A Faithful Knight in Winterfell

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Yeah I don't think one has to be a Knight to enter a tourney.

Go all the way back to Criston Cole, wasn't he knighted after the Tourney for Viserys I ascension? 

Bran and Luwin are talking and this is said:

Seems pretty clear the Northern families who follow the OG don't do Knighthood, unless they get it for some great service like Jorah.

Despite this, those three thousand armored lances are the functional equivalent of a Knight.

I think GRRM's denial of Ned training as a Knight makes it clear.

Lady Dustin labels Rickards' searching outside of the North for partners for his children as 'Southron Ambitions', I think it is a bit of a jump to say the ambition was Knighthood its self.

Her labeling the marriage search as 'Southron Ambitions' show that she was pissed she didn't get to marry Brandon, and shocked that a northern wife wasn't chosen. That is how I took it.

Interesting idea, I enjoyed reading the theory.

Yeah, but I think the knighthood ceremony it can vary. Luwin talks about oils and septons, and elsewhere we hear about vigils or barefoot treks, but then we are told that "any knight can make a knight." Dunk says Ser Arlan knighted him, but there is reason to believe this is not true, and it probably didn't involve septons and oils and such if it did.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yeah, but I think the knighthood ceremony it can vary. Luwin talks about oils and septons, and elsewhere we hear about vigils or barefoot treks, but then we are told that "any knight can make a knight." Dunk says Ser Arlan knighted him, but there is reason to believe this is not true, and it probably didn't involve septons and oils and such if it did.

With that being said - would it be fair to subdivide knights in to 2 categories? Those who go the whole hog from Page to Squire to 'Annointed Knight'. Then those who are simply knighted by another Knight. The latter seem to be more knights in name only? 

Is the anointing the whole bit about oils and septs etc? Or is the word anointed synonymous with created?

They seem so far from one another.

[Melifeather]

What I think might be going on in the north is that they follow the training of knights without the religious Faith of the Seven ceremonies. They simply hire a knight to be their master-at-arms so that after the boys go through the steps of page, squire, and martial training - the master-at-arms knights them when they turn 16, or whenever they are deemed full grown.

[Melifeather]

On 2/6/2019 at 4:30 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Interesting idea, I enjoyed reading the theory.

At least I've got this going for me.   Thanks for the compliment.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

At least I've got this going for me.   Thanks for the compliment.

You are welcome! This thread has led me to read more deeply in to Knighthood and think more about how it knits in with the current story, and the history that leads up to the present. 

When I went through AGOT for the first time I remember thinking about Bran wishing to be a Knight, and I thought it was significant how much time was spent talking about knights, and how some of the Stark children were so infatuated with the tales of old, and becoming knights themselves. It does play a big role in the overall story and who knows maybe more of this stuff will pop up in TWOW?  Bran flashbacks could go to so many places. A look back at Rickard at the time of the whole 'Southron Ambitions' stuff could thrust this question of knighthood and the 7 back in to the forefront of the story. Who knows?

[John Suburbs]

7 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

With that being said - would it be fair to subdivide knights in to 2 categories? Those who go the whole hog from Page to Squire to 'Annointed Knight'. Then those who are simply knighted by another Knight. The latter seem to be more knights in name only? 

Is the anointing the whole bit about oils and septs etc? Or is the word anointed synonymous with created?

They seem so far from one another.

There does seem to be a difference between a knight and an anointed knight. When reports are brought to court about Gregor Clegane's atrocities, Pycelle notes that he is an "anointed knight." So I'll bet that a highborn who goes through the whole rigmorale is considered to be more of a true knight than some hedge knight who got tapped behind an inn somewhere.

And yes, anointing is the act of smearing or rubbing with holy oils by a religious leader.

[kissdbyfire]

On 2/8/2019 at 12:29 PM, Feather Crystal said:

What I think might be going on in the north is that they follow the training of knights without the religious Faith of the Seven ceremonies. They simply hire a knight to be their master-at-arms so that after the boys go through the steps of page, squire, and martial training - the master-at-arms knights them when they turn 16, or whenever they are deemed full grown.

Two questions:

1. do we hear of any other northern house having a knight as their master-of-arms? I don’t recall any.

2. I still don’t understand the insistence on northerners being knighted. Now you are saying that it’s not just Rickard and Brandon, but boys in the north in general. Even though there is no mention of anything that suggests this at all. And I’m making a real effort here to understand why, but am failing miserably. Because there are no hints pointing to it, but also because... what’s the point?

ETA: adding to he 2nd question, we even have Martin himself saying knighthood isnt a thing in the north, so, there you go. 

[Melifeather]

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Two questions:

1. do we hear of any other northern house having a knight as their master-of-arms? I don’t recall any.

2. I still don’t understand the insistence on northerners being knighted. Now you are saying that it’s not just Rickard and Brandon, but boys in the north in general. Even though there is no mention of anything that suggests this at all. And I’m making a real effort here to understand why, but am failing miserably. Because there are no hints pointing to it, but also because... what’s the point?

ETA: adding to he 2nd question, we even have Martin himself saying knighthood isnt a thing in the north, so, there you go. 

From the wiki:

Master-at-arms is a position in a noble household, usually filled by a knight, charged with training the garrison, as well as noble children, in fighting skills.[1][2] They can provide blunted weapons for training instead of live steel.[3] Masters-at-arms are present at most castles in the Seven Kingdoms, although they are not used by the crannogmen.[4]

 

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

From the wiki:

Master-at-arms is a position in a noble household, usually filled by a knight, charged with training the garrison, as well as noble children, in fighting skills.[1][2] They can provide blunted weapons for training instead of live steel.[3] Masters-at-arms are present at most castles in the Seven Kingdoms, although they are not used by the crannogmen.[4]

 

At work at the mo, so can't really get into it. But the wiki quote... nothing new there. And you haven't answered the quesrions I asked.

[acwill07]

On 2/6/2019 at 1:27 PM, Feather Crystal said:

What's the backstory on Rickard Stark? Why did he send Ned to foster with Jon Arryn, and what did Lady Barbary mean when she said Rickard had 'southron ambitions'?

Brandon and Catelyn were 12 years old when Rickard and Hoster negotiated their marriage alliance. Ned was 8 years old at the time, and it's mentioned that he was sent to Jon Arryn to foster, but I suspect he was actually sent there to be his squire along side Robert Baratheon so that they could train together as knights. Ned talked about some of his training including being taught how to give orders in a booming voice.

Some squires choose to never become a knight, and live the rest of their lives as squires. This may be because the individual does not have the inclination to live a knight's martial lifestyle, or does not have the funds to properly equip himself. According to George R. R. Martin:
 

Squires remain with their knights until they themselves are knighted. Ned was still living in the Eyrie with Jon until he was 17 years old, and only left after Jon Arryn defied King Aerys and refused to give up Ned and Robert.

In ASOIAF there’s a ceremony tied to the Faith of the Seven where the candidate would participate in an elaborate religious ceremony where he would be presented with his sword, followed by an overnight vigil in the sept. His tools and sword would be placed upon the altar to be blessed by a septon.

Of course, any knight can make a knight, usually on the battlefield as a reward for courageous service. This is called ‘earning your spurs’. The main point is that knighthood is reserved for followers of the Faith. The northmen, who are descendants of the First Men and followed the old gods, were more like Viking warriors in culture. They may have worn a few bits of metal for protection, but most of the time they simply wore boiled leather and furs.

When Rickard was younger he fought alongside Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Prince Aerys Targaryen, and Tywin Lannister during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. It’s quite possible that Rickard was introduced to the tradition of knighthood from these war time friends.

It’s important to point out that Rickard promised Brandon to Catelyn, and sent Ned to Jon Arryn, a full six years prior to the Rebellion, so his actions had nothing to do with the Rebellion. This is why I believe that when Lady Barbary Dustin accuses Rickard of having ‘southron ambitions’, and how she blamed ‘grey rat’ Maester Walys for his influence, that what she’s really talking about was Rickard’s conversion to the Faith. Maesters are more than healers - they are educators, and part of the education they provide is on the Faith of the Seven - complete with exciting tales of honorable and courageous knights. Where did you think young Bran Stark got is desire to become a knight from? Why, Maester Luwin of course!

When King Aerys summoned Rickard to answer for his son’s crimes, Rickard dressed in the armor of a knight:

Ned's brother Brandon is confirmed in the text as being a knight. We know this, because he had a squire:

Thanks to essosiwatch on HoBaW for the squire passages!

If we have confirmation that Brandon was a knight with his own squire, then that gives credence to my theory that Rickard was also a knight, and that the reason why Ned was sent to the Vale was to become Jon Arryn's squire. Ned trained along side Jon's other squire, Robert Baratheon. They both remained in the Eyrie up until the Rebellion, because neither one of them had been knighted yet.

Brandon was not a knight and having a squire is certainly not evidence otherwise.

[acwill07]

On 2/6/2019 at 3:00 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't believe we know if Rickard was there at the War of the Ninepenny Kings. I don't remember his name being mentioned in connection with that. 

Rickard's mother was Marna Locke. We are introduced to three Lockes in the story. Lord Ondrow Locke who is now a relic and a lord, so if he was a knight at some point, we don't know. But the other two Lockes in the story, Ser Donnel Locke who was killed at the Red Wedding and Ser Mallador Locke who died on the Great Ranging are both knights.

There's a good chance that Rickard's uncles and cousins on his mother's side, if he had any could have been knights. 

There's also Ser Rodrik Cassel who may have grown up with Rickard. I personally don't think knighthood was a concept Rickard Stark had to be introduced to by southron knights and lords. There are northern lords in the story and considering the fact that Brandon entered the tourney at Harrenhal and those are apparently reserved to knights, the odds that he was one are I think good.

Tournaments are not reserved for only knights.  In GOT when they stage the tourney in KL in Eddard's honor, Jory and Alan both enter the lists, and neither one of them are knights.

The OP of this thread is making a massive amount of assumptions.  Rickard Stark foregoing the old gods for the seven?  LOL yea ok.

[acwill07]

On 2/6/2019 at 5:24 PM, Feather Crystal said:

People believed Sandor to be a knight. Sandor despises the hypocrisy of knighthood, but that doesn't mean he wasn't trained as one. His brother Gregor was a landed knight - knighted by Rhaegar Targaryen.

Was Sandor officially a participant in the tourney? Or did he just step in the stop his brother from killing Loras?

Dude you are making stuff up here.  Sandor was NOT a knight.  He hated knights.  He was never dubbed and never did a vigil.  It doesn't matter what you think people viewed him as, the fact of the matter is that he's not a knight according to the text.  

He even bitches at people for calling him "Ser," and corrects them.  You are now trying to bend things to your theory, which really has zero textual evidence.  Pretty much every part of your theory is filled with massive assumptions.

[Lynesse]

This concept that only knights can enter tourneys (which is said in The Hedge Knight to Dunk) is either extremely fuzzy or untrue. We hear about Sandor Clegane, Jory Cassell and Brienne entering tourneys, none of them are knights.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Lynesse said:

This concept that only knights can enter tourneys (which is said in The Hedge Knight to Dunk) is either extremely fuzzy or untrue. We hear about Sandor Clegane, Jory Cassell and Brienne entering tourneys, none of them are knights.

The latter, as shown in the quote provided by @Nittanian and yours truly n the previous page (link)

“As to your questions regarding the participation or non-participation of sellswords, squires, freeriders and the like, again, I don't see that as the difference as being chronological so much as geographic. The Reach is the heart of the chivalric tradition in the Seven Kingdoms, the place where knighthood is most universally esteemed, and therefore the place where the master of the games is most likely to devise and apply stringent rules. In Dorne and Storm's End and the riverlands and the Vale, things are perhaps a little less strict, and north of the Neck where the old gods still reign and knights are rare, they make up their own rules as they go along.

This has real world parallels as well. In the high middle ages, France was the apex of chivalry. German, English, Italian, and Spanish knights followed the fashions the French chevaliers set, although they did not always get them right. And if you went further afield still, to places like Scotland, Hungary, and Georgia, customs diverged even more.

The personalities of the sponsoring lords and their master-at-arms are another factor. Robert Baratheon was not a great respector of old traditions, and he would hardly have wanted a "knight's only" tournament to honor Ned, who was not a knight. Lord Ashford of Ashford, on the other hand, was trying to curry favor with Baelor Breakspear, the preeminent tourney knight of his time.”

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, Lynesse said:

This concept that only knights can enter tourneys (which is said in The Hedge Knight to Dunk) is either extremely fuzzy or untrue. We hear about Sandor Clegane, Jory Cassell and Brienne entering tourneys, none of them are knights.

The thing is that the organizer of the tourney can fix the rules. Sure, tourneys follow a long tradition and share similarities, but they still offer room for flexibility depending on the circumstances. There are also a lot of unwritten rules like, who is appropriate to name as Queen of Beauty, etc

[rotting sea cow]

On 2/9/2019 at 10:35 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Two questions:

1. do we hear of any other northern house having a knight as their master-of-arms? I don’t recall any.

Certainly the Manderlys and houses closely associated to them have knights as master of arms, even if we don't hear that. Otherwise, no.

 

On 2/9/2019 at 10:35 PM, kissdbyfire said:

2. I still don’t understand the insistence on northerners being knighted. Now you are saying that it’s not just Rickard and Brandon, but boys in the north in general. Even though there is no mention of anything that suggests this at all. And I’m making a real effort here to understand why, but am failing miserably. Because there are no hints pointing to it, but also because... what’s the point?

ETA: adding to he 2nd question, we even have Martin himself saying knighthood isnt a thing in the north, so, there you go. 

I think OP should read more about the so-called Southron ambitions and what may have motivated them. Hint: It wasn't a religious or cultural thing.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

From the wiki:

Master-at-arms is a position in a noble household, usually filled by a knight, charged with training the garrison, as well as noble children, in fighting skills.[1][2] They can provide blunted weapons for training instead of live steel.[3] Masters-at-arms are present at most castles in the Seven Kingdoms, although they are not used by the crannogmen.[4]

 

Could Ser Rodrik have been the Master of Arms at Winterfell partly because Cat worshipped the 7? Ned had a sept constructed for her, or one existed already and she used it - I don't remember. My point being that it could have just been his way of letting her have some say in how her children were raised, rather than being the purpose of having a Ser as MoA. Would it not make a Southron mother feel better to know her children were taught swordplay by a Ser? That's what I'm thinking.

Strong Sam Stone - a bastard who is a Ser. Surely he falls in to the other sort of knight category? Would he have been a page etc etc? I suppose it depends on how bastardly he was treated...

Iron Emmett becomes MoA @ Castle Black and there is no mention of him having been knighted that I can remember. 

Leathers then becomes MoA and he is a Wildling lol.

 

[Nittanian]

Dagmer Cleftjaw is the master-at-arms of Pyke.

[Melifeather]

19 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

At work at the mo, so can't really get into it. But the wiki quote... nothing new there. And you haven't answered the quesrions I asked.

Actually I did, and you skipped over some of my responses. You also misinterpreted what I said. I never said all of the houses in the north had a master at arms that were knights, but according to the wiki all of the great houses did except for Greywater Watch.

9 hours ago, acwill07 said:

Brandon was not a knight and having a squire is certainly not evidence otherwise.

While it's not confirmed either yes or no, I think there is evidence to suggest that he was a knight. 

9 hours ago, acwill07 said:

Tournaments are not reserved for only knights.  In GOT when they stage the tourney in KL in Eddard's honor, Jory and Alan both enter the lists, and neither one of them are knights.

The OP of this thread is making a massive amount of assumptions.  Rickard Stark foregoing the old gods for the seven?  LOL yea ok.

While Jory is never referred to as "Ser", neither are other knights called Ser by their closest friends and family. House Cassel is a house that practices knighthood, and Rory's uncle Rodrik is a knight. While not explicitly confirmed nor denied in the text IMO it's not out of the realm of possibility that Jory had been knighted. If your house practiced knighthood and your uncle was a knight it seems likely that you would also train to be a knight. Which Alan are you referring to? 

As to the tourney for Ned, GRRM did say Robert didn't hold to traditional rules. The Hand tourney isn't applicable to the OP - the tourney at Harrenhal is what is important, and whether or not Lord Whent would stick to traditional rules.

9 hours ago, acwill07 said:

Dude you are making stuff up here.  Sandor was NOT a knight.  He hated knights.  He was never dubbed and never did a vigil.  It doesn't matter what you think people viewed him as, the fact of the matter is that he's not a knight according to the text.  

He even bitches at people for calling him "Ser," and corrects them.  You are now trying to bend things to your theory, which really has zero textual evidence.  Pretty much every part of your theory is filled with massive assumptions.

You're missing my point. Sandor hated the hypocrisy of knighthood, but there's no doubt that people around him considered him a knight - that is why he repeated corrected others for calling him a knight. 

6 hours ago, Lynesse said:

This concept that only knights can enter tourneys (which is said in The Hedge Knight to Dunk) is either extremely fuzzy or untrue. We hear about Sandor Clegane, Jory Cassell and Brienne entering tourneys, none of them are knights.

Sandor was perceived to be a knight by the people around him, and when he became a Kingsguard he was officially a knight. It's a title he despised and constantly berated, but his eligibility would never have been questioned.

I've already answered my thoughts about Jory. His house practiced knighthood, and his uncle was a knight and master at arms. Jory wouldn't have become captain of guards had he not completed his training.

Brienne was accepted as one of Renly's Rainbow Guard, which is a kind of Kingsguard, which in my mind is a kind of knighthood. I don't recall Brienne entering a tourney, so I would be grateful if you would enlighten me with supporting text. The same goes for Sandor - I don't remember if he so much as competed in a tourney as stepped in to stop his brother from killing Loras. He was always guarding Joffrey, so I don't think he ever had leave to compete.

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Certainly the Manderlys and houses closely associated to them have knights as master of arms, even if we don't hear that. Otherwise, no.

 

I think OP should read more about the so-called Southron ambitions and what may have motivated them. Hint: It wasn't a religious or cultural thing.

The OP was intended to present the evidence that suggests Rickard became a knight, which in turn provides an alternate explanation for 'southron ambitions'. I don't believe Lady Barbary's term is as provocative as it seems.

I've theorized in the past about a grand conspiracy in my Tywin + Lyanna = Dead girl essay, but have since changed my mind about there being a grand conspiracy prior to the rebellion. The only person I am uncertain about is Jon Arryn. I think he and Tywin communicated behind the scenes, but I don't believe Hoster, Rickard, or Steffon were part of a conspiracy before Lyanna was abducted.

I do believe Tywin manipulated the Riverland and Northern Houses into turning against the Targaryens, but consider this: if Rickard were involved in a grand conspiracy, why didn't he attend the tourney at Harrenhal? I don't think Hoster is even mentioned as attending. Tywin is conspicuously absent, because he was upset with King Aegon taking Jaime as a Kingsguard. 

Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen went to the tourney to watch Brandon compete, and if he hadn't wanted to compete - probably none of them would have gone, so I think his becoming a knight would be a significant mitigating factor. It's a domino trigger that set off a whole chain reaction. 

It's fine if people don't agree with what I've presented. It is called a theory after all. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

You're missing my point. Sandor hated the hypocrisy of knighthood, but there's no doubt that people around him considered him a knight - that is why he repeated corrected others for calling him a knight. 

Sandor was perceived to be a knight by the people around him, and when he became a Kingsguard he was officially a knight. It's a title he despised and constantly berated, but his eligibility would never have been questioned.

No he was never officially a knight!!!

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Sansa V

"The Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard have always been knights," Ser Boros said firmly.

"Until now," the Hound said in his deep rasp, and Ser Boros fell silent.

He still isn't a knight!!!