could, and did two things regarding the KG that hadn’t been done before: sack Barristan and appoint a non-knight. I thought I had been perfectly clear, but maybe I suffer from writing comprehension issues well. 

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Why don't you stop following?  You've read it. Don't believe it. You've had your say. Why continue?

It’s a free tinternet, and I’ll do what I want. But cheers for the advice. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

A poll is needed. For posterity. 

Here it is:

 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That must be it, surely.

No, they haven’t. That’s why so many people are repeating the same questions, or saying basically the same things. 

Maybe you think you have addressed the issues being raised here, but you haven’t. 

It’s not so much that I don’t like these “answers”, but rather that I can’t accept them b/c in each and every instance you have failed to provide textual support. That’s not a theory, that’s fan fiction.

I won’t.

Thank you!

Yes. And? 

And many have already explained that none of those things point to Rickard being a knight. 

And? Squires are not for knights only. This has been said and backed up by many. On the other hand, you make assumptions that you can’t provide textual support for. 

Support for the TaH being for knights only? You’re twisting this into a pretzel... it’s the other way around: the fact that Brandon competed at Harrenhal supports the idea that the tourney did not have strict participation rules. Which, in turn, also fits w/ the notion that Rhaegar was behind the tourney, and the idea was to have as many lords and great lords attend. 

You have provided no evidence. 

I’m not sure what you’re on about here. I wasn’t rude at all. Must be my reading comprehension issues. 

Where does it say house Cassel practices knighthood? I haven’t been able to find it anywhere. 

Yes, all very interesting. However, none of it supports your claims. 

That’s what you think, and that’s cool. But the truth is, we don’t know. I think it makes perfect sense that Rhaegar was indeed behind it, but it’s impossible to be sure at this point. 

Yes, we don’t know for sure. 

But the tourney can’t have been just “to celebrate a return to spring”, unless whoever came up w/ the idea had a crystal ball. After all, tourneys like this aren’t planned for the next weekend, or in a fortnight. And in the case of the TaH, we know exactly when it was announced, and when it happened. The time between its announcement and the actual event is roughly one year. So, see, it can’t have been a celebration of the return to spring as you claim, because no one could have know spring - false or not - would be retuning in a year. 

Which were the conspiring houses? And how do you know that? 

We actually don’t know where they were, but what does it matter?

And? Whether some people thought of him as being a knight or not doesn’t matter. The people who do matter, those around him and in power I might add, know bloody well he isn’t one. So, Sandor isn’t a knight, and has entered a few tourneys at least. 

Thank you. 

My previous reply in bold above, and your reply to that underlined. 

1st underlined: yes, you asserted that once Sandor was appointed to the KG he officially became a knight. That assertion is incorrect, as the text clearly shows. 

2nd underlined: no. What I mean is that Joffrey and Cersei changed the rules b/c they wanted and they could, and did two things regarding the KG that hadn’t been done before: sack Barristan and appoint a non-knight. I thought I had been perfectly clear, but maybe I suffer from writing comprehension issues well. 

It’s a free tinternet, and I’ll do what I want. But cheers for the advice. 

Your constant badgering isn't debate - it's heckling, and I have no patience for hecklers.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

A poll is needed. For posterity. 

Here it is:

 

Ah, yes, because being in the majority makes you right. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

Just now, Feather Crystal said:

Ah, yes, because being in the majority makes you right. 

Not at all. Just to see what more people think. 

Opinions are neither right nor wrong.

 

[Melifeather]

I've presented my theory and have nothing further to add. This discussion has deteriorated and I see no reason to continue. I am going to ask to lock this discussion. Thank you everyone for reading and for your contributions.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Your constant badgering isn't debate - it's heckling, and I have no patience for hecklers.

Double checking, b/c I have poor reading comprehension... you resort to insulting me, don’t address any of the issues I raised, and I’m badgering you? Hmmm don’t really see it that way, but again, I have poor reading comprehension, innit.

[Ser Leftwich]

On 2/6/2019 at 11:27 AM, Feather Crystal said:

What's the backstory on Rickard Stark? Why did he send Ned to foster with Jon Arryn, and what did Lady Barbary mean when she said Rickard had 'southron ambitions'?

Brandon and Catelyn were 12 years old when Rickard and Hoster negotiated their marriage alliance. Ned was 8 years old at the time, and it's mentioned that he was sent to Jon Arryn to foster, but I suspect he was actually sent there to be his squire along side Robert Baratheon so that they could train together as knights. Ned talked about some of his training including being taught how to give orders in a booming voice.

 

This is either deliberately misleading or wrong. Catelyn was 12 when she was promised, not Brandon, he was 14 or 15. So The way the sentence, "Ned was 8 years old at the time" implies it was at the same time, as the arranged marriage, which is incorrect, Ned went to Jon Arryn ~4-5 years before the arranged marriage. We don't know the why, anything else is speculation.

 

On 2/6/2019 at 11:27 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Squires remain with their knights until they themselves are knighted. Ned was still living in the Eyrie with Jon until he was 17 years old, and only left after Jon Arryn defied King Aerys and refused to give up Ned and Robert.

 

This is also misleading/wrong. Ned was not still living in the Eyrie. He was a sometimes guest of Jon after he turned 16. (Also, GRRM explicitly says Ned is not training for knighthood, so therefore, he is not. And it is not a little white lie.) SSM

"He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find."

On 2/6/2019 at 11:27 AM, Feather Crystal said:

When Rickard was younger he fought alongside Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Prince Aerys Targaryen, and Tywin Lannister during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. It’s quite possible that Rickard was introduced to the tradition of knighthood from these war time friends.

We don't know that Rickard was involved at all. This is not supported in the text anywhere and is pure speculation/fan fic.

On 2/6/2019 at 11:27 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Where did you think young Bran Stark got is desire to become a knight from? Why, Maester Luwin of course!

 

Just as likely to have come from Septa Mordane and Septon Chayle, who also tutored Bran and the other children. (Also, remember, Ned had the sept built for Catelyn. If Rickard was devout of the 7, wouldn't he have had one built?)

One leap of logic as a starting point maybe, but this is continuous leap after leap after leap, some which have been directly refuted by the author. When so much of the grounding of a theory is inaccurate, misleading, and/or just plain wrong, why should it be considered?

[Clegane'sPup]

On 2/6/2019 at 1:27 PM, Feather Crystal said:

What's the backstory on Rickard Stark? Why did he send Ned to foster with Jon Arryn, and what did Lady Barbary mean when she said Rickard had 'southron ambitions'?

Brandon and Catelyn were 12 years old when Rickard and Hoster negotiated their marriage alliance. Ned was 8 years old at the time, and it's mentioned that he was sent to Jon Arryn to foster, but I suspect he was actually sent there to be his squire along side Robert Baratheon so that they could train together as knights. Ned talked about some of his training including being taught how to give orders in a booming voice.

Some squires choose to never become a knight, and live the rest of their lives as squires. This may be because the individual does not have the inclination to live a knight's martial lifestyle, or does not have the funds to properly equip himself. According to George R. R. Martin:
 

Squires remain with their knights until they themselves are knighted. Ned was still living in the Eyrie with Jon until he was 17 years old, and only left after Jon Arryn defied King Aerys and refused to give up Ned and Robert.

In ASOIAF there’s a ceremony tied to the Faith of the Seven where the candidate would participate in an elaborate religious ceremony where he would be presented with his sword, followed by an overnight vigil in the sept. His tools and sword would be placed upon the altar to be blessed by a septon.

Of course, any knight can make a knight, usually on the battlefield as a reward for courageous service. This is called ‘earning your spurs’. The main point is that knighthood is reserved for followers of the Faith. The northmen, who are descendants of the First Men and followed the old gods, were more like Viking warriors in culture. They may have worn a few bits of metal for protection, but most of the time they simply wore boiled leather and furs.

When Rickard was younger he fought alongside Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Prince Aerys Targaryen, and Tywin Lannister during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. It’s quite possible that Rickard was introduced to the tradition of knighthood from these war time friends.

It’s important to point out that Rickard promised Brandon to Catelyn, and sent Ned to Jon Arryn, a full six years prior to the Rebellion, so his actions had nothing to do with the Rebellion. This is why I believe that when Lady Barbary Dustin accuses Rickard of having ‘southron ambitions’, and how she blamed ‘grey rat’ Maester Walys for his influence, that what she’s really talking about was Rickard’s conversion to the Faith. Maesters are more than healers - they are educators, and part of the education they provide is on the Faith of the Seven - complete with exciting tales of honorable and courageous knights. Where did you think young Bran Stark got is desire to become a knight from? Why, Maester Luwin of course!

When King Aerys summoned Rickard to answer for his son’s crimes, Rickard dressed in the armor of a knight:

Ned's brother Brandon is confirmed in the text as being a knight. We know this, because he had a squire:

Thanks to essosiwatch on HoBaW for the squire passages!

If we have confirmation that Brandon was a knight with his own squire, then that gives credence to my theory that Rickard was also a knight, and that the reason why Ned was sent to the Vale was to become Jon Arryn's squire. Ned trained along side Jon's other squire, Robert Baratheon. They both remained in the Eyrie up until the Rebellion, because neither one of them had been knighted yet.

What difference does it make to the story whether Rickard or Brandon are knights.? A knight can make a knight as per Dunk in one of the short story's. My feeble memory does not remember how Jorah became a knight. 

Looking at the below Arya stuffies in the first book Arya calls Sandor a knight. It revealed later that Sandor isn't a knight and does not want to be a knight.  When Joff and Cersei replaced Barry with  Sandor, Sandor refused to say the KG vows. Sandor was given the white cloak anyway.

A Game of Thrones - Arya I    The master-at-arms put a hand on Robb's shoulder to quiet him. "Live steel is too dangerous. I will permit you tourney swords, with blunted edges."    Joffrey said nothing, but a man strange to Arya, a tall knight with black hair and burn scars on his face, pushed forward in front of the prince. "This is your prince. Who are you to tell him he may not have an edge on his sword, ser?"    "Master-at-arms of Winterfell, Clegane, and you would do well not to forget it."/

A Game of Thrones - Arya I   "Are you training women here?" the burned man wanted to know. He was muscled like a bull.    "I am training knights," Ser Rodrik said pointedly. "They will have steel when they are ready. When they are of an age."    The burned man looked at Robb. "How old are you, boy?"/

What does Sandor tell Sansa knight are for? Knights are for killing, as in fighting battles or perhaps defending their liege.

A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV   "Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it's all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing." He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel./

Please do not try to bait me by questioning my reading comprehension. Would you say that to a poster in Heresy.  No, I think not.  BTW, I find nothing faulty with @kissdbyfire reading comprehension.

After all the spinning and adjectives and adverbs what relevance to the story does Rickard or Brandon being knights make?

In book one Rodrick said he was training knights. I read that to mean Rodrick was training Eddard's true born sons and his bastard to fight and try to survive. There was no talk of vows and honor.

Thorne supposedly was a knight. Thorne ended up at the Wall teaching what? How to fight.

On 2/6/2019 at 1:27 PM, Feather Crystal said:

If we have confirmation that Brandon was a knight with his own squire, then that gives credence to my theory that Rickard was also a knight, and that the reason why Ned was sent to the Vale was to become Jon Arryn's squire. Ned trained along side Jon's other squire, Robert Baratheon. They both remained in the Eyrie up until the Rebellion, because neither one of them had been knighted yet.

The write up was interesting. Good job up until the last part. That is fun speculation.

A knight can knight a knight according to martin's works.

Brandon was a ward of Tully. Who do you think knighted him? Blackfish? I'm asking.

 

 

 

 

[Ser Leftwich]

4 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Brandon was a ward of Tully. Who do you think knighted him? Blackfish? I'm asking.

 

@Clegane'sPup

Brandon was never a ward of any Tully.